Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[AdventureHasAName]

They obviously miscalculated what Star Wars is from the start

They understood what it was. They just hired people who hated what it was and wanted it changed (for the better good). And since those people were equal parts incompetent and delusional, what was produced turned off the original fans that made the original trilogy the mega-franchise that it was. And the people they expected to replace those fans, predictably, never materialized.

They are doing the same thing with Marvel now.

 

[Disney Irish]

What Lifetime movie features a petty decades-old disagreement between two family members based on a total misunderstanding ... that is only cleared up after the two are able to see things from the other's perspective ... leading to a full reconciliation at the conclusion? What Hallmark movie features the plucky go-getter kid that just wants everyone to be happy and work together and really hates it when their loved ones are engaged in a feud? What Lifetime movie features the meddling comic relief secondary family members that just have to be perpetually involved in the protagonist's daily struggle at the heart of the film? What Hallmark movie features a herd of animals that always seem to be getting into everything and causing subplots for the protagonists to solve? What Lifetime movie features a ballroom dance with a prince?

You just described the underlying plots of what I would guess would be 70-80% of Hollywood movies of the last 100 years.

Every story ever told takes from what comes before it, there is nothing original and hasn't been for thousands of years. Basically its just repackaging what came before in a new way to try to tell an interesting story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. For me Marvels works, but others it doesn't. But to boil it down to just a Lifetime movie doesn't understand all stories are basically just the retelling of something that come before.

That is why I never understand the saying, Hollywood doesn't know how to tell new original stories anymore. They never did, since the beginning they took stories from other mediums and common tropes and repackaged them that is all. That is what built Disney, taking stories from classic fairy tales and repackaged them via the new medium at the time animation.

 

[Jedijax719]

You just described the underlying plots of what I would guess would be 70-80% of Hollywood movies of the last 100 years.

Every story ever told takes from what comes before it, there is nothing original and hasn't been for thousands of years. Basically its just repackaging what came before in a new way to try to tell an interesting story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. For me Marvels works, but others it doesn't. But to boil it down to just a Lifetime movie doesn't understand all stories are basically just the retelling of something that come before.

That is why I never understand the saying, Hollywood doesn't know how to tell new original stories anymore. They never did, since the beginning they took stories from other mediums and common tropes and repackaged them that is all. That is what built Disney, taking stories from classic fairy tales and repackaged them via the new medium at the time animation.

I think writers are constantly coming up with new stuff. That is why there are so many new books all the time. The main problem is that Hollywood doesn't want to or know how to SELL new stories (I don't have the answers either). Marketing new stuff is a problem because familiarity is really what catches people's attention. If you don't have that, you have to rely either on star power or amazing visuals. The former comes and goes with each passing hour. The latter is hard because Avatar pretty much hit the peak in visuals and everyone complains about how much CGI is used, no matter how good it looks. So therefore they tend to go back to sequels, prequels, and remakes. The only exceptions have been animated, but even those have suffered lately. That's exactly why Disney just dropped announcements about a slew of sequels.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They understood what it was. They just hired people who hated what it was and wanted it changed (for the better good). And since those people were equal parts incompetent and delusional, what was produced turned off the original fans that made the original trilogy the mega-franchise that it was. And the people they expected to replace those fans, predictably, never materialized.

They are doing the same thing with Marvel now.

That means they don’t get it…never did

 

[Prince-1]

What Lifetime movie features a petty decades-old disagreement between two family members based on a total misunderstanding ... that is only cleared up after the two are able to see things from the other's perspective ... leading to a full reconciliation at the conclusion? What Hallmark movie features the plucky go-getter kid that just wants everyone to be happy and work together and really hates it when their loved ones are engaged in a feud? What Lifetime movie features the meddling comic relief secondary family members that just have to be perpetually involved in the protagonist's daily struggle at the heart of the film? What Hallmark movie features a herd of animals that always seem to be getting into everything and causing subplots for the protagonists to solve? What Lifetime movie features a ballroom dance with a prince?

Since all you did was answer my question with a whole list of questions I'm going to assume that you have no clue either. And most of the movies made in Hollywood have some of those subplots you asked about so you didn't really help your argument.

 

[Disney Irish]

I think writers are constantly coming up with new stuff. That is why there are so many new books all the time. The main problem is that Hollywood doesn't want to or know how to SELL new stories (I don't have the answers either). Marketing new stuff is a problem because familiarity is really what catches people's attention. If you don't have that, you have to rely either on star power or amazing visuals. The former comes and goes with each passing hour. The latter is hard because Avatar pretty much hit the peak in visuals and everyone complains about how much CGI is used, no matter how good it looks. So therefore they tend to go back to sequels, prequels, and remakes. The only exceptions have been animated, but even those have suffered lately. That's exactly why Disney just dropped announcements about a slew of sequels.

Agree on the ease of selling familiarity, disagree that “new” stuff can be created.

Mark Twain famously once said -

“There is no such thing as a new idea. It is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of mental kaleidoscope. We give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations. We keep on turning and making new combinations indefinitely; but they are the same old pieces of colored glass that have been in use through all the ages.”

This is not to take away anything from the creative process or the creators. But we have to acknowledge that there is only so many stories to tell, none of them original, only alterations of what came before so it seems new and fresh.

 

[doctornick]

Can someone direct me to the Apple box office forum so I can get started on ripping into them for making three $200m bombs?

Or maybe it’s like some of us have been saying: this isn’t just a Disney problem. It’s an industry issue that extends from filmmakers and producers down to the exhibitors.

There is no quick fix because the damage is intrinsic to this era of the movie business.

The only thing I would say though is that Disney seems to be particularly affected. IMHO I think a main reason is simply because Disney+ is so successful in terms of subscription rate and has a well known branding (especially with Disney and Pixar animation and Marvel) that consumers are just acutely aware that they can wait to watch those movies "for free" in just a few months.

Wakanda Forever was the most streamed movie last year but had a okay-ish box office. If there were no D+ streaming, I'd be willing to bet it would have a couple of hundreds of millions more in the box office (not that it did poorly necessarily). Avatar 2 bucked this trend but I think because it was viewed as a film that "had to be" viewed as part of a theater experience.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think writers are constantly coming up with new stuff. That is why there are so many new books all the time. The main problem is that Hollywood doesn't want to or know how to SELL new stories (I don't have the answers either). Marketing new stuff is a problem because familiarity is really what catches people's attention. If you don't have that, you have to rely either on star power or amazing visuals. The former comes and goes with each passing hour. The latter is hard because Avatar pretty much hit the peak in visuals and everyone complains about how much CGI is used, no matter how good it looks. So therefore they tend to go back to sequels, prequels, and remakes. The only exceptions have been animated, but even those have suffered lately. That's exactly why Disney just dropped announcements about a slew of sequels.

Most new books are awful. Even the good ones tend to recycle very familiar plots and characters.

Hollywood is fundamentally structured to rely on IP. At the same time, audiences crave the familiar. Comb through the box office charts for the last 20 years and find the original, non-IP hits. Once you get past John Wick and Avatar (which is ABSURDLY derivative of earlier films), you’re not going to find a great deal.

To paraphrase Pogo, we’ve met the enemy, and it is us.

 

[erasure fan1]

But what is worse is…someone…is digging in and won’t course correct. And it’s not Kennedy…she isn’t stupid…she knows it’s not really worked.

I agree, she's not stupid. But she is very stubborn and has a, I know I'm right complex and I'm going to prove I'm right no matter the outcome. The big issue with Iger, is he let all this drag on. Kennedy should have been given her "We thank Kathy for all her hard work and dedication. And we wish her all the best in her future endeavors." Speech after rise of Skywalker. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if she gets another extension. The two of them are equally at fault in my opinion. And now it seems with this wack a doodle approach to the films, Disney and Kennedy have separate agendas for the direction they go.

 

[doctornick]

What Lifetime movie features a petty decades-old disagreement between two family members based on a total misunderstanding ... that is only cleared up after the two are able to see things from the other's perspective ... leading to a full reconciliation at the conclusion? What Hallmark movie features the plucky go-getter kid that just wants everyone to be happy and work together and really hates it when their loved ones are engaged in a feud? What Lifetime movie features the meddling comic relief secondary family members that just have to be perpetually involved in the protagonist's daily struggle at the heart of the film? What Hallmark movie features a herd of animals that always seem to be getting into everything and causing subplots for the protagonists to solve? What Lifetime movie features a ballroom dance with a prince?

Outside of the dancing, everything you described could be applied to Ant-Man (as just one example) among Marvel films.

 

[Phroobar]

Outside of the dancing, everything you described could be applied to Ant-Man (as just one example) among Marvel films.

Or a Three's Company episode.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I love how everybody thinks movies should be made as if they ordered them off a menu.

Movies are art expressed by people, with a healthy dose of commercialism in most.

Sometimes it makes sense why they work, sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes it makes sense why they don't work, sometimes it doesn't.

Most of the time, big hits are the public buying into something, not something of great artistic merit. Popularity has never had anything to do with quality.

"Gee, all the other Marvel movies featured mostly men. This one has women. Yick." What a narrow lane in which to live.

"Gee, my favorite hero did something that wasn't perfect. The writers suck." No, you have no imagination or respect for the creators of the art. I understand you want your hero to be perfect, but life lesson: few are.

No, J.J. Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy are not morons. You're mad because the original 3 actors got old and/or died. That's not Disney's fault.

Original stories? Like Harry Potter? That's Star Wars in a castle.

Sequel? IP? "How boring." But new idea? "That doesn't fit the formula!"

Stop expecting to have your mind blown from something written and made by 20-30 year olds. That stops happening in your 40s because you've seen every idea already. They may blow the minds of some 20 year olds and younger for now.

I laugh out loud at TV shows now because nothing is a surprise and "this show did it first" all over the place.

Most things to watch are either passable or not. Very few are amazing. Even if you watch an entire series or movie and enjoy it, the ending is often stupid. This many years after Lost (which ended stupidly) they are still chasing it with stuff like La Brea. (I believe that's one I was laughing at recently.) Hey, this worked! Let's try it again a little differently! Lost led to so many bad shows it's not even funny.

There are so many high horses around here, I don't know how anyone can see a screen.

No training, but they know everything, and presume to tell Disney how to do things. You would all have failed just as badly last year with your "better" ideas, probably worse.

Rant over. I'm in a bad mood, can you tell? LOL. I'll write a show about it.

 

[Jedijax719]

@Tony the Tigger EXCELLENT post!!!

 

[Prince-1]

I love how everybody thinks movies should be made as if they ordered them off a menu.

Movies are art expressed by people, with a healthy dose of commercialism in most.

Sometimes it makes sense why they work, sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes it makes sense why they don't work, sometimes it doesn't.

Most of the time, big hits are the public buying into something, not something of great artistic merit. Popularity has never had anything to do with quality.

"Gee, all the other Marvel movies featured mostly men. This one has women. Yick." What a narrow lane in which to live.

"Gee, my favorite hero did something that wasn't perfect. The writers suck." No, you have no imagination or respect for the creators of the art. I understand you want your hero to be perfect, but life lesson: few are.

No, J.J. Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy are not morons. You're mad because the original 3 actors got old and/or died. That's not Disney's fault.

Original stories? Like Harry Potter? That's Star Wars in a castle.

Sequel? IP? "How boring." But new idea? "That doesn't fit the formula!"

Stop expecting to have your mind blown from something written and made by 20-30 year olds. That stops happening in your 40s because you've seen every idea already. They may blow the minds of 20 year olds and below for now.

I laugh out loud at TV shows now because nothing is a surprise and "this show did it first" all over the place.

Most things to watch are either passable or not. Very few are amazing. Even if you watch an entire series and enjoy it, the ending is often stupid. This many years after Lost (which ended stupidly) they are still chasing it with stuff like La Brea. (I believe that's one I was laughing at recently.) Hey, this worked! Let's try it again a little differently! Lost led to so many bad shows it's not even funny.

There are so many high horses around here, I don't know how anyone can see a screen.

No training, but they know everything, and presume to tell Disney how to do things. You would all have failed just as badly last year with your "better" ideas, probably worse.

Rant over. I'm in a bad mood, can you tell? LOL. I'll write a show about it.

But will it be a Lifetime movie type of show?

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Movies are art expressed by people, with a healthy dose of commercialism in most.

Recently leaked documents from Disney reveal that what Dosney is now doing is not art.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

But will it be a Lifetime movie type of show?

Hallmark.

Nah. MTV.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Apparently Moana 2 is coming to theaters later this year.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Man, this is thin.

Women. You’re mad it stars women. That’s very transparently what the “Lifetime” dig meant.

Black Widow didn't feel like a Lifetime movie. The Hawkeye TV show didn't feel like something you'd see on the Hallmark channel (despite being a Christmas show). WandaVision didn't either. It's not the genitals of the main characters that made The Marvels a bad film.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Black Widow didn't feel like a Lifetime movie. The Hawkeye TV show didn't feel like something you'd see on the Hallmark channel (despite being a Christmas show). WandaVision didn't either. It's not the genitals of the main characters that made The Marvels a bad film.

Was it too much fun?

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Was it too much fun?

That's not how I would have described it.