Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

[wdisney9000]

You for one, multiple times.

Please show me any post where I said that? You claim I did multiple times so it should be easy to find one.

 

[Phicinfan]

Who demanded it though?

my apologies, I had you confused with another poster. I have to admit, you have made some very valid points, and I falsely accused. Again my apologies

 

[wdisney9000]

my apologies, I had you confused with another poster. I have to admit, you have made some very valid points, and I falsely accused. Again my apologies

No worries.

 

[spacemt354]

To constantly insist on opinion and then spend multiple posts trying to refute them, and then continue to harangue them for realistic points of view is pretty darn close to demanding. And then you have those who later re-quote said person when they don't reply basically stating they had not realistic answer is another.

Do I need to continue with your past history.

Again, everyone has an opinion. As stated multiple times I get how the new Frozen M&G and Ride don't fit in original scope of WS. I also get why those who really love WS are feeling worried or plain disappointed.

I also understand wdisney9000's point of view of this is haphazard and could be sloppy since it is only a money grab. Obviously that is a definite possibility.

Some of us are of the opinion, that this could be the start of a re-staging of WS, and maybe expanding movie influence more into that section of the park. I for one am all for it, if it does not also remove what those areas originally were, and is just an enhancement.

Change is good, at least to me, but I see why some don't feel that way.

Let me lay out how a typical conversation on this thread has gone down. Let's say Person A is against Frozen in Norway and Person B is for Frozen in Norway.

Person A: Why are they putting Frozen in Norway when the movie didn't have anything to do with the country?
Person B: It does have to do with Norway because clearly Disney is connecting the two. I am all for it!
Person A: What does an American film of a Danish fairy tale that takes place in a fictional land have to do with Norway? Why isn't it in the Magic Kingdom?
Person B: I think it will bring life to Epcot and I'm glad to see change. Frozen is based on Norway so it fits.
Person A: There is a difference between based on and inspired by....
Person B: Yeah I know, all I'm saying is that it's my opinion and I like it.
Person A: But wouldn't it be better in the Magic Kingdom? Why shoehorn something into a country it doesn't belong in? What is your rationale for it being in Norway?
Person B: I already said it. I have the right to an opinion and that is that. I can't wait for the change. You can disagree but you can't demand me for answers.

(following this back and forth, Person B will add something like this a few posts later....)

Person B: I don't understand why people can't just be happy. We should be grateful and not criticize so much. Gosh it's a theme park and we should all stop being so negative. I can't wait for Frozen!

Everyone has an opinion. And in reality neither opinion is right or wrong. I'm not going to belittle someone because they disagree with me. But I am going to ask some questions because I'm curious how they arrived at their conclusion and I'm interested in their rationale behind it. Asking some questions is not a demand for answers. Because there is no real answer. And you know what, I might even agree with you later on if you give a decent explanation why it doesn't belong in the MK. But I'm never going to know that nor are the other people reading the forum if you avoid the questions and then just complain about people nagging you for more.

 

[spacemt354]

I'm not saying it's not educational, my point was almost each country has the countries travel agents there to plan a vacation to said country. I know for a fact Maelstrom did at the exit. I only was trying to make this point because people claiming that adding frozen to norway defeats the educational purpose isn't really valid.

It deflates the educational value because the connection between Frozen characters and the culture of Norway is inherently flawed in my perspective. If you're going to include characters in WS, I have no problem with that as long as it's subtle and takes place in the actual country. Mulan in China, Snow White in Germany, Belle in France, Mary Poppins in UK. No problem with that.

But Anna and Elsa live in a fictional country. They don't live in Norway. So to have their presence in Norway and argue that it deflates the educational value of the pavilion is absolutely valid. Kids will see Norway and think Elsa. But Elsa doesn't live in Norway. So the premise and the conclusion are not sound.

However, people could simply not care about the actual connection between the country and the characters. Eh it's close enough and it's inspired by Norway so it's the same.

People are more than welcome to that opinion, but it still doesn't change that fact.

 

[spacemt354]

To constantly insist on opinion and then spend multiple posts trying to refute them, and then continue to harangue them for realistic points of view is pretty darn close to demanding. And then you have those who later re-quote said person when they don't reply basically stating they had not realistic answer is another.

Do I need to continue with your past history.

Again, everyone has an opinion. As stated multiple times I get how the new Frozen M&G and Ride don't fit in original scope of WS. I also get why those who really love WS are feeling worried or plain disappointed.

I also understand wdisney9000's point of view of this is haphazard and could be sloppy since it is only a money grab. Obviously that is a definite possibility.

Some of us are of the opinion, that this could be the start of a re-staging of WS, and maybe expanding movie influence more into that section of the park. I for one am all for it, if it does not also remove what those areas originally were, and is just an enhancement.

Change is good, at least to me, but I see why some don't feel that way.

Also, since you called out my past history....

I joined in June 2012 as a huge WDW fan and argued anything I could for them when I first started. Go back if you need to but I can summarize here.

There were times where I called out anyone dissing the SDMT as it was being built. I told them they were being negative and should wait till it opened.

There were times I argued that Disney hasn't fallen apart and everyone was overreacting. I disagreed Disney was cheap.

Why do you think I'm so "vocal" now? I'm not trying to belittle you. It's because I've been in the same boat you and SnarkyMonkey have been in. In a roundabout way, I'm trying to make your forum time more enjoyable instead of constantly arguing about "opinions" and "demands" and other stuff. You learn as you are on here more often that criticism is just because people root for Disney to be the best they can be. Everyone's opinion on the matter differs, but in the end everyone wants a good experience.

Sometimes if you take a little break from the forums and come back to it later, it can help give a little perspective. I've taken several breaks and you come back with a little less angst than when you left. You also tend to see your opinions shift from such narrow views to more broader perspectives. I've found this through researching WDW and Disney history on your own helps understand where people from the 70s/80s are coming from when they say it was "better."

Whatever works, but since you called out my past history, I needed to address that directly because you are way off on that one...

 

[DC0703]

It deflates the educational value because the connection between Frozen characters and the culture of Norway is inherently flawed in my perspective. If you're going to include characters in WS, I have no problem with that as long as it's subtle and takes place in the actual country. Mulan in China, Snow White in Germany, Belle in France, Mary Poppins in UK. No problem with that.

To be fair, Disney has been moving away from educational content in all of the parks for a while now. They clearly have seen that characters sell tickets, merchandise and themed dinners. It's likely that Elsa and Anna will not be the last characters to be incorporated into the WS, much to the chagrin of many here.

Personally my feelings are mixed. I prefer the classic (character free) world showcase experience but do look forward to a new ride. I wasn't a big fan of Maelstrom.

 

[spacemt354]

To be fair, Disney has been moving away from educational content in all of the parks for a while now.

Oh absolutely, but it was much more subtle. I just think it would be a shame in terms of integrity if Epcot turned into Magic Kingdom 2.0

 

[ABQ]

Because it is the project and the same budget, originally the M&G was going into the merchandise shops, but then they changed their plans and now going to build a separate building, but they didn't increase the budget(yet?) so they are going to make more cuts in the ride budget to compensate for it.

Because there's so much unnecessarily back and forth about the back and forth in this thread and little discussion on the actual thread topic, I'm quoting Alek's post as it is actually meaningful and could prove to be a big, big deal on the final product. If they throw a huge portion of the budget into this M&G structure build out and do not increase the budget accordingly, the ride rebuild could really turn out even more atrocious than many assume it already would be.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

Because there's so much unnecessarily back and forth about the back and forth in this thread and little discussion on the actual thread topic, I'm quoting Alek's post as it is actually meaningful and could prove to be a big, big deal on the final product. If they throw a huge portion of the budget into this M&G structure build out and do not increase the budget accordingly, the ride rebuild could really turn out even more atrocious than many assume it already would be.

I think the ride and the M&G should be getting separate budgets, due to the fact that they are not being advertised as an expansion

 

[SnarkyMonkey]

I'm not saying it's not educational, my point was almost each country has the countries travel agents there to plan a vacation to said country. I know for a fact Maelstrom did at the exit. I only was trying to make this point because people claiming that adding frozen to norway defeats the educational purpose isn't really valid.

Just to clarify: Are you saying that there are travel agents in each of the WS pavilions to help you plan your trip to these countries? If that is what you are saying, are you sure? I have honestly never seen one. And if they are indeed there, they aren't doing a very good job of making themselves known.

But I have a feeling I'm completely misunderstanding what you said.

 

[wdisney9000]

Because there's so much unnecessarily back and forth about the back and forth in this thread and little discussion on the actual thread topic, I'm quoting Alek's post as it is actually meaningful and could prove to be a big, big deal on the final product. If they throw a huge portion of the budget into this M&G structure build out and do not increase the budget accordingly, the ride rebuild could really turn out even more atrocious than many assume it already would be.

I had that same notion when I read his post earlier. It IS a game changer if true. My expectations were low already. But what a blow if it's true.

With all due respect for those excited about a Frozen ride, I truly hope they blow it. I hope they blow it big time.., i hope they slash the budget to the point where it cant be denied that theu took the cheap route. Only in the hopes that it could cause a light to shine on the nasty underbelly of how ridiculously the parks are being cared for. I said "cared for", not operated. Operational wise, they are practically printing money. Kudos in that aspect, Mr. Iger. But the stock price increase and the happiness of Wall Street has come at a price, deary.

The absence of a true desire to enhance the theme parks in Orlando coupled with huge stock buybacks could take quite some time to repair. The parks have an almost timeless quality that will last for decades, but it could take someone as risky as Walt himself to push the envelope of spending and delegation of creativeness to put to the parks that lay in the Florida swamps back on track in a timely fashion. By 'on track ' I simply mean at the forefront of excitement and innovention.

I hope this is true and this ride bombs and enough media attention is given that even a small amount of people get upset and it forces the company to take notice how much O-town has been neglected. But sadly, this ride could have cut out pop-ups, recycled AA's, and no cohesive theme whatsoever, but the Frozen fans will line up all day and night simply because it's Frozen, and it will be heralded as a complete success.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It deflates the educational value because the connection between Frozen characters and the culture of Norway is inherently flawed in my perspective. If you're going to include characters in WS, I have no problem with that as long as it's subtle and takes place in the actual country. Mulan in China, Snow White in Germany, Belle in France, Mary Poppins in UK. No problem with that.

If characters are going to be included, then the characters should at least come from the represented culture. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is based on a Germany story, and thus has a connection to Germany. Mulan is based on a Chinese tale. Even if Frozen was explicitly set in Norway, it is still not even based on a Norwegian story. And its inspiration story, The Snow Queen, has been repeatedly downplayed in this very thread because it is the work of a Danish author.

 

[DC0703]

With all due respect for those excited about a Frozen ride, I truly hope they blow it. I hope they blow it big time.., i hope they slash the budget to the point where it cant be denied that theu took the cheap route. Only in the hopes that it could cause a light to shine on the nasty underbelly of how ridiculously the parks are being cared for.

Be careful what you wish for... Even if the ride were to bomb, it's unlikely that upper management would have a moment of clarity. Instead they would look for a scapegoat to explain the failure and cut back on future expenditures. There is usually too much ego at the top to admit mistakes.

As you said at the end of your post, even if they go the cheap route, it will have legions of Frozen fans lining up, so success is mostly guaranteed regardless of quality.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

Just to clarify: Are you saying that there are travel agents in each of the WS pavilions to help you plan your trip to these countries? If that is what you are saying, are you sure? I have honestly never seen one. And if they are indeed there, they aren't doing a very good job of making themselves known.

But I have a feeling I'm completely misunderstanding what you said.

No, I'm pretty sure there was one at the exit of the maelstrom ride at least the last time I went on it,

 

[H2O_Mouse-Ears]

It’s not elitist to ask why you have an opinion. It’s trying to become more educated by listening to opposing viewpoints. Contrary to popular belief it is possible to change your mind. Explaining different points of view is what we should be doing more of, not less. If you feel threatened by defending your point of view, perhaps you should re-examine why you have that point of view, because it was likely arrived at without enough thought.

Agreed. The Socratic Method is a time-proven method to both enlighten and gain enlightenment. Promotes healthy discussions, innovative ideas, and self-reflection, which are what these forums are all about! Come in with an open mind!

 

[MagicHappens1971]

Yes, I agree. Just remember that opinions are neither right or wrong people...they're just opinions!

Also, remember that expressing opposite views helps you become a more enlightened person, even if you don't particularly agree on what the other person is saying.

Do you even go here?

 

[Cesar R M]

I'm not saying it's not educational, my point was almost each country has the countries travel agents there to plan a vacation to said country. I know for a fact Maelstrom did at the exit. I only was trying to make this point because people claiming that adding frozen to norway defeats the educational purpose isn't really valid.

Man, Id totally want to book a plane to Arendelle.. oh wait.. IT DOESNT EXIST!

 

[Snowflake82]

No, I'm pretty sure there was one at the exit of the maelstrom ride at least the last time I went on it,

I know they were there back in the late 1990's, but I think they have been gone for a long time. (This was before fast pass. The old fast pass machines may have gone into the area where he travel agents used to be.)

 

[DisDan]

It deflates the educational value because the connection between Frozen characters and the culture of Norway is inherently flawed in my perspective. If you're going to include characters in WS, I have no problem with that as long as it's subtle and takes place in the actual country. Mulan in China, Snow White in Germany, Belle in France, Mary Poppins in UK. No problem with that.

But Anna and Elsa live in a fictional country. They don't live in Norway. So to have their presence in Norway and argue that it deflates the educational value of the pavilion is absolutely valid. Kids will see Norway and think Elsa. But Elsa doesn't live in Norway. So the premise and the conclusion are not sound.

However, people could simply not care about the actual connection between the country and the characters. Eh it's close enough and it's inspired by Norway so it's the same.

People are more than welcome to that opinion, but it still doesn't change that fact.

But Anna and Elsa are cartoons and so is Snow White and Mulan, and Mary Poppins is a fictional character. Neither of them actually live in those respective countries. I don't see how that's any different, Disney can say the landscape in which Frozen takes place looks very much like Norway, which it does. In the end all those characters live in drawn world that mimic a part of the real world. The fact that Disney called Anna and Elsa's land Arendele should not really make that BIG a difference.