Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[Pirate665]

And I hope your here later because Im gonna take a shot of whiskey every timeyou say "groupthink"

I'm not gonna play that one. I lost when I played the Clue drinking game and got Mustard.

 

[wdisney9000]

I will never understand why some people feel that "attendance boosting" outweighs building (not reskining) attractions where they belong and in with the attention, detail and budget that they deserve. Epcot would not crumble to the ground if they werent doing this.

 

[Pirate665]

The thing is, its a numbers game. Fresh content drives numbers. Numbers mean money, money is good business, so numbers. So on and so on. In the end, if executed correctly, it will make the company money.

Poorly executed, and we'll see ECOPTs first Phantom Boats...

 

[wdisney9000]

I have yet to see any facts presented here, other than the facts I have posted on the impact Frozen has had on tourism in Norway. I see plenty of *emotions*, which is fine -- but please don't refer to them as *facts*.

For starters, you presented one (1) fact, not facts (thats plural). Second, how does it matter in terms of WDW? Will Norway pavilion receive compensation for the tourism boost? And C) I have a structured settlement but I need cash NOW! Can you help?

 

[wdisney9000]

The thing is, its a numbers game. Fresh content drives numbers. Numbers mean money, money is good business, so numbers. So on and so on. In the end, if executed correctly, it will make the company money.

Poorly executed, and we'll see ECOPTs first Phantom Boats...

Of course, thats what every business knows, its a numbers game. But that mentality is not what catapulted WDW to the top. Creativity, Imagination, Ingenuity and striving to create something so unique that people actually suspended belief in reality, even if only for a brief moment- that was the mindset. Why adapt the company to modern practices now when avoiding them was clearly what set them above and beyond in the first place?

When you have an AMAZING product, numbers and money fall into place with ease. Do you ever see a Lamborghini or Ferrari commercial? No, because they dont need them.

 

[Siren]

If we would have had social media and forums when WDW was being build and openend, people would be saying "omg they build a cheap version of pirates, they eliminated the IASW facade; etc... to make profit!"

LOL. This is too funny and so true!

but how long were they planning and designing this thing? they annouced diagon alley in 2011...
and they already knew the popularity of the IP...and already knew how it should look.

Frozen was released in november 2013. I'm surprised they closed Maelstrom a year later to start this ride.
They had to plan and design it, considering they also didn't know from the start that it would be a boxoffice hit.

this doesn't seem slow to me at all... but realistic.

Wow, very good post and insight! I have to agree.

And they also let you avoid facts or uncomfortable questions you don't wish to answer. Convenient. But, must press on while on the clock....

I haven't avoided anything. I will never back down from fight, so long as it makes sense. I don't argue with fools. But, you already know this. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Who told you that nonsense? I hope you didn't believe them.

Maelstrom had a refurb planned. Until this mess.

So come on. Do you work for Disney or do you just believe their PR?

What's in a refurb? There a was refurb planned for Space Mountain in 2009 and once it reopened the ride actually felt worse! And, I don't have to elaborate on some of the past Splash Mountain refurbs. Oh, and those new splashy boats on Pirates are awesome, lol.

@marni1971 I thought we were on the same page, but I am clearly on page 2015 and you are on page 1982 -- no wonder we can't seem to agree.

Comparing Cedar Point to Disney is apples to oranges. Disney and Universal Orlando is better. By even that comparison, Frozen is both cheap and fast and looks to be poorly done. What a disservice to both the guests and the success of the film.

I totally disagree. The Norway Pavilion is a beautiful, impressive structure as it stands and Disney is adding enhancements to this area, it will be beautiful when it is completed. I don't think it will be cheap. I don't like cheap things.

Rougarou was a cheap overlay of an existing coaster. Exactly what Disney is doing with this attraction. $75 Million is "cheap" for a new Disney attraction.

And how long between The Little Mermaid and UtS:VotLM? 24 years? I pity all those little princesses that loved that movie that had to wait until they had their own little princesses to be able to travel under the sea with Arial.

Exactly, so my ten year time line isn't all that extreme. The estimates for the Frozen overlay were $80 to $100 million. I believe it will be closer to $100 million.

@Siren, no offense but you have got to stop throwing out that "10 years" thing. It's ridiculous.

It wasn't all that long ago that Disney used to work on multiple attractions at multiple parks simultaneously. During the Happiest Celebration on Earth, an 18-month period from 2005-2006, Disney did the following:

• Magic Kingdom received a major refurbishment of "it's a small world", A major refurbishment of Pirates of the Caribbean, a new golden overlay for Cinderella Castle including a temporary stage show held at the castle called "Cinderellabration" featuring many Disney princesses and a new playground Pooh's Playful Spot.
• Epcot received Soarin' from Disney's California Adventure and A Hong Kong Disneyland Preview Center
• Disney-MGM Studios received a major refurbishment of the Streets of America area, and the Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show from Walt Disney Studios (Disneyland Resort Paris)
• Disney's Animal Kingdom temporarily exhibited Lucky the Dinosaur, the first free-roaming automatic Audio-Animatronic figure; in addition in 2006 the park opened Expedition Everest, a highly themed roller coaster through the Himalayas that features an encounter with the Yeti.

And that was just at Walt Disney World. Other attractions were opening at all the other properties.

Today, they take something like the Fantasyland expansion and spread it out over 4-5 years while not developing much of anything else. Disney does this for their own reasons which most likely have to do with spreading out costs over multiple years (which is ridiculous given record prices and attendance).

But it doesn't have to be this way. Disney could have easily built an entire Frozen land if it wanted to in a reasonable time frame. They don't because they don't want to. If you're okay with Disney choosing to do the cheapest and most expedient thing (and then taking much longer than necessary to do it), that's your prerogative. But don't invent some false choice like it was this or go without Frozen for a decade! That's beyond absurd.

Okay, I totally understand your point but I feel like ten years is accurate, in part, because Disney already has a list of projects currently underway -- Avatarland in 2017, Toy Story Pixar Land 20??, and Star Wars Land in 2020.

S0, Disney wouldn't start Frozen land until after Star Wars Land is fully completed. We know this because construction for Avatarland did not begin until the 7DMT was completed, technically Disney could have started construction on Avatarland before 7DMT, but they didn't.

So after massive "Wall of Text" posts and substantial rebuttals we've gone quiet here.

~<crickets>~ Anyone seen Siren lately ~<crickets>~

*1023*

Um, I don't post walls of text -- not ever! And, there are no crickets, I am not a robot.

 

[wm49rs]

LOL. This is too funny and so true!

Wow, very good post and insight! I have to agree.

I haven't avoided anything. I will never back down from fight, so long as it makes sense. I don't argue with fools. But, you already know this. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

What's in a refurb? There a was refurb planned for Space Mountain in 2009 and once it reopened the ride actually felt worse! And, I don't have to elaborate on some of the past Splash Mountain refurbs. Oh, and those new splashy boats on Pirates are awesome, lol.

@marni1971 I thought we were on the same page, but I am clearly on page 2015 and you are on page 1982 -- no wonder we can't seem to agree.

I totally disagree. The Norway Pavilion is a beautiful, impressive structure as it stands and Disney is adding enhancements to this area, it will be beautiful when it is completed. I don't think it will be cheap. I don't like cheap things.

Exactly, so my ten year time line isn't all that extreme. The estimates for the Frozen overlay were $80 to $100 million. I believe it will be closer to $100 million.

Okay, I totally understand your point but I feel like ten years is accurate, in part, because Disney already has a list of projects currently underway -- Avatarland in 2017, Toy Story Pixar Land 20??, and Star Wars Land in 2020.

S0, Disney wouldn't start Frozen land until after Star Wars Land is fully completed. We know this because construction for Avatarland did not begin until the 7DMT was completed, technically Disney could have started construction on Avatarland before 7DMT, but they didn't.



Um, I don't post walls of text -- not ever! And, there are no crickets, I am not a robot.

For you, denial is apparently more than a river in Egypt. But you keep on doing that good work (literally)....

Oh, and by the way, all those alleged facts and figures you keep tossing about, please remember a good portion of that budget is going towards a M&G building and a new women's restroom. Both of which I'm sure the fine folk of Norway care about not in the least....

 

[Pirate665]

The problem with that is you don't have those people in charge anymore. Almost everyone in there now all came from business and corporate backgrounds. They don't want us around. We spend money.

I was forced to retire. I did not choose it. Those of us who raised fits were ignored largely by Meg and her team. I came from an engineering and entertainment background. Both of my bosses came from businesses not even associated with the theme parks!

This is the given state of the company now. I realised it when MK got a licence it has no business in having for booze. Why was it done? Money. Now more people would come to the fine restaurants in MK and drink.

Sorry, but now since I no longer work for them, I just gotta get these things off my chest.

 

[marni1971]

Tailspin at its finest.

See ya.

 

[Pirate665]

Tailspin at it's finest.

See ya.

Sorry Marni...

 

[marni1971]

Sorry Marni...

No not you!!

 

[wdisney9000]

What's in a refurb? There a was refurb planned for Space Mountain in 2009 and once it reopened the ride actually felt worse! And, I don't have to elaborate on some of the past Splash Mountain refurbs. Oh, and those new splashy boats on Pirates are awesome, lol.

This is just absolutely hilarious. Your actually admitting that the company has botched it up on ALL their most recent endeavors that were as simple as replacing boats or repairing AA's and paint. But you have 100% confidence that they will knock this one out of the park.

The Norway Pavilion is a beautiful, impressive structure as it stands and Disney is adding enhancements to this area, it will be beautiful when it is completed. I don't think it will be cheap. I don't like cheap things.

FYI, the Norway pavilion will not look any different when this is done. It will be just as "beautiful" as it ALWAYS has. The inside of the ride will look different, but thats not exactly Norway now, is it? And dont try and back track and say you were referring to the M&G area, and even if you were, I dont think it will be very visible upon entering the pavilion. Or have you forgotten yesterday when you were corrected about the two NOT being connected.

 

[lebeau]

Okay, I totally understand your point but I feel like ten years is accurate, in part, because Disney already has a list of projects currently underway -- Avatarland in 2017, Toy Story Pixar Land 20??, and Star Wars Land in 2020.

S0, Disney wouldn't start Frozen land until after Star Wars Land is fully completed. We know this because construction for Avatarland did not begin until the 7DMT was completed, technically Disney could have started construction on Avatarland before 7DMT, but they didn't.

I'm trying to understand your reasoning here because you're making a huge jump. You are arguing that Disney had to choose between two paths. 1. The path they have taken or 2. Putting Frozen in line behind everything else that is currently planned or underway.

But this is not reality. Disney had an infinite number of choices. They have the means at their disposal to start another project right now if they want to. They don't have to wait. They choose to. Just because they chose to hold off starting Avatar until after 7 Dwarfs was done does not mean they are under any obligation to continue following this pattern.

This slow, sad pace filled with decisions that are motivated by the bottom line above all else is entirely Disney's doing. Their hands are not tied.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I don't disagree with any of that.

As I said, though, if it was some $300M project in Fantasyland, we'd have a good portion of these same folks complaining that they were spending that kind of money on Frozen anyway. I've seen it time and again on these boards. It would be "oh look Disney dumping money into the newest kid on the block - why about X film why isn't that in the parks yet" yadda yadda.

I completely understand the arguments against Frozen. Half of them are to do with "Not my EPCOT!" and the other half are operational.

In any case - it's what is happening. I'm not going to let it affect my enjoyment of what may end up being a fun little ride. If I listened to those same people I'm supposed to think TLM is trash because of what it was because they haven't adjusted their expectations to align with reality.

You need to be able to filter out the crazy arguments with the rational arguments. Both are loud in this case. Allow me to toot my own horn here. About 5 times a year, I wrote an op-ed piece on MiceChat.com. Up until September of last year, they have never told me what to write. There was an instance where I presented a topic to them and they said not to write it, but otherwise the topics have been my own. This was until the new officially came out about Frozen. Dusty Sage basically said, "you need to write something about this". I wrote it only a few days after the announcement came out and my opinion has never wavered.

This is a bad fit for Epcot and the franchise deserves more. Yes, there were people complaining about Frozen overload in DHS the past two summers, but the reality is that type of thing SHOULD be happening. It was laughable that the Frozen plan for last summer was pulled together in a 2 week period after they had announced another Summer Plan.

The only part of the argument that I have added since the official Frozen replacing Maelstrom announcement is the added stupidity of this going in an area that won't be able to accommodate more than 1200 guests an hour (that seems to be absolutely, best case scenario).

What we know about this is that Frozen is a merchandise gold mine. We know that there are two other parks where it would be a better fit. And we know that because of it's popularity, the ride can be Olaf's on a stick and demand will still far exceed capacity.

This is the most short sighted decision that has ever been made in Walt Disney World, and that's coming off of the $2 billion Next Gen mistake.

 

[Cesar R M]

(Guys, here is a textbook example of what I was discussing. It would be comical if it weren't so criminally un-self-aware, to the point of absurdity.)

Somehow, you have just managed to prove my entire point in one fell swoop.

Let's see, in one relatively brief post you managed to:

A) Point the finger at someone as the enemy of groupthink

B) Accused someone who does not follow the groupthink of being on "Disney PR Payroll"

C) Accused someone of being a "troll" for daring to express opinions contrary to the groupthink

D) Chastised me for bringing up "rebuttals" to the groupthink (how dare I - the groupthink has already ruled!)

E) Again accuse anyone who thinks differently of "licking the shoes of Iger stock buy-backs" (I have never ever once shown support for stock buy-backs, is this the Straw Man that the other dude keeps going on about?)

F) Used preposterous fear mongering to support an abstract fear based on something you don't seem to understand yourself - but it scares you and it should scare everyone! (Warning to not dare contradict the groupthink - dire consequences!)

G) You came into this thread, and made 4 replies in a row to 7 different posts - to "catch up" on making sure you gave everyone who disagreed with you a "what for!" and high-fives to other groupthink members while making more derogatory comments per the above, without making a single unique coherent point of your own.


If I didn't know better, I'd say you did this on purpose - but in any case, thank you for proving exactly the way the groupthink mentality is applied to topics like this.

Except I said it was YOU who was doing the trolling.
In this case was Siren (in other cases it was Jimmy T.)
You're trying your best to act like a Martyr now.

on C.. there is a huge difference in having an opinion and then trying their best to inflame and cause a confrontation. Siren was very successfully not only in this thread, but in another one as well.. with the same behaviour.

D.. the issue is.. beating a dead horse.. cyclical discussion.. again.
instead of just agreeing to disagree. we see the SAME confrontation again.. except perhaps even more direct and personal barely missing the blatant insults phase.

I still do not get your supposed "fearmongering" you keep claiming on point F.

as for g), oh wow, maybe I should shut up and refuse to post... so I do not hurt your very delicate ego. I mean.. common!
Its not everything about you, step down from your martyr position you try to wedge yourself in.

 

[NormC]

It took over three years for Disney to build 7DMT, a kiddie coaster.

No it took 33 months which is less than three years.

 

[Cesar R M]

Okay this is just a theory, but I'm thinking someone at Disney probably knows what they're doing, and considering the pattern of "First fix DHS, then AK" I am hopeful that EPCOT is next on the list. Disney has been hinting at an EPCOT improvement for awhile, even if it is under the guise of shutting down buildings and putting out a few comic books. My theory is that they're using Frozen as an excuse to get more people into EPCOT, as to convince the guys higher up that EPCOT can survive as a park, and if we're lucky, receive new attractions. Will they be good or relevant attractions? Maybe, maybe not. But Disney wouldn't let a park sit dormant like this for this long if they didn't have something up their sleeves in terms of an expansion. It'll be a while (at least into the 2020's) before we get far, I'd think, but it'll happen.

Again, just a theory.

It seems they're fixing AK first anyway.
ROL, Avatar, restaurant expansions, Harambe expansions.. new paths..etc..

 

[RSoxNo1]

you mean this famous image Dave?
View attachment 97463


it depends on how extreme the point of views are.
Some people could defend something even if they were killing kids.
"but but.. the kids were thugs!".

That definitively counts as a illness.. or behavioural problem in the likes of Stockholm syndrome.

I know you're posting this ironically, but I really hate the "Disney is a Business" argument in this case. This is a bad decision all the way around. Cars Land was a significant investment into an intellectual property that paid off in spades. A true Frozen land would have done the same thing at half the cost. Instead, they took 1/10th the cost, shoehorned it into an existing area and are going to create more problems than this will be worth. It's almost as if the ride needs to be absolutely horrible and unpopular in order for it not to be an operations nightmare.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Tailspin at its finest.

See ya.

Haha, yep.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I still do not see a lasting appeal in Frozen compared to..let's say.. Harry Potter (and their behemot 7 movies, books and derivatives) or StarWars (7 and more movies.. books.. tons of comics, games..etc..)

but then, time will tell.
People STILL love The Lion King and classics like Beauty and the Beast.



there is a monstrous difference in loving an attraction.. and then claiming its the best thing since sliced bread or the first coming of Jesus while disregarding any criticism over it.
Siren was pretty much the second.

Disregarded things like Frozen deserving a way better place, not just a "retheme" in a tiny area. Then her own contradictions.

I do not see the problems of certain people loving changes or things.
But.. again.. there is a huge difference in having a taste or loving something.. and doing huge PR like stunts like they were paid chills of a company to counter dissent (believe it or not, there are trolls/companies who sell Twitter bots power to counter hashtags.. why I know it? because the moronic president of my country, uses them to counter things that might affect him.. and they are VERY EFFICIENT in blocking or slowing the uproar rides when something really bad happens. So no surprise there might be these type of "services" for forums, blogs..etc..)

I still find it very interesting that Siren seems to be reaping her trolling seeds (aka gone).
the discussion went toxic and now we have englandddg and aefx doing very personal fights.

Frozen is a classic. It has staying power that I believe will exceed Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, etc.