News Crossroads Plaza Faces Demoliton

[jakeman]

Well, the article mentions those plans, which qualifies as being “in the public sector.” And noodles and Company did hire a firm to put forward an alternate plan, which the FDOT dismissed. This would have happened to any plan that was put forward, and I suspect you would have taken the FDOT’s word.

You seem to feel a collection of small franchise owners will have the same organization and access to the press as Disney and the state government and can launch a major PR campaign around an alternate plan. That strikes me as an odd belief.

The implication of the article is pretty strong; Disney and the FDOT developed a plan and are determined to implement it.

So I'm going to tap out here.

You are the one making the claim that FDOT has chosen a suboptimal plan because of collusion with TWDC.

It's a simple matter of providing evidence of a plan that addresses the traffic in that area as well or better than the FDOT plan.

You've provided no evidence of this even when asked, yet persist with your theory. Until you do, I'm withdrawing from this conversation as it has become circular.

 

[s8film40]

So I'm going to tap out here.

You are the one making the claim that FDOT has chosen a suboptimal plan because of collusion with TWDC.

It's a simple matter of providing evidence of a plan that addresses the traffic in that area as well or better than the FDOT plan.

You've provided no evidence of this even when asked, yet persist with your theory. Until you do, I'm withdrawing from this conversation as it has become circular.

Haha, it's become circular because you made it circular. You've provided no evidence that the FDOT plan is the best. There's always multiple ways to do something and many factors involved. The reality is even if it's a slightly better plan is it worth eliminating those businesses? If the ramps can be configured in that "optimal" way on that side of 535, why can't the same be done on the other side? Where is your "evidence" that the Crossroads side of 535 is the "optimal" side.

 

[donsullivan]

Wow, the Ignore button sure has gotten a workout in this thread. The conspiracy theorists who are obsessed with the 'Disney is evil' agenda have over-run yet another thread with blind hatred/negativity toward Disney while ignoring and denying clear facts.

For those who asked, yes all FDOT project data is public record and available on their website. They even have an iPhone and Android app that will provide you with all of the traffic flow data for the traffic studies on these routes so you can see how much traffic is moving through the intersections which is what's driving this project.

While this project is taking place on land 'previously' owned by Disney (sold in 2005) and is adjacent to the Disney property it is NOT being done to benefit Disney directly. It is being done to deal with a MAJOR traffic problem at this intersection that must be dealt with for the greater community well beyond Disney. They have been working for many years with all of the stakeholder parties to come up with the best option that balances all of the requirements of the project. I've personally seen at least 3 different versions of the plan over the years and only once the current version came into being in late 2016 did the total plan seem to work- vs just parts of it being improved by other plans. People need to let go of their bias that the only thing that counts in this area is the entrance to Hotel Plaza Blvd. This project is trying to fix the entire intersection in both directions and for all parties.

The beneficiaries of fixing this traffic mess extend well beyond a few Crossroads merchants and Disney. There are thousands of homes that have been built both north of Disney and south on 535 and people flow through this intersection on their way to and from work each day. The steadily increasing volume of traffic creates major congestion and safety issues on both the surface roads and I4. It is well past time to fix it for all the constituent parties. This is not about a tourist area project, this is a simple road project to deal with a major area of congestion and the only fix they've found that solves the whole problem is the one we're seeing now that was actually developed and approved in 2016.

These sorts of things have been happening all over the country forever where communities choose that properties need to be taken for roadway projects for the greater good of the community. This is nothing more than that and to suggest Disney is trying to remove competitors near their property is utterly ridiculous.

 

[jakeman]

Haha, it's become circular because you made it circular. You've provided no evidence that the FDOT plan is the best. There's always multiple ways to do something and many factors involved. The reality is even if it's a slightly better plan is it worth eliminating those businesses? If the ramps can be configured in that "optimal" way on that side of 535, why can't the same be done on the other side? Where is your "evidence" that the Crossroads side of 535 is the "optimal" side.

/sigh

FDOT has put forth a proposal they say is best. You and others, including the business at Crossroads, are saying it's not the best from a traffic standpoint. The burden of proof is on you and others. Not FDOT.

I'm not a traffic engineer or whatever they are call. I'm not qualified to assess or question anyone's evaluation of a plan, accepted or alternative. I would trust that the FDOT is. If they are corrupt and colluding with a corporation, as postulated here, I would also trust that another firm with equitable expertise in trafficology, or whatever it's called, would provide contrary evidence to the public.

For each point, no evidence to the contrary has been provided thus far. Again, and for the last time, I'm withdrawing from the conversation, because I do not have the expertise, the access, or the desire to prove your hypothesis for you.

 

[s8film40]

/sigh

FDOT has put forth a proposal they say is best. You and others, including the business at Crossroads, are saying it's not the best from a traffic standpoint. The burden of proof is on you and others. Not FDOT.

I'm not a traffic engineer or whatever they are call. I'm not qualified to assess or question anyone's evaluation of a plan, accepted or alternative. I would trust that the FDOT is. If they are corrupt and colluding with a corporation, as postulated here, I would also trust that another firm with equitable expertise in trafficology, or whatever it's called, would provide contrary evidence to the public.

For each point, no evidence to the contrary has been provided thus far. Again, and for the last time, I'm withdrawing from the conversation, because I do not have the expertise, the access, or the desire to prove your hypothesis for you.

This is a discussion forum there is no “burden of proof”, that just makes you sound crazy. When this goes to court the burden of proof will be on FDOT. Your opinion is they made the best choice given the circumstances, I get that. My opinion is this plan isn’t worth losing an entire shopping center. I don’t see any real benefit here. The traffic there on 535 isn’t really that bad, the bigger problem is I-4 which FDOT can’t seem to manage that very well, perhaps they need to focus more on that and less on all these loop ramps everywhere. This doesn’t mean I think Disney is evil and trying to undercut their neighboring businesses. I think they’re simply looking out for their own interests and are happy with a plan where the other guys land is being taken and not theirs. I think FDOT knows they can’t take Disney’s land and never even considered doing this another way.

 

[Casper Gutman]

This is a discussion forum there is no “burden of proof”, that just makes you sound crazy. When this goes to court the burden of proof will be on FDOT. Your opinion is they made the best choice given the circumstances, I get that. My opinion is this plan isn’t worth losing an entire shopping center. I don’t see any real benefit here. The traffic there on 535 isn’t really that bad, the bigger problem is I-4 which FDOT can’t seem to manage that very well, perhaps they need to focus more on that and less on all these loop ramps everywhere. This doesn’t mean I think Disney is evil and trying to undercut their neighboring businesses. I think they’re simply looking out for their own interests and are happy with a plan where the other guys land is being taken and not theirs. I think FDOT knows they can’t take Disney’s land and never even considered doing this another way.

Two points none of the FDOT fans want to address:

1) why have the FDOT and Disney been meeting regularly for four years to plan this? Were other stakeholders brought in at that time? The article implies they were not.

2) What of Disney’s long, well-documented history of manipulating the government to its advantage? The Disney Springs garages are a recent example. Why would this time be different?

I love the suggestion that if the government and big business were cooperating inappropriately, surely some heroic experts would swing in, reveal it, the local press would cheer, and the villains would admit their malfeasance. I mean... wow.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Aren’t they made public knowledge? Over here any large road program - especially one that would CP property - has to show all alternatives and demonstrate why the chosen one is best.

Florida requires lots of records to be made available to the public. Alternatives most definitely should be available if not posted somewhere on the FDOT website.

2) What of Disney’s long, well-documented history of manipulating the government to its advantage? The Disney Springs garages are a recent example. Why would this time be different?

The garages were built by Reedy Creek Improvement District. You’re not helping your case. You’d probably have a better case just arguing that the changes likely won’t resolve the traffic issues.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Florida requires lots of records to be made available to the public. Alternatives most definitely should be available if not posted somewhere on the FDOT website.


The garages were built by Reedy Creek Improvement District. You’re not helping your case. You’d probably have a better case just arguing that the changes likely won’t resolve the traffic issues.

Reedy Creek is a unique entity (all governing members are chosen by the corporation) created by the state legislature at Disney’s urging when the government was desperate to have WDW built. Its pretty much a pocket government that gives Disney huge advantages over the competition and allows them to switch between acting as a private or public entity as it suits them. It is a key aspect of the way Disney receives massive special consideration from the state and local government.

Using Reedy Creek, WDW built the garages using tax-free bonds and paid no sales tax on materials. Competitors can’t do that. (Uni, which is another very big dog, did receive financial help with pedestrian bridges, which has also upset some who are wary of government/ corporate coziness. They built their garages on their own.)

Check out Foglesong. It’s quite intersesting.

 

[s8film40]

The garages were built by Reedy Creek Improvement District. You’re not helping your case. You’d probably have a better case just arguing that the changes likely won’t resolve the traffic issues.

The ramps to the garages needed to be approved by FDOT. It shows that Disney has a history of working with FDOT and getting their way.

Again this doesn’t make Disney evil or anything it’s just common sense that the state is going to take in consideration the needs of a large tourist attractor. It’s not a streatch at all to think they’ll also side with Disney rather than some smaller businesses to help one of the largest businesses in the state.

I mean come on people, just look at the proposed plan, it shows the shopping center being demolished just to make a loop road that just happens to go straight into Disney’s entrance. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or traffic engineer to see what’s going on here.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Its pretty much a pocket government that gives Disney huge advantages over the competition and allows them to switch between acting as a private or public entity as it suits them. It is a key aspect of the way Disney receives massive special consideration from the state and local government.

When DCL launched regulation mandated lifeboats be orange in color. That didn't work for Disney.....they wanted them yellow...to match the aesthetics of the ships........Long story short.....the lifeboats are yellow.

 

[donsullivan]

When DCL launched regulation mandated lifeboats be orange in color. That didn't work for Disney.....they wanted them yellow...to match the aesthetics of the ships........Long story short.....the lifeboats are yellow.

What does Disney petitioning the International Maritime Organization to approve the yellow lifeboats (which they did) to achieve their design aesthetic for the ships have to do with a traffic intersection redesign?

And for clarity, the language in the IMO Life-Saving Appliance code for lifeboat colors is "be of international or vivid reddish orange, or a comparably highly visible colour". The lanugage in the IMO statute gets refreshed every decade or so but still says essentially the same but now adds clarification to prevent use of gray or white boats. The bottom line was visibility at a minimum distance.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

What does Disney petitioning the International Maritime Organization to approve the yellow lifeboats (which they did) to achieve their design aesthetic for the ships have to do with a traffic intersection redesign?

And for clarity, the language in the IMO Life-Saving Appliance code for lifeboat colors is "be of international or vivid reddish orange, or a comparably highly visible colour"

You mad bro?

My post was in response to Disney lobbying for special consideration as mentioned in a previous post. You can go back to eating your Cheerios now.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Totally get what your saying here. In its hey day it was a nice place to go and eat and get some groceries. Kinda has lost it's luster now. I think I would rather have the new road system because of how bad it can get in that area. Really should have been done years and years ago.

While they always had chains there, there used to be some really fun local places too. Jungle Jim's was a personal favorite.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Reedy Creek is a unique entity (all governing members are chosen by the corporation) created by the state legislature at Disney’s urging when the government was desperate to have WDW built. Its pretty much a pocket government that gives Disney huge advantages over the competition and allows them to switch between acting as a private or public entity as it suits them. It is a key aspect of the way Disney receives massive special consideration from the state and local government.

Using Reedy Creek, WDW built the garages using tax-free bonds and paid no sales tax on materials. Competitors can’t do that. (Uni, which is another very big dog, did receive financial help with pedestrian bridges, which has also upset some who are wary of government/ corporate coziness. They built their garages on their own.)

Check out Foglesong. It’s quite intersesting.

I’m well aware of how the Improvement District is setup and even the book you keep referencing. That doesn’t change you’re attempt to characterize the garages as collusion with an outside agency. You also now seem to be mischaracterizing the recent pedestrian bridge at Universal Orlando Resort, which was paid for with taxes specifically levied at the Resort.

The ramps to the garages needed to be approved by FDOT. It shows that Disney has a history of working with FDOT and getting their way.

Again this doesn’t make Disney evil or anything it’s just common sense that the state is going to take in consideration the needs of a large tourist attractor. It’s not a streatch at all to think they’ll also side with Disney rather than some smaller businesses to help one of the largest businesses in the state.

I mean come on people, just look at the proposed plan, it shows the shopping center being demolished just to make a loop road that just happens to go straight into Disney’s entrance. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or traffic engineer to see what’s going on here.

A small business fronting a state highway like FL 535 also needs to have access approved by FDOT. Every driveway along FL 535 and every other state highway is an example of entities “working with FDOT and getting their way.” As long as you pay and follow the Greenbook you are going to get your way. Even big projects like highway off ramps will be built for other entities like Universal Orlando Resort.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I’m well aware of how the Improvement District is setup and even the book you keep referencing. That doesn’t change you’re attempt to characterize the garages as collusion with an outside agency. You also now seem to be mischaracterizing the recent pedestrian bridge at Universal Orlando Resort, which was paid for with taxes specifically levied at the Resort.

I have never used the word “collusion,” because it is a loaded term.

This discussion began because several posters attempted to characterize as absurd the notion that WDW receives special consideration from state and local government and, indeed, works to exert influence over those organizations. I would contend the founding and continuing action of the Reedy Creek Improvement District is a strong example of the special consideration Disney receives and its unusual relation to the government. I would cite the garage construction as an example of the exercising of this special relationship.

As to Uni’s bridge, I defer to you on that issue. I am not overly familiar with the particulars and made a mistake in mentioning it in passing.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I have never used the word “collusion,” because it is a loaded term.

This discussion began because several posters attempted to characterize as absurd the notion that WDW receives special consideration from state and local government and, indeed, works to exert influence over those organizations. I would contend the founding and continuing action of the Reedy Creek Improvement District is a strong example of the special consideration Disney receives and its unusual relation to the government. I would cite the garage construction as an example of the exercising of this special relationship.

As to Uni’s bridge, I defer to you on that issue. I am not overly familiar with the particulars and made a mistake in mentioning it in passing.

You didn’t use the term but you keep trying to use the garages as an example that isn’t equal. Everyone is aware that Reedy Creek Improvement District is not fully independent of Disney but you’re tryin to apply that unique circumstance to all other governing agencies.

 

[s8film40]

A small business fronting a state highway like FL 535 also needs to have access approved by FDOT. Every driveway along FL 535 and every other state highway is an example of entities “working with FDOT and getting their way.” As long as you pay and follow the Greenbook you are going to get your way. Even big projects like highway off ramps will be built for other entities like Universal Orlando Resort.

Building a slip ramp off an interstate that leads directly to a Disney garage is a very different thing. I totally agree that was the best way to go for the garage. To say that Disney doesn’t have substantial pull in these sort of things would just be ridiculous.

Here’s a little sample of some of the back end work to get things done for Disney. It’s definitely not the sort of thing you would see being done for a small sandwich shop franchisee.
http://www.floridatrend.com/public/userfiles/news/pdfs/Dept-of-Transp-I-4-OffRampReedyCreek.pdf

 

[Casper Gutman]

You didn’t use the term but you keep trying to use the garages as an example that isn’t equal. Everyone is aware that Reedy Creek Improvement District is not fully independent of Disney but you’re tryin to apply that unique circumstance to all other governing agencies.

OK, I genuinely think I am being unclear and you are misunderstanding. I am NOT saying Disney manipulates other governments the way it manipulates Reedy Creek - the relationship between Disney and Reedy Creek is NOT analogous to that between Disney and the FDOT.

I am saying the formation and continued existence of Reedy Creek is an example of how Disney receives special consideration from state and local governments. The legislature essentially granted Disney a pocket government and continues to allow its existence long after its initial justification has disappeared. I am also saying that Reedy Creek is one of the primary tools Disney uses to maneuver around government regulations that effect competitors and ensure it achieves the particular ends it desires.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Building a slip ramp off an interstate that leads directly to a Disney garage is a very different thing. I totally agree that was the best way to go for the garage. To say that Disney doesn’t have substantial pull in these sort of things would just be ridiculous.

Here’s a little sample of some of the back end work to get things done for Disney. It’s definitely not the sort of thing you would see being done for a small sandwich shop franchisee.
http://www.floridatrend.com/public/userfiles/news/pdfs/Dept-of-Transp-I-4-OffRampReedyCreek.pdf

Yes, off ramps are bigger than curb cuts but bigger developments are, by their nature, bigger and less common. The ramps at Universal Studios Florida were reconfigured at Universal’s request for the expansion into Universal Studios Escape. The Disney Springs ramp involved the federal government because it involved a federally signed Interstate highway.

OK, I genuinely think I am being unclear and you are misunderstanding. I am NOT saying Disney manipulates other governments the way it manipulates Reedy Creek - the relationship between Disney and Reedy Creek is NOT analogous to that between Disney and the FDOT.

I am saying the formation and continued existence of Reedy Creek is an example of how Disney receives special consideration from state and local governments. The legislature essentially granted Disney a pocket government and continues to allow its existence long after its initial justification has disappeared. I am also saying that Reedy Creek is one of the primary tools Disney uses to maneuver around government regulations that effect competitors and ensure it achieves the particular ends it desires.

The Distict isn’t something that gets continually renewed. It would have to be dissolved by the state. Disney themselves have done a good job at getting bloated and killing advantages they once had over their competition.

 

[s8film40]

Yes, off ramps are bigger than curb cuts but bigger developments are, by their nature, bigger and less common. The ramps at Universal Studios Florida were reconfigured at Universal’s request for the expansion into Universal Studios Escape. The Disney Springs ramp involved the federal government because it involved a federally signed Interstate highway.


The Distict isn’t something that gets continually renewed. It would have to be dissolved by the state. Disney themselves have done a good job at getting bloated and killing advantages they once had over their competition.

Yeah the point is Disney has substantially more pull than a small business would. It’s not some conspiracy theory, it’s just common sense. They’re a massive employer and tax producer so it’s obvious and understandable the state government is going to look out for their interests which are in turn common interests. Getting back to how this relates to the Crossroads center the whole point being made here is that the state has designed a plan to benefit Disney at the expense of some smaller businesses. This is plainly obvious, they’re proposing closing and demolishing these businesses and realigning roads to lead directly into Disney property. An example of this is the bulk of the reason these businesses have to go is so that cars won’t have to stop and turn left to go into Disney and instead can now take a loop and drive straight in without stopping.

My issue with isn’t that Disney is the big evil corporation taking advantage of small businesses, I would be okay with that to an extent. My issue is that this just doesn’t seem to be that beneficial. It will have no effect on I-4, and the traffic on that section of 535 really isn’t a big issue. So I don’t see it being worth losing a whole shopping center. The biggest impact on traffic in this whole plan will be closing the businesses and reducing the demand for that exit. They could just as easily buy out Crossroads demolish it and turn it into a vacant field, save money by keeping the roads the same and would very likely have the same net effect.