Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[Mike S]

(Guys, here is a textbook example of what I was discussing. It would be comical if it weren't so criminally un-self-aware, to the point of absurdity.)

Somehow, you have just managed to prove my entire point in one fell swoop.

Let's see, in one relatively brief post you managed to:

A) Point the finger at someone as the enemy of groupthink

B) Accused someone who does not follow the groupthink of being on "Disney PR Payroll"

C) Accused someone of being a "troll" for daring to express opinions contrary to the groupthink

D) Chastised me for bringing up "rebuttals" to the groupthink (how dare I - the groupthink has already ruled!)

E) Again accuse anyone who thinks differently of "licking the shoes of Iger stock buy-backs" (I have never ever once shown support for stock buy-backs, is this the Straw Man that the other dude keeps going on about?)

F) Used preposterous fear mongering to support an abstract fear based on something you don't seem to understand yourself - but it scares you and it should scare everyone! (Warning to not dare contradict the groupthink - dire consequences!)

G) You came into this thread, and made 4 replies in a row to 7 different posts - to "catch up" on making sure you gave everyone who disagreed with you a "what for!" and high-fives to other groupthink members while making more derogatory comments per the above, without making a single unique coherent point of your own.


If I didn't know better, I'd say you did this on purpose - but in any case, thank you for proving exactly the way the groupthink mentality is applied to topics like this.

You have to admit though, whenever Siren posts her walls of text it draws more of a reaction than any other member that's in favor of the ride. It even drew you in here. All I'm going to say is that I don't think that's just a coincidence.

Okay this is just a theory, but I'm thinking someone at Disney probably knows what they're doing, and considering the pattern of "First fix DHS, then AK" I am hopeful that EPCOT is next on the list. Disney has been hinting at an EPCOT improvement for awhile, even if it is under the guise of shutting down buildings and putting out a few comic books. My theory is that they're using Frozen as an excuse to get more people into EPCOT, as to convince the guys higher up that EPCOT can survive as a park, and if we're lucky, receive new attractions. Will they be good or relevant attractions? Maybe, maybe not. But Disney wouldn't let a park sit dormant like this for this long if they didn't have something up their sleeves in terms of an expansion. It'll be a while (at least into the 2020's) before we get far, I'd think, but it'll happen.

Again, just a theory.

It's a nice theory and all but I wouldn't get my hopes up. All the comics show is that Marvel wanted to make a story about Figment & Dreamfinder. Buildings have been shut down for quite a while now. If there was a plan we would've heard something about it by now. Also AK is being fixed first, not DHS. DHS is still only rumor at this point and absolutely no work has started on the Backlot Tour yet and it's been closed for almost a whole year now. Like I said before, don't get your hopes up.

 

[Mike S]

I wonder if their thinking is
we re doing a big Pixar expansion along with Star wars over the next five years so no need for Frozen there, in addition they ll probably keep the frozen summer stuff for a while any ways

I wouldn't call TSPL a "big expansion," but this is Disney after all. To them NFL was the biggest expansion in MK history. I believe that was actually Tomorrowland in the mid 70's when we got Space Mountain, the PeopleMover, and Carousel of Progress.

 

[twebber55]

I wouldn't call TSPL a "big expansion," but this is Disney after all. To them NFL was the biggest expansion in MK history. I believe that was actually Tomorrowland in the mid 70's when we got Space Mountain, the PeopleMover, and Carousel of Progress.

my understanding is there will be more than just TSPL correct?

 

[Mike S]

my understanding is there will be more than just TSPL correct?

We still have no idea though. No clues as to what it would be except that it could be Cars related. I'm not expecting anything big for Pixar.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I wouldn't call TSPL a "big expansion," but this is Disney after all. To them NFL was the biggest expansion in MK history. I believe that was actually Tomorrowland in the mid 70's when we got Space Mountain, the PeopleMover, and Carousel of Progress.

I believe you are correct, Mike. And two of these attractions are still crowd favorites today. Let's see how New Fantasyland attractions hold up after 40 years.

 

[JEANYLASER]

The concept art of the Frozen ever after is awesome! I can't wait to ride it next year!

 

[AEfx]

Yesterday, because of this thread, I spent a significant amount of time searching for EPCOT Center articles on the internet. I have long been aware of the initial economic model and corporate sponsorships, but had not considered corporate interests beyond the perspective of goodwill and edutainment.

...

The article reminded me of the scene from A Christmas Story, when Ralphie realizes his secret decoder is nothing more than a means for interpreting "a crummy commercial." Although optimistic, the pavilions of Epcot Center told stories from the perspectives of Disney and the underwriting sponsors.

I loved my Epcot Center of the 1980s and still appreciate attractions like Living with the Land. However, instead of attractions, it seems as though I fell in love with immersive commercials.

And I did, too. I still do. It was a great place, no matter what it's intention - because it did inspire many of us.

That said, as you found out - it wasn't nearly as "deep" and altruistic as folks tend to remember it. Yes, it had two incredible dark rides that are sorely missed, that it's doubtful we will see anything on that scale again at WDW. But it just was never this bastion of cultural progress in the form that was built. All these esoteric and altruistic notions people have of what it's supposed to be was just the PR spin of a different generation.

As we sit today and talk about Disney PR - I just think it's important to remember that Disney has always been a company with a PR spin - it's just that we used to like the message more, and we got the message back before we were old enough to realize what a PR message even was. And at this point, they haven't even preached this message for going on 25 years now, so it seems like setting ourselves up to be gluttons for punishment if we expect Epcot to return to the EPCOT in our minds, which it never really was to begin with.

 

[AEfx]

You have to admit though, whenever Siren posts her walls of text it draws more of a reaction than any other member that's in favor of the ride. It even drew you in here. All I'm going to say is that I don't think that's just a coincidence.

I don't know about Siren's posts - I don't generally follow people's posting histories, I try to take each post at face value. And I write lengthy posts myself - lengthy posts are not walls of text. Walls of text are run-on sentences or with no punctuation or no paragraphs that are all mushed together into one text block.

I've been in and out of this thread many times, but it gets tiring when you give an opinion or have a different idea about something and a half-dozen people throw groupthink at you and just end up arguing about everything but the point at hand. Getting told you are trolling or that you "just don't get it" or you are "licking Iger's shoes" (COME ON!) because you don't agree with whatever the group has decided everyone should feel about something.

A lot of folks just leave a thread after that and don't ever return, because it's obvious it's not a message board discussion and some regulars make it out to be a "we all agree" club meeting. I've got a thicker skin than that - but when one wonders why these threads go round and round, it's because when new perspectives come in they are shut up as quickly as possible, in rather unpleasant ways often times.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

The concept art of the Frozen ever after is awesome! I can't wait to ride it next year!

I love your enthusiasm for new things at the parks. But I don't agree the art for Frozen looks awesome. These represent Disney at its awesome best to me (and I avoided the EPCOT Center concept art):

 

[Disneyhead'71]

And I did, too. I still do. It was a great place, no matter what it's intention - because it did inspire many of us.

That said, as you found out - it wasn't nearly as "deep" and altruistic as folks tend to remember it. Yes, it had two incredible dark rides that are sorely missed, that it's doubtful we will see anything on that scale again at WDW. But it just was never this bastion of cultural progress in the form that was built. All these esoteric and altruistic notions people have of what it's supposed to be was just the PR spin of a different generation.

As we sit today and talk about Disney PR - I just think it's important to remember that Disney has always been a company with a PR spin - it's just that we used to like the message more, and we got the message back before we were old enough to realize what a PR message even was. And at this point, they haven't even preached this message for going on 25 years now, so it seems like setting ourselves up to be gluttons for punishment if we expect Epcot to return to the EPCOT in our minds, which it never really was to begin with.

I believe you are wrong on your assessment of old school EPCOT Center.

But it is one of the "Talking Points" the current crop of Disney supporters are using now that the mission statement of the park has passed through the shredder.

 

[Kman101]

Can we move on from all the endless back and forth and keep this to the Frozen debacle? Pretty pretty please? LOL

 

[AEfx]

I believe you are wrong on your assessment of old school EPCOT Center.

But it is one of the "Talking Points" the current crop of Disney supporters are using now that the mission statement of the park has passed through the shredder.

Yes, we distribute the talking points via Fax, Telex, and TDD every day. Let me know if you'd like to sign up - although you'll have to unsubscribe from the groupthink communications, you can't get both.



If you disagree with the facts presented, it would be great if you would elaborate and provide verifiable, factual data to reenforce your points. And that would be more than simply the dedication plaque, which is clearly a marketing tool - and if you read it carefully, doesn't really say what folks may think.

If you'd like to see the opinion from someone else on how yes, EPCOT made us feel warm and fuzzy about the future but was really based in advertising, you can try this link. And keep in mind that the writer of this article was so against Frozen in Norway they actually wrote to the Norwegian Embassy. Yet, he still seems to get what EPCOT was - and wasn't.

 

[AEfx]

Can we move on from all the endless back and forth and keep this to the Frozen debacle? Pretty pretty please? LOL

So you'd rather have pages and pages of just "This is a debacle!"

That's pretty boring. In any case, it's already happening - so if you are waiting for some last minute reprise, I'm pretty sure I heard some of the inside of the ride has already been seen on flatbed trucks leaving the building.

 

[PhotoDave219]

So you'd rather have pages and pages of just "This is a debacle!"

That's pretty boring. In any case, it's already happening - so if you are waiting for some last minute reprise, I'm pretty sure I heard some of the inside of the ride has already been seen on flatbed trucks leaving the building.

uh, that was cleaned out HOURS after Maelstrom closed.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

And I did, too. I still do. It was a great place, no matter what it's intention - because it did inspire many of us.

That said, as you found out - it wasn't nearly as "deep" and altruistic as folks tend to remember it. Yes, it had two incredible dark rides that are sorely missed, that it's doubtful we will see anything on that scale again at WDW. But it just was never this bastion of cultural progress in the form that was built. All these esoteric and altruistic notions people have of what it's supposed to be was just the PR spin of a different generation.

As we sit today and talk about Disney PR - I just think it's important to remember that Disney has always been a company with a PR spin - it's just that we used to like the message more, and we got the message back before we were old enough to realize what a PR message even was. And at this point, they haven't even preached this message for going on 25 years now, so it seems like setting ourselves up to be gluttons for punishment if we expect Epcot to return to the EPCOT in our minds, which it never really was to begin with.

Please know that I completely agree with the sentiment that Frozen deserves a fitting themed environment in an appropriate park. Personally, I liked the rumor of the Animation Courtyard at DHS becoming Disney Studios and showcasing Arendelle.

World Showcase certainly has the potential to suspend our beliefs and take us to countries we may never have an opportunity to visit in our lifetimes. However, it is important to remember that these are simply facades of show spaces, not buildings on the National Trust for Historic Preservation registry, worthy of preservation.

I certainly did not want to see World Showcase become Movie-Tie-In Showcase, but I am not going to continue to wish for a return to the EPCOT Center that once was for an Epcot that never will be.

 

[Pirate665]

The thing I try to remember is that the parks are living, evolving things. Even though I don't like it (especially with EPCOT, remember I did get the symbols tattooed on me on the 25th anniversary) this will bring more people in.

And hopefully some more love to the park. I'll bypass the horrible ride, but as long as more people come in to actually ride and visit instead of drink around the world, I'm happy...ish.

 

[Siren]

Sorry @Siren you misunderstood.

The bad press on social media was hilarious. Despite PR telling us how great it will be.

I think Frozen Ever After will be much better than Maelstrom, IMO.

Not exhausting in the least. Unless you're referring to your continual avoidance of facts that aren't toeing the company line. But, when you're on the clock and all....

I have yet to see any facts presented here, other than the facts I have posted on the impact Frozen has had on tourism in Norway. I see plenty of *emotions*, which is fine -- but please don't refer to them as *facts*.

And, I don't toe any line, nor do I subscribe to the status quo and I can't be bought. But, you already know this. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Yes Norway has some features from Frozen. I know the makers of the film even visited the country. What I'm saying is that it's a Modern society. I think that this gives Americans a stereotype that when you travel to Europe that it's all castles and stuff. Some parts are. But most are not. And European countries are far more advanced than the U.S. in some ways.


This just contradicts yourself. The solution is build a bigger bakery. Maelstrom isn't nearly enough space. So people will be skipping over that part of the park. If they made an original ride in a different vicinity, then they would make way more money off merchandise from people stopping in that part of the park.

Unfortunately, Maelstrom did not highlight modern Norway, not even 25 years ago, imo. Again, Norway officials did not like the trolls *at all*, they wanted their country to be appreciated for more than that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I did not contradict myself. I presented a question and my solution would be to keep my bakery open, so long as my patrons are willing to wait. I would not close my bakery to take years to build a new one and demand my patrons be patient. They'll just find another bakery to obsess about.

1. Given the proper funds, a mini-land with a real E-ticket ride and possibly a smaller ride, shops, and m&g could be built in the same time frame this makeover is taking. Had they not been so slow to react, it could have even been started sooner. The Norway pavillion and Maelstrom itself was built in 2 years! Epcot as a whole only took about 3 years!

2. You can hope all you want, but it won't matter. It's been said many times that adding boats won't increase the number of people that get to ride per hour. Larger boats holding more people would, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen either, since it's restricted by the size of the flume and the reversal mechanisms. I guess if they could speed up the reversing and dispatching of boats and make the flume flow faster, you could cycle more boats/people through..but that would only make an already short ride even shorter!

I don't believe you are being realistic with the timeline. Yes, we all know that Disney can build things much faster. But, the reality is today's Disney won't. It took over three years for Disney to build 7DMT, a kiddie coaster.

so...
you have a surprise hit on your hands that prints money...
You have gigantic lines for a M&G...in a park which already has crowd problems.
You decide this IP needs a ride....fast.
Preferably in a park that needs a little attendance boost.
you can choose DHS; but it would take much more time and money... of go for Epcot; which has
a ride that really needs a breath of fresh air. (and wich already has the infrastructure for the ride)
You can launch this ride a year before avatarland opens.... so it might give a repeat visit from guests.
(instead of opening 2 big rides/lands in almost the same year)

all this considered, if it was my company, I would take the exact same decision...

I really love the logic that you've presented here, it's so refreshing. Thank you for being bold enough to post this. I love individuality, too.

Hey @Siren , direct question for you. Do you work for TWDC?

*1023*

No. Why do you ask? Is it just to fit in with everyone else?

 

[wdisney9000]

A lot of folks just leave a thread after that and don't ever return, because it's obvious it's not a message board discussion and some regulars make it out to be a "we all agree" club meeting. I've got a thicker skin than that - but when one wonders why these threads go round and round, it's because when new perspectives come in they are shut up as quickly as possible, in rather unpleasant ways often times.

Ah, but there is a difference between you, and the ones you refer to (the ones that leave he thread). I dont think its about thicker skin. Its about presenting your viewpoint and being able to have a back and forth without feeling attacked, or claim your being attacked when you contradict yourself and back yourself into a corner. Being able to distinguish the emotion conveyed through text helps as well. Its easy to take offense to something that actually wasnt intended to offend, but just came off that way when reading it.

Siren is a good example. She obviously is passionate about the Frozen ride. Thats great. But in the same manor you claim she was a victim of the "We all agree Club", she was slinging mud just as much. She will post her opinion as if it is fact - "Every pavilion in Epcot wishes it was getting the love Norway is"..."Norway withdrew from the pavilion and left the bill with Disney" or "They are joining the M&G area and pavilion to flow better" (theres more but ill leave it at that). So when she is questioned (not attacked, just questioned) about those comments, she got all flustered, spouted others were "conspiracy theorists", fell back on the age old argument of "its boosting tourism in Norway", then ranted for two pages about how it would take ten years to build a proper attraction (no idea where she got that number) and that wouldnt fair to little girls. She even sunk as low as to play the feminism card. All of this in an effort to defend her opinion that she was touting as if it were factual information handed down directly from Burbank, and in a stroke of ridiculousness, she managed to avoid answering any questions and shift the discussion to her being "attacked".

You have stuck around and actually answered questions, stated your opinion and even had a few "heated" discussions and you DIDNT resort to vague and widespread claims in an effort to mask your inability to effectively get your point across. The people that leave are the ones who allow their emotions to take over and ultimately cant formulate a thought because they feel victimized. Oddly enough, their worst enemy is truly themselves. For what its worth, I respect your views, even if I may not agree with all of them. And I hope your here later because Im gonna take a shot of whiskey every time you say "groupthink"

 

[wm49rs]

I think Frozen Ever After will be much better than Maelstrom, IMO.

I have yet to see any facts presented here, other than the facts I have posted on the impact Frozen has had on tourism in Norway. I see plenty of *emotions*, which is fine -- but please don't refer to them as *facts*.

And, I don't toe any line, nor do I subscribe to the status quo and I can't be bought. But, you already know this. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


Unfortunately, Maelstrom did not highlight modern Norway, not even 25 years ago, imo. Again, Norway officials did not like the trolls *at all*, they wanted their country to be appreciated for more than that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I did not contradict myself. I presented a question and my solution would be to keep my bakery open, so long as my patrons are willing to wait. I would not close my bakery to take years to build a new one and demand my patrons be patient. They'll just find another bakery to obsess about.

I don't believe you are being realistic with the timeline. Yes, we all know that Disney can build things much faster. But, the reality is today's Disney won't. It took over three years for Disney to build 7DMT, a kiddie coaster.

I really love the logic that you've presented here, it's so refreshing. Thank you for being bold enough to post this. I love individuality, too.

No. Why do you ask? Is it just to fit in with everyone else?

Well, the one where bumping tourism to Norway is irrelevant to what TWDC is turning the Norwegian pavilion into comes to mind. But since you're ignoring those facts you don't care for anyway....

 

[wdisney9000]

Unfortunately, Maelstrom did not highlight modern Norway, not even 25 years ago, imo. Again, Norway officials did not like the trolls *at all*, they wanted their country to be appreciated for more than that.

So your arguing that Maelstrom did not properly represent Norway, now or even 25 years ago. But a ride based on an animated film that has similar architecure and will sing songs that have nothing to do with the country will do a better job representing modern Norway? Obviously it wont, but you will still use it as an example of why this is a good idea?