Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Do you realize how much less confused I may have been with simple representation per usual? I may not have wasted my teen years trying to force myself to do things. I might not have wasted my early 20’s when it came to starting my romantic life (I came out at 25.) I certainly wouldn’t have attempted suicide at 19.

I think that’s worth making some old farts uncomfortable or mad.

So I think a Latina seeing herself as the de facto #1 princess, and not just an ancillary one, can affect many lives in positive ways - and white people don’t lose anything in the process unless they decide to be upset. I decide not to be upset. I’m happy to give others a turn.

This kind of reinforces my point though, when they finally do make a movie centered around a gay character I hope it’s not a simple character swap and is something similar to Turning Red that explores the confusion, struggles, supportive friends, and is a coming of age story that will speak to gay kids rather than just a retelling of Aladdin where Aladdin happens to be gay.

Would a gay Aladdin have made you less confused as a kid or would you rather see a new, purpose written, story like Turning Red that actually addresses the struggles and inner questions of gay kids and shows how the character comes to accept it?

I’d argue the same with the Latina Princess, do you think little Latina girls will relate more with Elena and Maribel, purpose written Latina characters, or Zeglers Snow White?

ETA… these are genuine questions, maybe as a straight white man I simply don’t get the power of simple representation and maybe all it does take is a gay Aladdin, that seems lazy to me but I’m not the intended audience so maybe I just can’t comprehend it.

 

[brideck]

If you’re going to spend $200 million making a movie why not make something original like Encanto that will be remembered for decades by everyone, wouldn’t that be a better use of money and talent than another slightly changed remake that will be important to a few but quickly forgotten by most?

If the movie-going public didn't reward franchises/remakes, then you wouldn't see them get made. Though you and I may not see much of a point to them, the masses seem to disagree. And they're never wrong, right?

 

[TP2000]

I grew up in the 70’s with zero gay representation on TV or in movies unless it was bad.

I am older than you and was out on the town boogeying my way through the 70's, and I don't remember it being quite as bleak as that.

Off the top of my head, I can think of several major network prime-time TV shows that had very positive and normalized gay representation starting around 1973 or so.... The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Maude, Soap, and I'm sure there were some others.

The references stick in my mind 50 years later because it was done so well then, and presented us as normal and routine parts of society. Sure, there were still a lot of gay jokes and gay double entendre going around in some adult-themed shows, but the early and mid 70's were also when gay folks could be on prime time networks and be shown as just average, normal Americans. It was a huge change, and we were thrilled. After all, you can't go from segregated drinking fountains to President Obama in only two years time; big societal change requires individual steps and subtle progression.

And then of course there's every single damn episode of The Hollywood Squares in the 1970's with Paul Lynde in the center square. That was always a good time!

 

[DKampy]

Off the top of my head, I can think of several major network prime-time TV shows that had very positive and normalized gay representation starting around 1973 or so.... The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Maude, Soap, and I'm sure there were some others.

Which why it feels like we are regressing backwards… series like Maude and All in the Family would be deemed “woke” by today’s standards

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The only “gay” shows I watched regularly were Will and Grace, Queer eye for the straight guy, and Modern family and I don’t recall any of them being called woke. The first 2 may have been before woke became a commonly used term though.

 

[Agent H]

This kind of reinforces my point though, when they finally do make a movie centered around a gay character I hope it’s not a simple character swap and is something similar to Turning Red that explores the confusion, struggles, supportive friends, and is a coming of age story that will speak to gay kids rather than just a retelling of Aladdin where Aladdin happens to be gay.

Would a gay Aladdin have made you less confused as a kid or would you rather see a new, purpose written, story like Turning Red that actually addresses the struggles and inner questions of gay kids and shows how the character comes to accept it?

I’d argue the same with the Latina Princess, do you think little Latina girls will relate more with Elena and Maribel, purpose written Latina characters, or Zeglers Snow White?

ETA… these are genuine questions, maybe as a straight white man I simply don’t get the power of simple representation and maybe all it does take is a gay Aladdin, that seems lazy to me but I’m not the intended audience so maybe I just can’t comprehend it.

You do make a good point I don’t feel the way I normally do about a statement like this whenever I see it in YouTube comment sections I go

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

You do make a good point I don’t feel the way I normally do about a statement like this whenever I see it in YouTube comment sections I go

I mostly agree but there are a few good ones, I’m a huge hockey fan and sites like the Hockey Guy have good discussions in the comments, same is true of most “car” sites like Vice Grip Garage, you get a few Ford vs Dodge comments but for the most part it’s just people talking about cars.

I don’t even bother with the comment sections on sites involving politics or social issues though because they are bound to be troll central.

 

[Agent H]

I mostly agree but there are a few good ones, I’m a huge hockey fan and sites like the Hockey Guy have good discussions in the comments, same is true of most “car” sites like Vice Grip Garage, you get a few Ford vs Dodge comments but for the most part it’s just people talking about cars.

I don’t even bother with the comment sections on sites involving politics or social issues though because they are bound to be troll central.

I was referring to YouTube specifically as a platform it’s really going downhill

 

[TP2000]

Which why it feels like we are regressing backwards… series like Maude and All in the Family would be deemed “woke” by today’s standards

I don't know about that, as they were certainly unapologetically liberal shows created by a liberal team. But I don't think they crossed the line into "woke" as we know and use that word today. (Or at least how many people use the word "woke" as a put down or criticism) Tellingly, those 70's shows often had huge weekly audiences and were in the Top 10 in the ratings.

The stuff on TV that is "woke" today is often watched by almost no one, or at best has a very limited pop culture reach. I was a huge fan of Schitt's Creek the moment it first aired due to my longtime love of anything Catherine O'Hara is in; that show had multiple gay characters and plotlines, but it was such an overwhelmingly fun and funny show that no one seemed to care. That's as it should be. Schitt's Creek wasn't woke, it was just damn funny.

All that said, in the 1970's for every gay character or plotline who showed up quietly on Mary Tyler Moore or Maude, there were 10 other shows that were shlocky and horrible in the 70's. The list of utter crap that was found on the 3 networks in that decade is a mile long.

I don't think young people realize how great TV is now that we have Netflix and Apple+ and so many niche cable networks for programming our evenings. If they went back in time and spent one Tuesday night in 1977 trying to entertain themselves with the 3 networks, they'd die.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I was referring to YouTube specifically as a platform it’s really going downhill

I think it depends on the YouTube genre, the 2 I mentioned above are both YouTube sites and they’re 99% positive, I watch a lot of golf channels and travel channels on YouTube and they’re nearly all positive also.

Written word is hard to decipher, I end up editing a lot of my posts here after rereading them, I love genuine discussion but after rereading a lot of my posts I realize they come off as argumentative or don’t adequately convey what I want them too. That’s just the nature of written word with no context.

 

[Agent H]

I think it depends on the YouTube genre, the 2 I mentioned above are both YouTube sites and they’re 99% positive, I watch a lot of golf channels and travel channels on YouTube and they’re nearly all positive also.

Written word is hard to decipher, I end up editing a lot of my posts here after rereading them, I love genuine discussion but after rereading a lot of my posts I realize they come off as argumentative or don’t adequately convey what I want them too. That’s just the nature of written word with no context.

Well my feed is full of that it probably has to do with the fact that I watch a lot of film and tv stuff

 

[TP2000]

The only “gay” shows I watched regularly were Will and Grace, Queer eye for the straight guy, and Modern family and I don’t recall any of them being called woke. The first 2 may have been before woke became a commonly used term though.

Agreed. Most folks I know use the term "woke" as a criticism when something looks/feels forced and inorganic, or just too cringey to deal with. And that's how I tend to use the word too. You know "woke" when you see it, and it just reads as wrong.

Stuff like.... Dylan Mulvaney celebrating one year of girlhood with a Bud Light, Gillette razors telling their male customer base that masculinity is inherently toxic, making a kids hockey coach a Black Lesbian which is almost statistically impossible, etc., etc.

Seamlessly weaving a gay character or two into plotlines and story arcs, and making them the simple equal of other straight characters, isn't "woke". In the 21st century, that's just normal storytelling for the most part. It would only be woke if it seemed forced and fake and completely out of place for mere shock value or virtue signaling by the sponsor or studio.

 

[Agent H]

Agreed. Most folks I know use the term "woke" as a criticism when something looks/feels forced and inorganic, or just too cringey to deal with.

Stuff like.... Dylan Mulvaney celebrating one year of girlhood with a Bud Light, Gillette razors telling their male customer base that masculinity is inherently toxic, making a kids hockey coach a Black Lesbian which is almost statistically impossible, etc., etc.

Seamlessly weaving a gay character or two into plotlines and story arcs, and making them the simple equal of other straight characters, isn't "woke". In the 21st century, that's just normal storytelling for the most part. It would only be woke if it seemed forced and fake and completely out of place for mere shock value or virtue signaling by the sponsor or studio.

If your friends are using woke as a criticism maybe they need to be told what it actually means while I agree that there is definitely bad representation ( rise of skywalker has entered the chat) it is never done for shock value

 

[TP2000]

If your friends are using woke as a criticism maybe they need to be told what it actually means while I agree that there is definitely bad representation ( rise of skywalker has entered the chat) it is never done for shock value

Funny you mention that. Over in the Disneyland forum a few years ago, there was a poster who is a Black young lady who kept chastising us non-Blacks for using the word "woke" wrong. She even went so far as to suggest we should not be using the word at all unless we were Black. I declined her instruction to obey her on that one.

I liken the mid 2020's use of the word "woke" to the term "hippie". Hippie started in the counter-culture community itself around 1967 to describe themselves, but quickly got picked up by media and the squares and by 1970 was used to describe anyone who had long hair or a counter-culture lifestyle of any kind. People who may not necessarily have been a hippie were called hippies just by the way they styled (or didn't style) their hair, or if they simply drove a VW.

Same thing with woke. Whatever meaning it might have had in 2014 in academia or in some niche cultures has been usurped by mass media and pop culture. "Woke" is now the word to describe a Dylan Mulvaney Bud Light ad, whether we like it or not.

 

[Disney Irish]

....making a kids hockey coach a Black Lesbian which is almost statistically impossible, etc., etc.

I'm sorry but wait a minute, when was the sexuality of the coach in Inside Out 2 ever discussed? I've seen the movie a few times and I can't recall it ever being discussed. So how do you know she is a lesbian, or straight, or anything other than a black female coach of a girls hockey team? I think this is an assumption on your part, not the actual reality.

Also its not a statistical impossibility to have a black female coach in hockey, as I showed in the Inside Out 2 thread when this same topic was brought up there is actually a black female head coach in hockey today. Here is an updated story about the same coach, who is now the head coach of an NCAA Hockey team -

Color of Hockey: 'Rising star' Koelzer excelling as 1st Black woman coach of NCAA team | NHL.com

Guided Division III Arcadia to 2024 conference championship in program's 3rd season

www.nhl.com

 

[TP2000]

I'm sorry but wait a minute, when was the sexuality of the coach in Inside Out 2 ever discussed? I've seen the movie a few times and I can't recall it ever being discussed. So how do you know she is a lesbian, or straight, or anything other than a black female coach of a girls hockey team? I think this is an assumption on your part, not the actual reality.

Also its not a statistical impossibility to have a black female coach in hockey, as I showed in the Inside Out 2 thread when this same topic was brought up. Here is an updated story about the same coach, who is now the head coach of an NCAA Hockey team -

Color of Hockey: 'Rising star' Koelzer excelling as 1st Black woman coach of NCAA team | NHL.com

Guided Division III Arcadia to 2024 conference championship in program's 3rd season

www.nhl.com

Breathe.

I made up that plotline and pulled that example out of thin air, as I vaguely remember it being discussed in a thread here or on the Disneyland side.

The fact that you have to dig up some article to prove that somewhere on planet Earth there is a Black lady who coaches hockey proves the point.

If you have to go to Google to see if something actually exists, it's not going to read as organic to the audience.

 

[Agent H]

I'm sorry but wait a minute, when was the sexuality of the coach in Inside Out 2 ever discussed? I've seen the movie a few times and I can't recall it ever being discussed. So how do you know she is a lesbian, or straight, or anything other than a black female coach of a girls hockey team? I think this is an assumption on your part, not the actual reality.

Also its not a statistical impossibility to have a black female coach in hockey, as I showed in the Inside Out 2 thread when this same topic was brought up there is actually a black female head coach in hockey today. Here is an updated story about the same coach, who is now the head coach of an NCAA Hockey team -

Color of Hockey: 'Rising star' Koelzer excelling as 1st Black woman coach of NCAA team | NHL.com

Guided Division III Arcadia to 2024 conference championship in program's 3rd season

www.nhl.com

It was not mentioned and the fact we even have to prove that a black woman could a hockey coach is sad

 

[Agent H]

Funny you mention that. Over in the Disneyland forum a few years ago, there was a poster who is a Black young lady who kept chastising us non-Blacks for using the word "woke" wrong. She even went so far as to suggest we should not be using the word at all unless we were Black. I declined her instruction to obey her on that one.

I liken the mid 2020's use of the word "woke" to the term "hippie". Hippie started in the counter-culture community itself around 1967 to describe themselves, but quickly got picked up by media and the squares and by 1970 was used to describe anyone who had long hair or a counter-culture lifestyle of any kind. People who may not necessarily have been a hippie were called hippies just by the way they styled (or didn't style) their hair, or if they simply drove a VW.

Same thing with woke. Whatever meaning it might have had in 2014 in academia or in some niche cultures has been usurped by mass media and pop culture. "Woke" is now the word to describe a Dylan Mulvaney Bud Light ad, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that non-black people can’t use the word but it is used wrong probably 700 times a day across the entire internet

 

[TP2000]

It was not mentioned and the fact we even have to prove that a black woman could a hockey coach is sad

As I said above, if you have to do a Google search for proof, it's not a natural fit for a plotline or story. Especially for a brief background character who shouldn't be taking the spotlight from primary characters.

That's what reads as "woke" to many people today. It jars people out of the story too much, and thus annoys people.

 

[Disney Irish]

Breathe.

I made up that plotline and pulled that example out of thin air, as I vaguely remember it being discussed in a thread here or on the Disneyland side.

The fact that you have to dig up some article to prove that somewhere on planet Earth there is a Black lady who coaches hockey proves the point.

If you have to go to Google to see if something actually exists, it's not going to read as organic to the audience.

I didn't have to google it because I knew she existed, also my point is that the movie doesn't even broach the topic of the coaches sexuality, that is really what I have an issue with. That is an assumption you've made based on it appears nothing as you just admitted you pulled it out of thin air and made it up, classic TP. So my breathing is just fine, thank you for your concern though on making sure I get enough oxygen.

Also it may not read as organic to YOU to have a black female coach, but to others who are young females of color its important and reads as perfectly normal to have such a coach in a story.