Disney and Universal working on Marvel deal for Florida?

[Rodan75]

The reconciling item is new hotels. Infrastructure that also generates revenue and increases capacity.

Agreed, but new hotels would require more roads and busses and related infrastructure...and then folks will still want to go to the MK. So anything that increases overall WDW attendance would also have to equate to MK expansion (and improvements to get folks to leverage current capacity). So I think anything at this point that would grow revenue would keep margins flat at best.

It is an interesting puzzle that TWDC needs to figure out...and I think a big reason why we don't know more about what is happening at DHS yet.

They know they can increase attendance at WDW, but I'm not sure if they have decided yet if they want to see double digit growth. They are doing the bare minimum (even with major projects underway at every park) to keep attendance and re-balance attendance but aren't doing things to drive attendance.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Agreed, but new hotels would require more roads and busses and related infrastructure...and then folks will still want to go to the MK.

Definitely agree.

So anything that increases overall WDW attendance would also have to equate to MK expansion (and improvements to get folks to leverage current capacity).

Definitely disagree. The best way to help MK is to get the other parks up to MK's level. Throwing expansion projects at MK just makes it that much "more better" than the other parks, exacerbating the imbalance issue.

 

[Rodan75]

Definitely agree.


Definitely disagree. The best way to help MK is to get the other parks up to MK's level. Throwing expansion projects at MK just makes it that much "more better" than the other parks, exacerbating the imbalance issue.

I think that is the exact conundrum they find themselves in. If they increase overall WDW capacity that have to increase/improve MK capacity to compensate, if they increase/improve MK Capacity they have to increase overall WDW capacity to compensate, which is a cycle/problem that I don't think they have solved. Which is why they are stagnating.

 

[lebeau]

Counter-point: Any work that Age of Ultron had to do to set up Phase 3 was offset by exposition it didn't have to do for its own plot because those points were covered in previous films. If it was a standalone film, you could have cut the things in your spoilers tag, but then you would have had to include exposition of what Asgard is and why one if its citizens is on Earth, who this guy with the eye patch is, why Tony calls Cap "old man," where these flying suits came from, how this team came to be in the first place, and on and on. The exposition done in past films more than covers what Age of Ultron had to set up for future films.

Spoiler: Spoilers

And again, I don't think the trip to Wakanda felt like an unnecessary setup for Black Panther at all. It felt like a perfectly legitimate plot point within the movie that Ultron would want to upgrade himself.

Another thought is that this whole debate feels like a transition that's been happening in television for a few years. Case-of-the-week and standalone episodes of both comedies and dramas has been the status quo for decades. You can watch any episode of Big Bang Theory or Law and Order without knowing how it fits in that show's continuity. The studios love it because those kinds of shows are easy to sell for syndication. But episodic storytelling like we see on cable shows like Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad is becoming the new model. That's the model that the MCU is mirroring on the big screen.

I think your counter-point is a stretch. Phase 1 was all about establishing the characters, their worlds and how they interact. The first Avengers movie was the big payoff to that. But the sequel really isn't a payoff in the same way the first movie was. It's more of a retread with teasers for future movies.

It's funny you bring up TV. Whedon just did an interview where he said how much more complicated it is to coordinate the movies now that TV is in the mix. The problems created by continuity are only now being felt in the movies. But it's likely to become more obtrusive over time.

 

[H2O_Mouse-Ears]

Whedon just did an interview where he said how much more complicated it is to coordinate the movies now that TV is in the mix. The problems created by continuity are only now being felt in the movies. But it's likely to become more obtrusive over time.

i.e. Coulson

 

[lebeau]

i.e. Coulson

One he specifically cited was that he had just launched a show about SHIELD right before Captain America Winter Soldier came about and dismantled SHIELD. If you watched the show, the first season suffered greatly while it padded out storylines waiting for that development. Whedon said it's only gotten worse since. And with the Netflix shows going on, you can imagine how much more complicated it's likely to get.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

It's funny you bring up TV. Whedon just did an interview where he said how much more complicated it is to coordinate the movies now that TV is in the mix. The problems created by continuity are only now being felt in the movies. But it's likely to become more obtrusive over time.

I'm going to invent a term and say that I think TV is a "plot taker" in that regard. Feige builds the framework and the film directors and writers operate within that framework. The the TV guys take what the movie guys give them. I haven't seen Whedon's interview but I'd guess that it's much more difficult for the TV guys to have to keep up with what the movies are doing than vice versa. The TV stuff is generally much lower-stake and deals with the fallout of world-altering events rather than depicting the world-altering events themselves.

Back to the other point we've been discussing about AOU being a set-up for phase 3... are you a comic reader at all? I think it's an interesting point of comparison because comic books often feel that way. Yeah, I just finished reading a satisfying story but I feel like it's still trying to get me to buy the next issue. Avengers Disassembled was a great arc but in many ways it felt like a set-up for House of M, which set up the "no more mutants" arcs, and on and on.

 

[lebeau]

I'm going to invent a term and say that I think TV is a "plot taker" in that regard. Feige builds the framework and the film directors and writers operate within that framework. The the TV guys take what the movie guys give them. I haven't seen Whedon's interview but I'd guess that it's much more difficult for the TV guys to have to keep up with what the movies are doing than vice versa. The TV stuff is generally much lower-stake and deals with the fallout of world-altering events rather than depicting the world-altering events themselves.

Back to the other point we've been discussing about AOU being a set-up for phase 3... are you a comic reader at all? I think it's an interesting point of comparison because comic books often feel that way. Yeah, I just finished reading a satisfying story but I feel like it's still trying to get me to buy the next issue. Avengers Disassembled was a great arc but in many ways it felt like a set-up for House of M, which set up the "no more mutants" arcs, and on and on.

Whedon was speaking as a guy in both worlds. He was frustrated on the one hand having to deal with the scraps the movies would allow him to use on his TV show. On the other hand, he was frustrated by the intricacies of keeping the movies lined up with the shows. There's no doubt the movies are the dog and the TV show is the tail. Things flow from movies to TV shows. But to a lesser extent the movies have to keep the TV shows in mind as well.

I don't currently read a lot of comics. But I have. It's funny you bring up House of M and Avengers Disassembled because that's about when Marvel comics went off on a run. It was one event story leading into another without any story ever really having a satisfying conclusion. Civil War and Secret Invasion I recall were especially bad offenders. Age of Ultron reminded me very much of that style of Marvel storytelling.

Eventually, movie audiences will get fed up with that. Especially when you have to wait years between movies instead of weeks between comics.

 

[Progress.City]

Personally, I'd wait until after AK gets one more big addition after Pandora, DHS gets a Pixar expansion and Star Wars Land, and Epcot gets a major addition and overhaul after Frozen before expansion of MK.

But if I had to determine MK's 10 biggest needs

1. Fixing Tomorrowland (bulldoze the Speedway which would make room for a Fantasyland expansion and a Tomorrowland expansion behind Speedway/Space... 2 new E-tickets and I new C-ticket for Tomorrowland as a result, retheme Stitch, revamp CoP, update Space Mountain)
2. Family dark ride for Frontierland (Western River Expedition or something original)
3. Thrill ride for Adventureland (Fire Mountain, Indiana Jones or JttCotE - any of those three)
4. Relocation of Philmarmagic to Main Street
5. Peter Pan revamp/expansion
6. Rework backstage infrastructure behind IASW/Mermaid to enable further Fantasyland expansion
7. Better show quality for Storybook Circus
8. Wonderland mini-land
9. Actual dark ride for B&TB
10. Removal of Princess Fairytale Hall for a moderate capacity dark ride

Do an estimate on the cost of your plan. I think it far exceeds the $700 million guestination for my plan. I'm still waiting on Martin to give me a more accurate estimate of my plan... Martin?

If I had to prioritize the work...

1. All ride upgrades first - Space Mountain, BTMRR (new smooth track and DL ending), Peter Pan, and Haunted Mansion (hat box ghost).

2. Fire Mountain - Adventureland desperately needs something! The work would also add a new dark ride element to Jungle Cruise and also to the WDWRR, not to mention the thematic value it adds to the Polynesian Resort!

These first two steps are doable now and probably could be done using the usual capex budget, since all the design work and engineering has already been paid for.

Martin, what's your estimate on #1 & 2 combined?

The next one would be a bit costly, since there is no land reserved for it and would need to be found, if it even exists. Again, I'll ask Martin.

Martin, can the land behind NFL accommodate #3?

3. Rebuilding IASW in its own show building, replicating the DL version and building a replica of Alice (in its own show building) right next to it, gutting the current IASW show building and finding something to replace it with.

 

[marni1971]

Do an estimate on the cost of your plan. I think it far exceeds the $700 million of my guestination. I'm still waiting on Martin to give me a more accurate estimate of my plan... Martin?

If I had to prioritize the work...

1. All ride upgrades first - Space Mountain, BTMRR, Peter Pan, Haunted Mansion

2. Fire Mountain - Adventureland desperately needs something! The work would also add a new dark ride element to Jungle Cruise and also to the WDWRR, not to mention the thematic value it adds to the Polynesian Resort!

These first two steps are doable now and probably could be done using the usual capex budget, since all the design work and engineering has already been paid for.

Martin, what's your estimate on #1 & 2 combined?

The next one would be a bit costly, since there is no land reserved for it and would need to be found, if it even exists. Again, I'll ask Martin.

Martin, can the land behind NFL accommodate #3?

3. Rebuilding IASW in its own show building, replicating the DL version and building a replica of Alice (in its own show building) right next to it, gutting the current IASW show building and finding something to replace it with.

I'm not expert but....

Double 700 million and you're getting there.

Estimate on Space? 40-50. Maybe more. BTM? 1-2. Pan? 2-3. There again remember this is WDI.

3- it can fit in the land, but the land is swamp. Totally unprepared with no support or infrastructure. Alse need to reroute MK Drive. No way TDO would think about moving and rebuilding with the costs involved.

 

[Progress.City]

I'm not expert but....

Double 700 million and you're getting there.

Estimate on Space? 40-50. Maybe more. BTM? 1-2. Pan? 2-3. There again remember this is WDI.

3- it can fit in the land, but the land is swamp. Totally unprepared with no support or infrastructure. Alse need to reroute MK Drive. No way TDO would think about moving and rebuilding with the costs involved.

So, you guesstimate about $50 million for the ride upgrades. How much was Fire Mountain estimated for back then? How much would it cost if built today? $400 million?

 

[Mike S]

Wow, so sorry. I did not insert the correct spoiler macro.

No problem, I should probably stay off the internet if I don't want to read spoilers.

 

[marni1971]

So, you guesstimate about $50 million for the ride upgrades. How much was Fire Mountain estimated for back then? How much would it cost if built today? $400 million?

I've no idea. Today it's a few hundred. For one attraction.

Partly blame WDI and the hierarchy for that.

 

[Progress.City]

I've no idea. Today it's a few hundred. For one attraction.

Partly blame WDI and the hierarchy for that.

The project was to add an indoor element to the WDWRR, like Splash Mountain did. Also, it would have required Jungle Cruise to be reroute and new indoor show elements to that too (with the mountain being built on top). So, your estimate is for the ride only and does not include the indoor elements for WDWRR and Jungle Cruise? I can't see why it should be more expensive than NFL. The engineering work was completed years ago, so that should save some bucks, or would they need to do it all over since all that time has elapsed?

 

[marni1971]

The project was to add an indoor element to the WDWRR, like Splash Mountain did. Also, it would have required Jungle Cruise to be reroute and new indoor show elements to that too (with the mountain being built on top). So, your estimate is for the ride only and does not include the indoor elements for WDWRR and Jungle Cruise? I can't see why it should be more expensive than NFL. The engineering work was completed years ago, so that should save some bucks, or would they need to do it all over since all that time has elapsed?

Oh, I know the project. The quote was for ride and ride system and associates.

The JC wasn't going to be rerouted. At least not for one version of it.

 

[Progress.City]

Oh, I know the project. The quote was for ride and ride system and associates.

The JC wasn't going to be rerouted. At least not for one version of it.

Okay, while I have you focused on FM, maybe you can answer a long-standing mystery for me. Who pulled the plug on the project? I know it was one of Eisner's pet projects and can't see him having anything to do with canceling it. It's been my belief that the cord was pulled soon after Iger became CEO. Am I correct in assuming this?

 

[PhotoDave219]

Thanks all for using the spoiler tag.

 

[Jimmy McAllan]

I will be coming to Orlando on May 5th, 2015.

 

[mahnamahna101]

Do an estimate on the cost of your plan. I think it far exceeds the $700 million guestination for my plan. I'm still waiting on Martin to give me a more accurate estimate of my plan... Martin?

If I had to prioritize the work...

1. All ride upgrades first - Space Mountain, BTMRR (new smooth track and DL ending), Peter Pan, and Haunted Mansion (hat box ghost).

2. Fire Mountain - Adventureland desperately needs something! The work would also add a new dark ride element to Jungle Cruise and also to the WDWRR, not to mention the thematic value it adds to the Polynesian Resort!

These first two steps are doable now and probably could be done using the usual capex budget, since all the design work and engineering has already been paid for.

Martin, what's your estimate on #1 & 2 combined?

The next one would be a bit costly, since there is no land reserved for it and would need to be found, if it even exists. Again, I'll ask Martin.

Martin, can the land behind NFL accommodate #3?

3. Rebuilding IASW in its own show building, replicating the DL version and building a replica of Alice (in its own show building) right next to it, gutting the current IASW show building and finding something to replace it with.

My plan isn't supposed to be realistic. It's what MK needs. Some are more urgent than others (Tomorrowland, Adventureland, Frontierland).

I'd guess $3-3.5 billion for my plan. Definitely not gonna happen

 

[marni1971]

Okay, while I have you focused on FM, maybe you can answer a long-standing mystery for me. Who pulled the plug on the project? I know it was one of Eisner's pet projects and can't see him having anything to do with canceling it. It's been my belief that the cord was pulled soon after Iger became CEO. Am I correct in assuming this?

Before drifting off topic too far, Fire was axed with Eisner still in charge.