Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
Holy crap...so much animosity on this thread and on the GMR one...
I haven't always agreed with Disneys redos/updates/plusing...but I've been able to look past most of it, for the most part anyway. For whatever reason, this Frozen maelstrom makeover just really, REALLY bugs me. Maybe it's the straw that broke the camels back, I don't know. In no way do I want Disney to be a museum and never change. But to me this is such a blatant in your face, short sighted, out of place cash grab that I just can't wrap my head around it. I respect the people that welcome this change but no matter how I look at it, it never makes any sense. Maybe I just have to try harder to get over the fact that Disney no longer cares about what it used to and stop holding them to the standard that they set for themselves. This is the new Disney but I just can't accept it.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
Even the one comment in the comments section on that website is against the Frozen layover. That says a lot. An article/website that seems very much in favor of the layover still has members saying its a bad idea. The Disney FB page is about 99% negative comments, Disneys Twitter is mostly negative comments as well. If Disney was ever going to listen to REAL customer feedabck (not the forced surveys they do in the park) now is the time. Wont happen though. The Frozen mania is already starting to cool off with kids. It seems more adults are holding onto this movie now.

My brother is currently at WDW with his family. He has an 8 year old daughter and her best friend who is also 8, is with them. They went to MNSSHP last night and the two girls dressed as Snow White and Jasmine. They picked out their costumes 2 months ago. They used to love Frozen, but no so much now. He sent a ton of pictures and the only people I saw dressed as Anna or Elsa were adults. Im sure there were a few kids there dressed as them, but not many. Thats not to say the Frozen/Maelstrom hybrid attraction wont be popular, but since they are in such a rush to get Frozen in the parks, they should probly step it up construction wise. Yeah right. They built most of EPCOT faster than it will take them to remake this already exiting area. That is quite sad.
 

bebert

Well-Known Member
A Frozen/Maelstrom ride would be fine. The thought of them completely tearing out Maelstrom for a complete from ride irks me to my core. Maelstrom is personally one of my top rides at EPCOT. I know it is dated and not very exciting but, that is not why I love it. I love it because of the laughter and memories I have of riding with my children.
 

Kitty17794

Member
I'm excited for the ride. Do I think it could have gone elsewhere? Yes. But MK would be the likely appropriate place for it, and there really isn't room at the moment after all the expansion. So Epcot/Norway is the next best thing. I've always personally wanted more of a Disney presence at Epcot anyway.... it was never my favorite as a kid because when I went to Disney parks, I wanted... well... Disney. lol. I'm sure most children feel the same way now. This is a way for Disney to draw crowds (and that child/family demographic) into Epcot. So its a smart business decision on their end.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Except, as noted, there's plenty of bleed over among the cultures. For example, one of the many libations to be had at the Norway Pavilion is the tasty Aquavit (usually consumed in the Linie Aquavit Glacial Shot... mmmm....). However, that drink seems to have been a Danish invention.
A year is not long enough for an American film to become a part of Norway's storytelling traditions.

No offense but that is what it was, I was asking what it is today. It's changed over the decades, this recent move is not a departure from those previous changes. Although we don't have time machines if we did they would be at Epcot I guess :)
How has it changed? What is the new focus? It may not be all that good at its focus, but it is still there. But why does that matter if you don't care?

But MK would be the likely appropriate place for it, and there really isn't room at the moment after all the expansion. So Epcot/Norway is the next best thing. I've always personally wanted more of a Disney presence at Epcot anyway....
The Magic Kingdom is larger than Disneyland but has less to do, so how is there not room? And what is a "Disney presence?" Why is something introduced in a theme park not "Disney?"
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
The Magic Kingdom is larger than Disneyland but has less to do, so how is there not room? And what is a "Disney presence?" Why is something introduced in a theme park not "Disney?"
Exactly! A lot of things at Disney world that are the most "Disney" to me have nothing to do with a character or movie. As a kid, sea base alpha or spaceship earth were as much Disney to me as mickey mouse.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I'm excited for the ride. Do I think it could have gone elsewhere? Yes. But MK would be the likely appropriate place for it, and there really isn't room at the moment after all the expansion. So Epcot/Norway is the next best thing. I've always personally wanted more of a Disney presence at Epcot anyway.... it was never my favorite as a kid because when I went to Disney parks, I wanted... well... Disney. lol. I'm sure most children feel the same way now. This is a way for Disney to draw crowds (and that child/family demographic) into Epcot. So its a smart business decision on their end.

Nice posting. Well said.

There is room at the MK for Frozen but too many people cling to IaSW in its present location. So, as you say, this is the next best location. And they seem to be doing this right if you consider the timeframes. They want this asap (unlike some other projects) and yet it will take awhile anyway. I expect a very nice addition to World Showcase.
 

prberk

Well-Known Member
A year is not long enough for an American film to become a part of Norway's storytelling traditions.


How has it changed? What is the new focus? It may not be all that good at its focus, but it is still there. But why does that matter if you don't care?


The Magic Kingdom is larger than Disneyland but has less to do, so how is there not room? And what is a "Disney presence?" Why is something introduced in a theme park not "Disney?"

I agree. At one time, someone could argue that "Space Mountain," the "Haunted Mansion," the "Hall of Presidents," "Main Street, USA," a barbershop quartet, the (GE) "Carousel of Progress," "True-Life Adventures" (films), "Thunder Mountain Railroad," "Pirates of the Caribbean," and "The Country Bear Jamboree" had no Disney presence, either, since they were original concepts without Disney animated movie characters. And "Tom Sawyer Island" was outright plagiarism, I guess.

My point is that Walt Disney did use movie tie-ins and animated characters some, but not always. And many of his and the company's best ideas were original. EPCOT itself was an original idea, and a good one at that. It is a part of the Disney universe, but like those orginal rides mentioned above, has its own identity, as well as a mission.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Except, as noted, there's plenty of bleed over among the cultures. For example, one of the many libations to be had at the Norway Pavilion is the tasty Aquavit (usually consumed in the Linie Aquavit Glacial Shot... mmmm....). However, that drink seems to have been a Danish invention.

Again... Danish because the Danes ruled Norway. Aquavit a Scandinavian thing, but largely Norwegian.. especially linear aquavit and potato based aquavit. Americans didn't invent Whiskey - but you still associate specific types with America and you'd still probably go on a whiskey tour in Kentucky :)

It seems people need reminding... Norway was ruled by a union with the Danes from the end of the middle ages until almost the 20th century!

From nearly 1400 to 1905 - Norway was part of Danish rule and for a short period Swedish. More than TWICE the time America has been it's own country. Through all modern times, up until the 1960s when oil was discovered, Norway was largely an introverted country stuck in time. Much of it's heritage and culture is shared with it's Scandinavian partners of Denmark, Sweden, and to a lesser extent, finland.

All this 'well it's Danish.. not Norwegian' is like trying to argue North Jersey vs South Jersey. They're both cut from the same cloth... yes they have things that are more one than the other.. but to try to draw a sharp line and isolate the two as unrelated is just asinine.

Norway is very proud of it's own heritage - but they are also comfortable with the idea that Scandinavia is real, much of their culture is rooted in common topics and the label is not some map maker's label.

The biggest difference today probably is.. a Norwegian would want to make fun of the Dane over how they talk :)
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
I've always personally wanted more of a Disney presence at Epcot anyway.... it was never my favorite as a kid because when I went to Disney parks, I wanted... well... Disney
I prefer the term 'cartoonified'. Because you ask for Disney, the man and his legacy, to be removed from EPCOT.

Disney never imagined an EPCOT - brick and mortar or its central themes in a park - to be about cartoons. To destroy EPCOT for cartoon ip's is not to add, but to remove Disney from it. Walt is turning in his cryochamber at his legacy not only being destroyed, but destroyed in his name and the company he and Roy build.
 

prberk

Well-Known Member
All-Ears.net had a very nice blog post from 2012 (including pictures) that may help put into some perspective the beauty of the original pavilion design, as well as an understanding of how many of us think regarding putting movie characters into it. I think it is a reasoned understanding of the situation, and why it is important to think about the unique Norwegian aspects as well.

Check it out. It is in two parts, with the link to the second part at the bottom. Here is part one: http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2012/01/norway_pavilion_part_one_1.html
 

prberk

Well-Known Member
Even then, it's not a good point. Look around Epcot. You'll find kids having fun pretzel cart or no.

What kids like pretzels anyway? They like ice cream better, so we should get rid of the pretzel carts and have all ice cream carts.

Because it is clear that we should plan all things for kids based solely on what they like the most (without even exposing them to anything else).

Culture, you say? What? When was that worth exploring with your kids?

And a theme park that is not centered on kids? What a crazy idea. That's like saying some cartoons and movies are not primarily for kids... Balderdash. We must all plan entirely around what an eight-year-old would already know about and want to do. No need to expose them to new things, or build anything that would be for older teens or for adults.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
What kids like pretzels anyway? They like ice cream better, so we should get rid of the pretzel carts and have all ice cream carts.

Because it is clear that we should plan all things for kids based solely on what they like the most (without even exposing them to anything else).

Culture, you say? What? When was that worth exploring with your kids?

And a theme park that is not centered on kids? What a crazy idea. That's like saying some cartoons and movies are not primarily for kids... Balderdash. We must all plan entirely around what an eight-year-old would already know about and want to do. No need to expose them to new things, or build anything that would be for older teens or for adults.

Also, and I know this will come as a shock to some - especially at Disney, but kids do grow up. Well, most of them anyway.
 

Mr. Peabody

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Disney is still directing creative aspects of WS with this change, so what has changed? As posted earlier Norway is embracing Frozen as a way to promote their country, it has increased the interest in Norway in millions of young minds around the world so why would they not?
The creative culture of Disney has changed. The harmony of the attractions and the themed environments in which they sit are the reasons for Disney's success in theme parks. When the overarching theme is eroded, all you are left with is an upscale Six Flags. The current Disney leadership is either ignorant of that or just doesn't care, and I think decisions like these diminish the theme park experience.

In response to your second question, if Frozen has increased interest in the country of Norway, then it stands to reason that a cartoon-free Norway Pavilion would also be more popular post-Frozen. In a theme park setting, Disney has the luxury of being able to use technology to make a more authentic cultural experience that is uniquely engaging.
 
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Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
EPCOT Center...

What is it?



Now, all that may seem silly (note the themed Disney characters, so while included, they were themed to the local culture in dress and other ways in WS)...

Now, let me explain what EPCOT (not Epcot) meant to me as a child growing up with it.

It's not just a collection of rides, it was the most well thought out large story experience ever...one that management forgot.

Lets start with Futureworld.

Your first experience is to see Spaceship Earth, the world's largest Geodesic Dome, and home to a story of how communication helped shape history, from ancient times to modern times.

It's been...crapped on. Now it's a somewhat loose story (sorry Dench lovers, but the ride isn't nearly as good as it was during the Cronkite or even the Irons era...though I don't remember the Dobkin ride well enough to comment). And the finale after ride (which, uniquely, doesn't dump you into a gift shop) doesn't focus on "communication", it focuses on Siemens. Not that the pavilion ending was always great, but at least when it was AT&T, we could see that, as that was their primary business...Siemans is not a great sponsor, but they have the right ideas. The experience doesn't hold the message it once did, but it still holds up.

So, you move on, into a "city of the future"...unlike Tomorrowland which is the "future that could, but will never be" and focuses more on the unrealistic and fantasy, Futureworld focuses on what is achievable within our lifetimes.

We start with the Communicores, West and East (and yes, they are Communicores, NOT Inneventions)...

Why?

Well, you just did this great ride that talked about how communication was so key to the development of civilization and human kind, and now, well, EVERY city is a "core of Communication"...

But, now it's nothing but a massive video game wall with systems and games that kids can play at home (boo), poorly done exhibits (yes I'm looking at you IBM, your exhibit is awful), social messages (I like the T Rowe Piggies, but what do they have to do with the "future"...unless we are Ferengi? And the "Fire prevention" experience, while fun, again, is lackluster for the message.

It's a far cry from what was there in the 80s and early 90s. Cutting edge animetronics, computers with touchscreens you could actually use, cutting edge simulators, and even a tour of the backdrop computer systems that powered the whole theme park.

Toss in there an Ice Cream Parlor that has long since given up being "futeristic" and a massive meet and greet walkthrough attraction, and of course the "Electric Umbrella"...a pretty bad QS offering.

Yeah, they aren't what they used to be, and they certainly aren't "futeristic".

So, then you go left, into the "technology" section of the park. And yes, the park is divided into two halves. The right is "Life Sciences" and follows a few design considerations (for example, the walkways are not straight), and the left is the "physical sciences" (all the walkways are straight, as long as you skip the water play places that have been added, and the coffee stands that have cropped up).

So, we go left.

First, you have Universe of Energy. Which, at one point, was an inspriational "educatainment" (I'll use that word again and again) ride that was fun, had great visuals, but also taught you something. And then, because ride statistics were low, I suppose, they thought it would be a good idea to revamp it, cut out the more unique visuals (yep, the rotating movie wall at the beginning) and include Ellen, because she'll be relevant for years!

But, the pavilion served an important purpose. All social and economic messages aside, Energy is important for civilization, and important for the future, and our exploration, conservation and understanding of it, how to create it and control it, and how to use it, is important. This pavilion taught an important lesson...until it was cartoonified.

<sigh>

So, they screwed that one up.

Then there's Wonders of Life. Which, is a neat Pavilion...doesn't really belong over here, and never did, but was well done when it was new. It is shuttered now, and is only used for various events like Food and Wine. What a waste.

And then there is Mission: Space, which is a such a cheaply done replacement for the epic Horizons that it is barely worth admitting. It's not a great thrill ride, it's not a great story, and it's not a great experience. The one thing it DOES have going for it is that the external design is really nice. But, as a ride, it belongs in HS, not in EPCOT, as it teaches you pretty much nothing, and focuses on the thrills alone.

I'll come back to Horizons, because this was the crown jewel of the park...at least for Tomorrowland, even though Spaceship Earth held the key slot (rightfully so, because without communication NONE of this other stuff would exist). But, skipping forward.

Then you have World of Motion, which has now been gutted into a cheap thrill ride.

Odyssey is pretty much falling along the same lines as Wonders of Life...forgettable and rarely used.

So, lets skip over to the other side of the park (right brain, left brain).

We start with the Seas, which used to have an immersive story that could inspire people to actually study marine biology, but now sits as an homage to a Pixar movie. It's not that I mind the inclusion of Nemo characters here, and the queue and experience at Turtle Talk is fantastic, as is what they did with the Shark Room. It engages people to LEARN. Classic Edutainment, and done quite well.

But, the Nemo ride itself is so bad. The queue is amazing, but the ride...disappointing.

In addition, the condition the pavilion is currently in, considering it's the THIRD LARGEST saltwater aquarium in the world is deplorable. They need to take a trip to ATL to see how it's done.

But, back in the day, it made you think, as a Guest...how cool would this be, living in the Seas? None of that exists today, and it's just a broken shell of what was once a great story, and great experience.

And, then you have the Land. Which has mostly devolved into a food court, a restaurant, a preachy movie (that, btw, makes fun of Theme Park development in a snarky way) and a queue for Sourin', which they cared so much about that they didn't even make a special movie for the EPCOT version, rather just cloned the DCA version...

Now we come to Imagination, which is the most screwed up of all the Pavilions.



This Pavilion, when it opened, was meant to inspire. You connected with these characters (Dreamfinder and Figgy). It told us that the new can be created from the old (like, having a kid), but the new can also find inspiration from the old, and that the old can likewise find inspiration from the new. Then you were invited into a wonderful playground of the senses.

I could rant about what they've done here for paragraphs, so I'll just leave it to say, they screwed this up so bad, and it was such a key to the overall story.

What IS that overall story?

"If we can dream it, then we can do it, yes we can."



Which brings us back to Horizons. Using technology, a respect for nature, communication, and transportation, we can make a better and brighter future for everyone.

And THAT was the message of Horizons.

As a child, seeing all this subconsciously impacted me.

Ok, I've prattled on enough about Futureworld...lets get into World Showcase, but first I need to take a break.

rgYosgN.gif

bravo! excellent post!
 

MKCP 1985

Well-Known Member
"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are just kids grown up, anyway"
-Walt Disney

Along the lines of Walt Disney's famous quote, I like a quote I first heard a couple months ago, but which has been around for awhile: "Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened." I'm not certain of the origin but goodreads is crediting Terry Pratchett for coining the line. I wonder what Terry Pratchett would think of a Frozen attraction inside the Norway pavilion.
 

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