Discussion about how paid Fastpass will work

["El Gran Magnifico"]

The whiplash will be is if the system enables people to actually shorten their stay, and discourage longer stays.

Imagine the scenario where the parks get to the point where "Dad" decides.... no way I'm doing the parks without line skip.
Then "Dad" says.. "This thing cost me $1000 a day... I'll do it for 2-3 days, but no more then that.. that's crazy"
Then "Dad" realizes... if this lets us do all the rides quickly, won't I get through everything we want to ride in the park in 1 day? Why do I need to be there for a week?

Now Dad tells the family... "We're gonna do WDW, but only for 3 days... the line skip will get us to all the attractions we want". And all the other forms of entertainment that used to be diversions from the big rides will suffer because they can't all have immediate access to line skip. So the people hooked on line-skip will be more inclined to skip those attractions entirely or only do them if they need a filler.

So now Dad blows his wallet out by buying 2 days full of line-skips, but leaves after 3 days, instead of maybe staying longer. And Disney loses out on the longer stay... or maybe Disney sees it as "I ringed him dry even quicker, and now I got faster turnover"

If Disney enables a system where people can basically do a full day of DPA - those people are never going to want to be in the park without it. That's a double edged sword for Disney and their pricing strategy.

Yes and No. I don't necessarily disagree with your main point of possibly having a negative effect on duration of stay. But that's assuming that - that family is only interested in going to parks and riding rides.

We don't yet know how this is all going to work and I'm going to speculate that DPA is not going to have a park-hopper component (If it does it will make it even more expensive). So to get the whole Disney experience from DPA you'd be looking at 4 days. Then you have resort time, alternatives like Springs and/or Water Parks, Boardwalk etc.

There's another factor you're missing that supports your example. If someone is laying out the money for DPA, their main focus will be rides. They'll want to get on as many of them as they possibly can within the window they are at the parks. They won't be concerning themselves with spending an hour and a half doing a TS meal, a character meal, or wandering around gift shops. I would think that the average spend for that family in the parks for F&B and merch would be less while utilizing DPA than it would be without. And I think some (probably a lot) will sacrifice some of their meal and merch budget to offset some of the DPA cost. And yes, it could also turn what used to be a 7 day vacation into a 5 day one.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes and No. I don't necessarily disagree with your main point of possibly having a negative effect on duration of stay. But that's assuming that - that family is only interested in going to parks and riding rides.

that’s the under current…, it creates pulls to just focus on what you can do quickly and being a park commando trying to “get as much in in as short of time as possible”. Things that you can’t just do … you’re being trained to want to skip.

i’m still of the belief tho that this kinda of paid access will be a small minority of what it can be used. If its as widespread as FP was…. Hold onto your butts

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Nobody has a clue…and that’s a fact, not a guess.

we’ll have to wait and see

 

[Waters Back Side]

Despite me still not believing DPA is coming to WDW until I see it, will DPA actually offer that as a package? I know I said that's the only way I'd accept something like this coming to Disney, but if DPA actually does offer a package where you can actually bundle numerous rides (and multiple headliners) to be crammed in one day in a park, then ***depending*** on the price, I could buy into this. Of course it would have to be on another trip because the one coming up is a 7 nighter.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Despite me still not believing DPA is coming to WDW until I see it, will DPA actually offer that as a package? I know I said that's the only way I'd accept something like this coming to Disney, but if DPA actually does offer a package where you can actually bundle numerous rides (and multiple headliners) to be crammed in one day in a park, then ***depending*** on the price, I could buy into this. Of course it would have to be on another trip because the one coming up is a 7 nighter.

Who knows?

its possible.

 

[CuteAsMinnie]

Nobody has a clue…and that’s a fact, not a guess.

we’ll have to wait and see

Is there a way this can be quoted as a footnote to every single post regarding FP????

 

[Hawg G]

If you ask people currently waiting for tomorrow's opportunity to book their RotR boarding group, what they would pay for their family of 4 to skip all of that, and just pay, I can see so many people saying, "For this one ride, to guarantee it. Not have to wake up early, or stress"...they'll slap down $100 so fast. It falls into the category of, "I've already spent thousands, I am not going to let this last $100 get in my way." How many times have people already asked for the option to pay, "Whatever, just tell me what the number is and let me decide?"

Now, you've secured the ride for your benefit...are you really going to look at your daughter's face and tell her she can't ride Frozen because you know she'll get cranky with the wait, or you will, and you don't want to fork over another $50?

Arguing this from the perspective of a general idea, will mean nothing when it goes up against the specific, emotionality of needing to have a happy vacation and fighting against the exhaustion. Which requires people doing the things they want most, and avoiding Mr. Crankypants that will make everyone miserable when the line ticks over 30-45 minutes. This is about Star Wars, Frozen, FOP and SDMT, not <insert random attraction>. It will be about Guardians and Tron. There's a thread over on the DIS where someone realized how they are part of the problem. They had their epiphany when they realized they were packing trash bags in their suitcase for their stay at a Deluxe WDW hotel they were paying hundreds of dollars for. They know what they are doing is insane, and yet they continue. Doing the insane is easier and more emotionally satisfying than saying no.

One of the things that the pandemic has proven is the "convenience" economy is here to stay. Whatever we thought was rational and expected before, is gone. Now everyone's paying for grocery store pickups and fast food deliveries, so why not for the convenience and even more tangible benefit of the line skip, on your kid's dream, see how great a parent, but I don't have the tolerance for queuing I am, vacation? Combine that with everyone's YOLO mentality, which was also greatly refined over the last 18 months, and we're facing a whole lot of crazy options that previously would have been filed under, "people aren't that stupid about money, are they?"

Yup, with tickets so expensive, and long lines on everything, I’d pay $50 a day in a heartbeat. Hell, Universal charges hundreds, and their lines aren’t as long as Disney. Now, Universals is essentially like a Disney VIP, but still, $50 to get old style Fastpass back would sell out instantly every day.

 

[Weather_Lady]

There's another factor you're missing that supports your example. If someone is laying out the money for DPA, their main focus will be rides. They'll want to get on as many of them as they possibly can within the window they are at the parks. They won't be concerning themselves with spending an hour and a half doing a TS meal, a character meal, or wandering around gift shops. I would think that the average spend for that family in the parks for F&B and merch would be less while utilizing DPA than it would be without. And I think some (probably a lot) will sacrifice some of their meal and merch budget to offset some of the DPA cost. And yes, it could also turn what used to be a 7 day vacation into a 5 day one.

Excellent point -- and that's pretty much how my family plans and budgets for vacations. Disney doesn't get us to keep spending more, because if we decide to pay more for one thing (or if the cost of something goes up prohibitively), then we just cut or replace things to make up for it. Our overall goal is to enjoy all the best rides with the shortest wait times, in the most efficient way possible. Everything else -- live entertainment, food, hotel, transportation -- contributes to the quality of our trip, but our choices about those things all circle back to the question of, "will this hotel/restaurant/show/conveyance be convenient to, or improve our speedy access to, the 'rides' we came here to experience?"

It will be interesting to see how whatever fresh horror paid FP system Disney rolls out changes the equation for my family. If it's not something we can comfortably afford, and if not having it would result in inevitably long waits, there'd really be no reason for us to go back (at least, not until we have grandchildren to take).

 

[UNCgolf]

I just looked up some low crowd days on TP's historical calendar for Universal...
Including a day I was there in February 2019... Only 6 Express Pass attractions had average standby waits of over 15 minutes. (that's average, so there were times of day when they were higher, but in the morning and evening, they were walk-on). On 2 attractions over 25 minutes.
Only attractions that were over 15 minutes:
Fearfall (18 minutes)
ET (25 minutes)
Gringotts (25 minutes)
Rip Ride Rocket (21 minutes)
Only rides over 25 minutes:
Despicable Me (33 minutes, but I did it as a walk-on in the morning)
Hippogriff (37 minutes)

So yes, on this fairly low crowd day -- The Express Pass is much more expensive than Disney's DPA, as it really would give very little value.
I mean, if I give a choice between a 25 minute line for Gringotts, or pay $15 -- I'd just take the 25 minute line.

On busy days when lines are long and Express Pass would be valuable, as you know, they charge over $300 for it. So even if you used it for 10 rides, that's still $30 per ride -- Much more expensive than Disney's Paris system.

You're forgetting that the Express Pass can be used as many times as you want, though. With the DLP version, if you wanted to ride Space Mountain twice, you have to pay twice. With UEP, you could get on the same ride 5 times in a row if you felt like it. I know they also have a version that's not unlimited, but it's not much cheaper than the unlimited version (I think only $20-30 most days) so I'm not sure why you'd buy it unless the unlimited was sold out.

The only time I've had Express Pass was from staying at the Royal Pacific, so I didn't have to pay separately (and it was the unlimited version). That's an incredibly good deal, though -- the Royal Pacific is a nicer hotel than just about anything on Disney property and costs significantly less even with the Express Pass included.

I was there in February 2018 and saved a ton of time with the Express Pass; several headliner rides had standby waits well over an hour. We rode the Jurassic Park ride 3 or 4 times one day.

 

[KrzyKtty]

You're forgetting that the Express Pass can be used as many times as you want, though. With the DLP version, if you wanted to ride Space Mountain twice, you have to pay twice. With UEP, you could get on the same ride 5 times in a row if you felt like it. I know they also have a version that's not unlimited, but it's not much cheaper than the unlimited version (I think only $20-30 most days) so I'm not sure why you'd buy it unless the unlimited was sold out.

The only time I've had Express Pass was from staying at the Royal Pacific, so I didn't have to pay separately (and it was the unlimited version). That's an incredibly good deal, though -- the Royal Pacific is a nicer hotel than just about anything on Disney property and costs significantly less even with the Express Pass included.

I was there in February 2018 and saved a ton of time with the Express Pass; several headliner rides had standby waits well over an hour. We rode the Jurassic Park ride 3 or 4 times one day.

Actually with Express pass you only get to use it once. It's only what the more expensive Express pass unlimited that you get to use it multiple times.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yup, with tickets so expensive, and long lines on everything, I’d pay $50 a day in a heartbeat. Hell, Universal charges hundreds, and their lines aren’t as long as Disney. Now, Universals is essentially like a Disney VIP, but still, $50 to get old style Fastpass back would sell out instantly every day.

…be strong. Don’t throw out your arm pulling the CC out

Actually with Express pass you only get to use it once. It's only what the more expensive Express pass unlimited that you get to use it multiple times.

Unlimited is what’s included in the 3 hotels

 

[UNCgolf]

Actually with Express pass you only get to use it once. It's only what the more expensive Express pass unlimited that you get to use it multiple times.

I said that -- look at the last sentence in my first paragraph. The deluxe hotels all get unlimited included, and the price for unlimited isn't much higher than the standard version. It's not like you have to pay a $100 premium to get unlimited even if you're just buying it.

 

[havoc315]

You're forgetting that the Express Pass can be used as many times as you want, though. With the DLP version, if you wanted to ride Space Mountain twice, you have to pay twice. With UEP, you could get on the same ride 5 times in a row if you felt like it. I know they also have a version that's not unlimited, but it's not much cheaper than the unlimited version (I think only $20-30 most days) so I'm not sure why you'd buy it unless the unlimited was sold out.

The only time I've had Express Pass was from staying at the Royal Pacific, so I didn't have to pay separately (and it was the unlimited version). That's an incredibly good deal, though -- the Royal Pacific is a nicer hotel than just about anything on Disney property and costs significantly less even with the Express Pass included.

I was there in February 2018 and saved a ton of time with the Express Pass; several headliner rides had standby waits well over an hour. We rode the Jurassic Park ride 3 or 4 times one day.

Staying at the Royal Pacific -- it's the unlimited express pass. Yes, it's an incredible deal when it's included in the hotel room, especially if you have 4 people getting it. (like free dining at WDW).

I've ridden Jurassic Park 3 times in a day at Universal -- on the standby line. I've been to Universal 3 times... Jurassic Park was a walk-on, 2 out of the 3 times. (Longest line was 20 minutes on the non-walk-on day).

There have been trips where the UEP saved time -- Saved time on a holiday weekend, when it would have costed $300 per person.

But other occasions -- it was a rather minor benefit. Unlike WDW, Universal often has a lot of walk-on attractions. The longest standby line I ever encountered, apart from a ride breakdown, was 50 minutes for Gringotts. (I understand the Motorbike coaster gets long lines, but it wasn't open as of my last trip there).

My last 3 day trip, I had the UEP, but I never used it more than twice per day. Most of the day, most of the attractions, were essentially walk-on. There was 1 ride breakdown at the Simpsons.... it was running at VERY limited capacity. So sadly, even with the UEP, I still waited 40 minutes. (went right to the merge, and waited 40 minutes from there are there was a very slow trickle of people).

Point is, I don't think on any trip, I think it always ended up being more costly than $20 per use -- if I had paid separately for it.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I’m tired of the old thread constantly veering off into free vs paid Fastpass. Look, the industry standard is a paid option, we all knew Disney would go there eventually. This thread is going to assume it’s happening, and is not, I repeat not, to discuss if it’s a good idea to go from free to paid. I instead want to discuss why I think DLP’s premier access at WDW will be a disaster. To start the conversation with like minded individuals I will repost my thoughts that previously go hurried in that thread:


I can’t read this thread meltdown in its entirety, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before, I am not going to debate the merits of free vs paid FP. I instead want to focus on why I think premier access is not going to work at WDW, mainly by comparing it to other North American Theme Park offerings.

Ok first let’s guess on the price, 8 euros is roughly $10 based on the exchange rate. While WDW is likely to be more expensive I’m going to give PA the benefit of the doubt and make the starting price $9.99 my gut feeling is the top rate will be double that, $19.99. Let’s average that price at $15 for simplicity.

Ok what does that buy you? It buys you essentially a Fastpass, a ticket to come back later during a time you can’t pick (potentially hours later) during a set interval and wait in potentially a 30 min line once (assuming it’s used as much as FP now.)

The only park that offers something similar is Six Flags with their Flash Pass. The base model grants you a device where you can select a line and have your virtual queue wait for you 75% whatever the wait is for the ride (upcharges reduce that time by 50% and 90%) at your time you will have a <15 min wait at the ride. The price for the bronze flash pass at the chains flagship park (Magic Mountain) starts at $60, and Sat July 10 is $75 which I assume is the ceiling price (Saturday in the summer.). Obviously $75>$15, but I think even the most inept guest is likely to ride >6 rides in a day thus not only do you have to wait less time in a virtual queue you get a “discount rate on the whole day.”

Sea World/Busch Gardens has a punch card system that allows you a ride on every ride that offers quick queue (anytime you want) for a similar rate.

Cedar Fair and Universal offer a pass that allows you to use the Fastlane/Express pass queue unlimited times during the day. Cedar Fair’s flagship park Cedar Point charges $101-$169 for this privilege. To get to $15 a ride you have to ride 12 rides, very likely for an average guest. Universals 2 park unlimited ranges from $101-$329. 22 rides to get to $15 a ride, doable but only for warriors but even if you don’t hit all the rides the flexibility and unlimited access has tangible benefits.

As you can see, Disney’s Premier Access is more expensive, more restrictive, less user friendly, and feels more like a money grab (constantly having to purchase this anytime you want to use it for each ride) then any system in the United States and it has the additional handicap of being introduced to replace something that was free.

This is going to seriously hurt the brand, perhaps permanently and be widely unpopular and prone to user error; in short a disaster.

They should have brought Maxpass East or mimicked one of their competitors, I don’t think Americans are going to accept this.

REMEMBER IN THIS THREAD WE ASSUME FREE FASTPASS IS NOT COMING BACK AND WILL NOT DEBATE THE MERITS OF THAT DECISION. This is to discuss how paid Fastpass will appear at WDW.

I am not clear on if WDW will still have stand by lines? I heard they will but can elect to close the standby line if it gets too long and give you a free return time pass?

Historically, Universal Orlando always sold express passes but always had a free standby option.

I do not care if WDW sells FastPasses as long as there is still a free option.

As for the pricing, I read that Universal Orlando has an unlimited express pass for $99, "Skip the regular lines at most popular rides and attractions as many times as you want." If I remember correctly, when a brand new ride opened, it was NOT part of the express pass.

As for WDW, I am I would hope they have options to buy a FastPass for individual attractions AND pay one price for an unlimited pass.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

As for WDW, I am I would hope they have options to buy a FastPass for individual attractions AND pay one price for an unlimited pass.

Not to go down the hole here…

but it occurs that with that steep (and it is) upcharge…

it could make disney parks more of a “couple day” places and feed right into the new Comcast development

the entire wells/Eisner era was designed to not do that…but keep you there. And they built the majority of the compound.

its very ironic

 

[Disstevefan1]

Not to go down the hole here…

but it occurs that with that steep (and it is) upcharge…

it could make disney parks more of a “couple day” places and feed right into the new Comcast development

the entire wells/Eisner era was designed to not do that…but keep you there. And they built the majority of the compound.

its very ironic

With 4 parks plus a water park (is WDW down to one water park now?) I don’t think WDW will ever be a couple day destination; even if you could pay your way on to every attraction, since we all know you will be not be paying for instant access, you will be paying for the same old FastPass with a return time to A QUEUE of other “elite FastPassers”. Same stuff, just now for a price.

If they do away with standby completely, that would be an interesting $ocial experiment

 

[rct247]

Best case scenario is that it's just a pay version of Fastpass, but we all know it'll be much more complicated than that because you have to factor in demand, ride capacities, resort price levels, club 33, APs, Genie, VIP tour guides, and special offers. That will just complicated the privileges and the rules.

What I'm curious about is how they will handle the situations in ride reliability and efficiency. If I'm paying for Fastpass, I better not find myself in a Fastpass line that stretches to Timbuktu just because a brief stop. Do I get refunded, do I get another FP, do I just suck it up because it states in the fine print that Fastpass doesn't actually guaretee that it will be a fast line or minimal wait or that you'll get to even ride for that matter.

I don't envy the decision makers here. Society has gotten impatient and doesn't want to stand in lines, prices are more expensive, demand and crowds are high, guest expectations are high, guests are less civil, guests are not as inclined to settle for shows and A ticket experiences, and park ride capacities haven't really increased in recent years.

Rider capacity and reliability need to increase. More experiences namely rides need to be reopened and built. Guests need to come with more realistic expectations, prices will need to be high to keep capacity lower to more enjoyable levels, and paid Fastpass needs to be simply left to VIP tours.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

With 4 parks plus a water park (is WDW down to one water park now?) I don’t think WDW will ever be a couple day destination; even if you could pay your way on to every attraction, since we all know you will be not be paying for instant access, you will be paying for the same old FastPass with a return time to A QUEUE of other “elite FastPassers”. Same stuff, just now for a price.

If they do away with standby completely, that would be an interesting $ocial experiment

If you’re charging people pay as you go after whacking them at the gate…a lot of that stuff isn’t “must do”…especially if it isn’t first time…which is the case for most on many days if not all.

and that’s the other thing…nostalgia wanes under financial duress.

they may end up renaming studios “nakatomi plaza”

 

[Disstevefan1]

If you’re charging people pay as you go after whacking them at the gate…a lot of that stuff isn’t “must do”…especially if it isn’t first time…which is the case for most on many days if not all.

and that’s the other thing…nostalgia wanes under financial duress.

they may end up renaming studios “nakatomi plaza”

It will be interesting to see what happens. If WDW sees profits fall off (notice I said profits not attendance) they will simply change the program as needed to fix the profit problem.

The Disney Parks are invincible.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It will be interesting to see what happens. If WDW sees profits fall off (notice I said profits not attendance) they will simply change the program as needed to fix the profit problem.

The Disney Parks are invincible.

That is a slide on their presentation to stock brokers…

…I usually tend to agree. Customers are weak and not nearly as smart as they believe they are.