Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[disdonald]

If Trump really went against his gut just to try to win re-election that’s even worse than just picking a bad path.

I can’t do the isolate the high risk thing again, it isn’t possible and is an economic disaster. Nothing more to say on that.

I blame more than just one person for this.
Local hospitals not prepared - Why? too much focus on building new palaces
States not prepared either - Why? budgets went to pet projects and not to what is important.

Governors constantly on TV complaining, where they should have been part of the solution. Some states hit hard have a lot of MFG capability and should have mobilized themselves.

Plenty of blame to go all around. President's personality definitely does not help, but others failed to put that aside and reach across the aisle.

 

[DisneyCane]

I really don’t see how anyone can be happy with our response, when adjusted for population we have the 10th highest death rate in the world. While I recognize the data coming out of some countries may be incomplete, when we look at our peers (Canada and major countries of Europe and Oceania) we have done worse then all of them with the exception of Spain and Belgium. (From worldometer)

View attachment 509122

There are countries much lower on the list that it is well known are not reporting accurate information like China so you can't really say we are 10th worst. Also, the difference between the USA and France (#18) is 0.16% of the population if you put it in terms of percentage so it isn't a drastic difference.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I blame more than just one person for this.
Local hospitals not prepared - Why? too much focus on building new palaces
States not prepared either - Why? budgets went to pet projects and not to what is important.

Governors constantly on TV complaining, where they should have been part of the solution. Some states hit hard have a lot of MFG capability and should have mobilized themselves.

Plenty of blame to go all around. President's personality definitely does not help, but others failed to put that aside and reach across the aisle.

Congress is to blame as well for helping Captain Super Spreader to politicize the situation and refusing to agree on anything.

 

[DisneyCane]

I didn't hate him until I started watching the daily updates and seeing what a truly horrible person and leader he is.

He was such a horrible person because he couldn't contain his frustration at the press who constantly attacked him with blame and gotcha questions.

Whatever, unfortunately I have to do work now so to the dismay of many I won't be able to participate in the discussion for the rest of today.

 

[MaryJaneP]

I don't expect a vaccine to magically work. I have stated (probably 1000 pages back) that with the expected level of effectiveness and the percentage of people who will take it, the virus will not be eradicated by a vaccine. That's why I posed the question way back (I think to @GoofGoof asking if we are to continue the mitigation measures in perpetuity.

You wouldn't get many CMs wanting to work on maskless day because they have been led to believe that it would put them at a much higher risk than they are now. I mean look at how many are wearing face shields even though that just protects them from somebody sneezing or coughing in their face.

I don't have an issue if a business like WDW wants to require masks. I think that requiring them outdoors is unnecessary but they can require what they want.

So the vaccine not being 100% guaranteed and unlikely to eradicate the virus completely is a given? BTW, many of today's vaccine are not 100% effective. If they can add the vaccine to the toolbox to fight this infectious disease, and all (or many) people employ at least this one strategy, will that not be progress? Do you think the other strategies should also be used by the public?

 

[baymenxpac]

I really don’t see how anyone can be happy with our response, when adjusted for population we have the 10th highest death rate in the world. While I recognize the data coming out of some countries may be incomplete, when we look at our peers (Canada and major countries of Europe and Oceania) we have done worse then all of them with the exception of Spain and Belgium. (From worldometer)

View attachment 509122

comparing countries is not particularly useful, based on a number of factors that include virus seasonality and when peak infection occurred, cohort make up (age a primary driver), underlying health.

but if you choose to, there's a lot of nuance you have to consider, probably most notably that peru had arguably the most aggressive lockdown and non-pharmaceutical intervention strategy (masks AND face shields mandatory), so i'm not sure how that really makes your point about the U.S.'s "response."

 

[Touchdown]

There are countries much lower on the list that it is well known are not reporting accurate information like China so you can't really say we are 10th worst. Also, the difference between the USA and France (#18) is 0.16% of the population if you put it in terms of percentage so it isn't a drastic difference.

As to your first sentence, I stated that not all numbers were accurate which is why I focused on our peer nations.

As to your second your equivocating, we had more time to prepare then Europe and our population is far more spread out and less reliant on public transportation then Europe. Given those facts, we should have never had numbers this high. We should be down with the likes of Australia and Canada. 60% of the country agrees with my assessment, along with most experts in the field.

 

[Jrb1979]

@DisneyCane and others this is a good article to show what should have been done along with the everything else.

What Canada’s COVID response can teach the U.S. about social safety nets

“Canada has done more, and more consistently, for more people than in the U.S. And we have been rewarded with much more robust job recovery and fewer business failures to date,” one economist says.

fortune.com

 

[DisneyDebRob]

You can have social distancing and target protecting the most vulnerable without forcing business closures. If it wasn't for the prospect of a relatively effective vaccine in much less time than normal then I would support "herd immunity" with no mitigation at all. I can support some mitigation because a vaccine may be available in a few more months. With a normal vaccine timeline, I would have said we can't "mitigate" for 4 or 5 years or longer so just let nature take its course as it did with all prior similar pandemics.

How did I know you were a big fan of the herd immunity stance. That is also not the way to go even if a vaccine is another year off. Most epidemiologists also disagree with that. Seems you are taking every position that you possibly can sway from science.

The false promise of herd immunity for COVID-19

Why proposals to largely let the virus run its course — embraced by Donald Trump’s administration and others — could bring “untold death and suffering”.

www.nature.com

 

[Touchdown]

comparing countries is not particularly useful, based on a number of factors that include virus seasonality and when peak infection occurred, cohort make up (age a primary driver), underlying health.

but if you choose to, there's a lot of nuance you have to consider, probably most notably that peru had arguably the most aggressive lockdown and non-pharmaceutical intervention strategy (masks AND face shields mandatory), so i'm not sure how that really makes your point about the U.S.'s "response."

Which is why I focused on “western” nations, we are more similar then different with European nations, Australia and Canada. Why are we so bad compared to them?

 

[GoofGoof]

I don't expect a vaccine to magically work. I have stated (probably 1000 pages back) that with the expected level of effectiveness and the percentage of people who will take it, the virus will not be eradicated by a vaccine. That's why I posed the question way back (I think to @GoofGoof asking if we are to continue the mitigation measures in perpetuity.

You wouldn't get many CMs wanting to work on maskless day because they have been led to believe that it would put them at a much higher risk than they are now. I mean look at how many are wearing face shields even though that just protects them from somebody sneezing or coughing in their face.

I don't have an issue if a business like WDW wants to require masks. I think that requiring them outdoors is unnecessary but they can require what they want.

What if you are wrong? You call them magic masks and say they don’t work but we have no way of knowing that’s the case. If people embrace the masks and it turns out they don’t do much what’s the harm? I wore a mask when I didn’t need to. If on the other hand I poo poo the masks because I believe they do nothing and it turns out they would have helped I am adding to the problem big time. To me there’s very little upside to resisting masks. Just foolish.

 

[Jrb1979]

Why Canada's job market is recovering from COVID-19 faster than the United States

Job markets on both sides of the border are still a long way from full recovery from the effects of COVID-19, but Canada is quietly pulling ahead of the U.S. after being neck and neck in June. “This coincided with a divergence of pandemic trajectories in each country, with new cases dropping in...

ca.finance.yahoo.com

Here is another article to show things didn't have to be this way.

 

[DisneyCane]

Nope. At first I was on his side with them, too. He's a horrible person because he cares more about his ego than he does actually leading. He's small-minded, a bully, and easily manipulated. He's also anti-science, a racist, and a sexist. He's flighty, amoral, and unethical.

I could keep going if you like.

You can have your opinions but calling somebody a racist is abhorrent. What has Donald Trump ever done that shows he is a racist? And don't bring up the Charlottesville quote because he immediately said "I'm not talking about the Neo-nazis and white supremacists because they should be condemned totally."

When people like you accuse him of being a racist you are accusing me of supporting racism and being a racist. It is absolutely disgusting that this is the argument people like you resort to.

You are just stating left wing talking points. How about some proof of his sexism. Anti-science because of pulling out of the Paris accord?

I wish I hadn't seen your reply because it has distracted me with intense anger. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand anyway but I couldn't let your ignorant reply go unopposed.

 

[Heppenheimer]

He was such a horrible person because he couldn't contain his frustration at the press who constantly attacked him with blame and gotcha questions.

Whatever, unfortunately I have to do work now so to the dismay of many I won't be able to participate in the discussion for the rest of today.

He has always been a horrible person and a terrible businessman. Anyone who paid attention to his casino ventures in Atlantic City should not be surprised what he would bring to the US as a whole:



Just so this doesn't become a segway into all the excuses he has offered about Atlantic City.... most of the casinos there were very profitable from the 80s to the early 2000s. As the video makes clear, he started defaulting on bond payments almost immediately.

I never thought I would vote Democrat for president, but here I am for the second time doing so.

 

[bdearl41]

I‘ll say it again, this isn’t a black and white problem. Pointing to other places and saying “see, they had an outbreak, that means the virus will just run its course and we shouldn’t do anything” is flawed logic. As you started out saying here the goal is to reduce spread not eradicate the virus forever. Too many people focus on the fact that the virus still exists and try to draw the conclusion that mitigating efforts didn’t work, that includes the governor of FL who stated in Sept that restrictions on restaurants don’t work because Miami limited restaurants and the virus still spread there.

You brought up New Zealand (which triggers the Covid denier crowd) but it should be held up as an example of exactly how to handle things. They locked down, reduced the virus to a level it could easily be traced and then got as far as zero cases for a period of several months, then they had some additional cases and immediately pivoted to further restrictions to contain an outbreak. This is exactly what the plan should be, and their economy is wide open. During the 100 days of zero cases they had bars open, fans in the stands for sports and other activities prohibited here. They did pivot to close some of that down temporarily, but that should always be the plan. Reduce infection, open the economy and pull back when there is a spike. Instead, in the US, any attempt to pull back is met with people railing about freedom and the economy and various political talking points. It’s hurting us from a public health standpoint but also economically.

Again, you’re assuming my point instead of reading it. I’m saying that nature will have to run its course. Mitigation will save lives, I am not arguing it. I’m arguing that the virus’ evolution and our bodies evolution HAS to occur. We can not intervene that fact through any measure. I guess my point since not part of the broader argument likes itself to get twisted into something it’s not. All I Have been saying is shutdowns for not help us move on from the virus. They simply slow down the natural process and reduce the amount of damage. Nature will still need to run its course whether fast or slow.

 

[SamusAranX]

Reading this thread gives me both short term headaches and slight despair

 

[Touchdown]

Let’s focus on Covid people, leave your attacks on our leaders character to the political board.

 

[DisneyCane]

He has always been a horrible person and a terrible businessman. Anyone who paid attention to his casino ventures in Atlantic City should not be surprised what he would bring to the US as a whole:



Just so this doesn't become a segway into all the excuses he has offered about Atlantic City.... most of the casinos there were very profitable from the 80s to the early 2000s. As the video makes clear, he started defaulting on bond payments almost immediately.

I never thought I would vote Democrat for president, but here I am for the second time doing so.

Whatever he has been as a businessman, he has been the only President that has ever actually tried to do everything he promised in the campaign. Also, he couldn't have been that bad as a businessman because he was able to become a billionaire.

 

[baymenxpac]

Which is why I focused on “western” nations, we are more similar then different with European nations, Australia and Canada. Why are we so bad compared to them?

this is a really flawed argument. we're "more similar" to australia, which is in a different hemisphere (thus different flu and coronavirus season), is less populated, and is a nation that consists entirely of islands. "european nations" is a pretty big net to cast. what i'm saying is that comparisons like this are basically useless and supremely unhelpful to inform public policy. when we look at other nations, the most we are really able to discern (and even that has a lot of grey area in it) are is the varying degrees of interventions seemingly making a difference?

in a vacuum, i think some large contributors to U.S. death rates is: early treatment protocols followed ahead and during the april peak (ventilators turned out to be bad, steroids good. we found that out after we tried putting everyone on a ventilator). underlying health of the cohort is a huge factor. and then there is, of course, how we count deaths.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Let’s focus on Covid people, leave your attacks on our leaders character to the political board.

Apologies. I just can't believe we've got people still fighting against what science says are the best tools to use against a pandemic.