Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Came across an interesting article from 2002 about plans to reintroduce the smallpox vaccine out of fears of it being weaponized. The plans were controversial because the smallpox vaccine is considered to be the most dangerous vaccine. They get into the odds of serious complications and even death which are not even measured as a percentage, they are out of a million inoculations. One death and up to about 75 serious complications out of a million. 300 American deaths was considered far too many for something that most assuredly would have killed more if released into a less populated area.

We received them in the military around this time. Once they realized that Saddam wasn't going to release a pestilence upon the Earth, the program faded away.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
So the Black Plague or bubonic plague was a bacterial infection spread by rats and fleas. Not a viral infection. They did practice quarantining but that took seven years to eliminate from London and did nothing to stop spread from other parts of Europe. It actually originated from Constantinople and kill 1/3 of Europe. So I wouldn’t say quarantines necessarily worked.
They also had no idea what spread the disease. Quarantining would only have a slight mitigating effect. The problem was the filthy, packed conditions of the towns and cities that bred a huge rat population.

We are the only major vectors for COVID-19, so quarantining is an effective mitigation tool.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
How many people lost their job due to those evil lockdowns vs lost their job because our government failed to control this virus and has continued to ravage this country for 7+ months?

Just food for thought, I would love to see someone breakdown that question.
It is a virus. Humans can not really "control" this (or any) virus without medical intervention such as a vaccine or cure. Some viruses can be contained with isolation, quarantine and contact tracing but for that to work the virus must cause somewhat severe illness in almost all patients and certainly can't be able to spread by asymptomatic carriers like this one.

The only way any government (and it is ravaging the entire world, not just the USA) can modify the outbreak curve is to control the behavior of the citizens. The more suppression of the curve is desired, the more freedom must be taken from the citizens. However, as seen in many places, once those freedoms are restored the virus will do what viruses do and spread at the prior rate again.

This is the reason why the topic has become political, because it is. The further "right" somebody is, the more they tend to be appalled at taking away freedoms and tend to feel that people should be personally responsible for their own safety. The further "left" somebody is, the more they tend to feel "the government" can and should do whatever is necessary to take care of people and keep them safe.

The mask "battle" is nothing more than a metaphor for the divergent schools of thought. To somebody on the right, it represents authoritarian control. To somebody on the left it represents caring for your fellow man and "doing something."

"Control" of this virus is a trade off between the level of "control" of the virus and the level of shutting down freedoms and the economy. It also leads to an increase in unintended consequences like mental illness, addiction issues and some increase in domestic violence. Of course, less "control" of the spread of the virus and more freedoms and personal responsibility will also have some detrimental effect on the economy which will have some of those unintended consequences as well.

Had the world (and it would have been required for the entire world to act in concert) completely and totally shut down for 2 months or more (no essential businesses, nobody coming into any contact with any person outside of their household), it might have stopped the spread but would have taken the worldwide economy back to the stone age and probably led to the breakdown of civilization.

The bottom line is there is no "correct" answer. There is only what each person believes is the acceptable trade off. I am often accused of my beliefs on the subject being selfish. In a way that is true but the opposing belief is selfish also. It might be "touchy feely" and sound good but wanting me to give up my freedoms to protect you is also selfish.

The only thing that both sides are ever going to agree on is that the world will not be back to normal until there is a safe and highly effective vaccine available.
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
"For a month, beginning in November, United Airlines will test passengers over the age of 2 for the coronavirus on select flights from Newark Liberty International Airport to Heathrow Airport in London, in a trial intended to help convince government officials that testing could be a crucial part of reopening international travel.

United will administer the rapid molecular Abbott ID Now Covid-19 test to people flying between Nov. 11 and Dec. 11 on Flight 14, departing at 7:15 p.m. on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from Newark. Everyone hoping to be on those flights will have to test negative for the coronavirus to board the plane. Those who test positive will be isolated and asked to get in touch with their health care provider, and the airline will help them book a flight for a later date. People who do not want to take the test will be moved to another flight.

“We believe the ability to provide fast, same-day Covid-19 testing will play a vital role in safely reopening travel around the world and navigating quarantines and travel restrictions, particularly to key international destinations like London,” said Toby Enqvist, chief customer officer for United. In September, international air arrivals to New York’s five regional airports were down 82 percent compared with September 2019, according to data from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey."

 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
It is a virus. Humans can not really "control" this (or any) virus without medical intervention such as a vaccine or cure. Some viruses can be contained with isolation, quarantine and contact tracing but for that to work the virus must cause somewhat severe illness in almost all patients and certainly can't be able to spread by asymptomatic carriers like this one.

The only way any government (and it is ravaging the entire world, not just the USA) can modify the outbreak curve is to control the behavior of the citizens. The more suppression of the curve is desired, the more freedom must be taken from the citizens. However, as seen in many places, once those freedoms are restored the virus will do what viruses do and spread at the prior rate again.

This is the reason why the topic has become political, because it is. The further "right" somebody is, the more they tend to be appalled at taking away freedoms and tend to feel that people should be personally responsible for their own safety. The further "left" somebody is, the more they tend to feel "the government" can and should do whatever is necessary to take care of people and keep them safe.

The mask "battle" is nothing more than a metaphor for the divergent schools of thought. To somebody on the right, it represents authoritarian control. To somebody on the left it represents caring for your fellow man and "doing something."

"Control" of this virus is a trade off between the level of "control" of the virus and the level of shutting down freedoms and the economy. It also leads to an increase in unintended consequences like mental illness, addiction issues and some increase in domestic violence. Of course, less "control" of the spread of the virus and more freedoms and personal responsibility will also have some detrimental effect on the economy which will have some of those unintended consequences as well.

Had the world (and it would have been required for the entire world to act in concert) completely and totally shut down for 2 months or more (no essential businesses, nobody coming into any contact with any person outside of their household), it might have stopped the spread but would have taken the worldwide economy back to the stone age and probably led to the breakdown of civilization.

The bottom line is there is no "correct" answer. There is only what each person believes is the acceptable trade off. I am often accused of my beliefs on the subject being selfish. In a way that is true but the opposing belief is selfish also. It might be "touchy feely" and sound good but wanting me to give up my freedoms to protect you is also selfish.

The only thing that both sides are ever going to agree on is that the world will not be back to normal until there is a safe and highly effective vaccine available.
Refusing to wear a mask, social distance, and limit gatherings IS selfish. It's the people refusing to do these things that are causing cases to rise again and forcing us to face another possible shut-down...which they balk at VERY LOUDLY. The thing is - NO ONE wants another shut-down. We should ALL be doing the very best that we can to follow the guidelines so that as many businesses as possible can stay open with as few restrictions as possible and so that schools can stay open. Being defiant in the midst of a pandemic is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot and then expecting to win a marathon.

The guidance since the first shut-down has been to slow the spread as much as possible and re-open SLOWLY and in phases...with the understanding that the need to pause phases or even go back a step may (and would be likely) to occur. Unfortunately, Captain Super Spreader is a moron and has pushed science aside and has encouraged states to do the same, and we're all going to suffer for it.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Your freedom ends when you start endangering the basic rights of others, chief among them being another persons right to life. Not wearing a mask and engaging in risky activities (attending large gatherings, eating at an indoor restaurant/bar, going out into the public with symptoms) is risking the life of others.

What some people fail to understand, all rights are not created equal, the order that Thomas Jefferson put them in the Declaration of Independence (which he copied from John Locke) is their order of importance. Anyone’s right to life trumps (no pun intended) another’s right to liberty and happiness. That is why murder is considered the most heinous crime a person can commit (and has no statue of limitations,) and why the government has always had the power to force quarantines.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Refusing to wear a mask, social distance, and limit gatherings IS selfish. It's the people refusing to do these things that are causing cases to rise again and forcing us to face another possible shut-down...which they balk at VERY LOUDLY. The thing is - NO ONE wants another shut-down. We should ALL be doing the very best that we can to follow the guidelines so that as many businesses as possible can stay open with as few restrictions as possible and so that schools can stay open. Being defiant in the midst of a pandemic is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot and then expecting to win a marathon.

The guidance since the first shut-down has been to slow the spread as much as possible and re-open SLOWLY and in phases...with the understanding that the need to pause phases or even go back a step may (and would be likely) to occur. Unfortunately, Captain Super Spreader is a moron and has pushed science aside and has encouraged states to do the same, and we're all going to suffer for it.

Your reply makes my point. Very little is "science" in this discussion. Masks and 6' distancing are best guesses and hypotheses. An just like I'm not convinced that cloth face coverings really do much, people on the "need to do everything possible side" keep putting out studies on how 6' distancing isn't enough. It is also selfish to impose restrictions on people who have less than a 1% chance of currently being infected in order to protect yourself.

You are wrong that nobody wants another shut down. The fact that they are starting to happen in Europe means that they do. They can excuse them as being "necessary" but that doesn't mean they don't want them. If they didn't want them they wouldn't happen.

The first sentence of your last paragraph illustrates how political this is and how you just have a 180 degree different philosophy than I do. By saying it that way, it's as if I agreed to this guidance or that the guidance doesn't involve the government taking away freedoms involuntarily. All Captain Hide in the Basement would have done differently is kept the lockdowns going for longer which I think is moronic. As can be seen in Europe, the countries that did everything "right" in your eyes are seeing a resurgence. We can't stay locked down indefinitely which is the only thing that would "work."
 

DisneyDebRob

Well-Known Member
Your reply makes my point. Very little is "science" in this discussion. Masks and 6' distancing are best guesses and hypotheses. An just like I'm not convinced that cloth face coverings really do much, people on the "need to do everything possible side" keep putting out studies on how 6' distancing isn't enough. It is also selfish to impose restrictions on people who have less than a 1% chance of currently being infected in order to protect yourself.

You are wrong that nobody wants another shut down. The fact that they are starting to happen in Europe means that they do. They can excuse them as being "necessary" but that doesn't mean they don't want them. If they didn't want them they wouldn't happen.

The first sentence of your last paragraph illustrates how political this is and how you just have a 180 degree different philosophy than I do. By saying it that way, it's as if I agreed to this guidance or that the guidance doesn't involve the government taking away freedoms involuntarily. All Captain Hide in the Basement would have done differently is kept the lockdowns going for longer which I think is moronic. As can be seen in Europe, the countries that did everything "right" in your eyes are seeing a resurgence. We can't stay locked down indefinitely which is the only thing that would "work."
The US has made this pandemic political, more then any other country in the world. That’s a fact. People around the world are trying to do the best to mitigate it until help comes along. Is there protests or people saying they don’t want these measures across the world? Of course there are but they are no where close to us here. They make news because that’s what gets viewers here. Here’s the latest pew poll on what I just said.
As for your constant nonsense on masks.. I see you changed your wording from “ magic masks” to “ it’s a best guess or hypothesis “ that they work, stop. The science is there. The studies are there. You can believe what you want but if you choose to ignore science that’s on you.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Your freedom ends when you start endangering the basic rights of others, chief among them being another persons right to life. Not wearing a mask and engaging in risky activities (attending large gatherings, eating at an indoor restaurant/bar, going out into the public with symptoms) is risking the life of others.

What some people fail to understand, all rights are not created equal, the order that Thomas Jefferson put them in the Declaration of Independence (which he copied from John Locke) is their order of importance. Anyone’s right to life trumps (no pun intended) another’s right to liberty and happiness. That is why murder is considered the most heinous crime a person can commit (and has no statue of limitations,) and why the government has always had the power to force quarantines.

You are interpreting "life" in the Declaration of independence in a different way then was intended. It is also wrongly interpreted by proponents of one side of a hot button issue which I will not bring into this thread. Here is a description that I found:

"The Declaration of Independence names three rights given to all human beings that no authorities can deny. One of those rights is the right to have ownership of one’s life. While life and death are frequently “administered” by mechanisms such as medical procedures, war, and criminal justice, the Founders believed that our birth, our creation as part of nature can never be predestined by the requirements of bureaucracy or the actions of legislators or jurists."

That said, if somebody has symptoms or knows they are infected, not taking precautions would be reckless endangerment. I don't have any issue with forced isolation of people who are definitely infected and likely contagious. What I do have a problem with is policies that treat everybody as if they are infected and likely contagious, even though it is over a 99% chance that they are not.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Or WW1.. or the Great Recession.. or the pandemic of 1918 etc.

The lack of information would have been a hindrance to stopping spread in 1918-19...

The lack of reading comprehension/common sense is the issue now.

And I see Tucker is using Declaration of Independence as a the “legal” argument now? Is that after somebody finally read the US Constitution and all federal and state codes/case law and found out masks aren’t illegal?

...the DOI is a great document...but it is in fact an essay...not a legal document.

5 Days...let it be done.
 
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DisneyDebRob

Well-Known Member
It is political everywhere. The issue in the US is that our political climate has been a tinder box since the "hanging chads" in the 2000 election. There is no reasoned political discussion on any issue. The fact that opponents had branded Trump as evil incarnate and his supporters as scum of the earth morons before COVID is the reason why the intensity of the political aspects of COVID are so much higher here.

If "magic masks" work then why are there restrictions on capacities and gatherings? Why can't everybody just wear a "magic mask" and go on with life? The answer is that they don't "work." They may do something and have some effect in some situations but they don't "work" from the standpoint of preventing significant spread.

Sure there is science that can show them catching a percentage of droplets or reducing the distance they travel. However, that will only have a highly significant effect on somebody coughing and/or sneezing. Aerosols won't be reduced at all by a cloth face covering. If continuous spew of tiny droplets from talking and breathing are a significant contributor to the spread, the face covering isn't going to stop nearly enough of the droplets to make a big difference in the situations that are ripe for spread.
🤦🤦🤦
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
^You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it does.

No one wants a shutdown, but some leaders feel their countries situation no needs one and sees no other option to stem the tide of this thing.
No one has ever wanted a shutdown...except maybe Jeff Bezos...

It has been a move that has been last resort in EVERY instance when officials don’t see better options...because there is too much damage after you give in and don’t mitigate.

It’s AMAZING that people have their head so far up the business end of their GI track after almost a year that it still hasn’t dawned on them.

The French really want to be stuck inside and told what to do...says No one who has ever set foot in France or spoken to a Frenchman...
 

DisneyDebRob

Well-Known Member
It is political everywhere. The issue in the US is that our political climate has been a tinder box since the "hanging chads" in the 2000 election. There is no reasoned political discussion on any issue. The fact that opponents had branded Trump as evil incarnate and his supporters as scum of the earth morons before COVID is the reason why the intensity of the political aspects of COVID are so much higher here.
No. It was because of the worst response you could possibly have to this virus from any administration is why it’s so high. When you have so much incompetence it makes people angry.
If "magic masks" work then why are there restrictions on capacities and gatherings? Why can't everybody just wear a "magic mask" and go on with life? The answer is that they don't "work." They may do something and have some effect in some situations but they don't "work" from the standpoint of preventing significant spread.
I give up. Believe what the yeti is telling you at the end of the flat earth. I give up
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
The lack of information would have been a hindrance to stopping spread in 1918-19...

The lack of reading comprehension/common sense is the issue now.

And I see Tucker is now using Declaration of Independence as a the “legal” argument now? Is that after somebody finally read the US Constitution and all federal and state codes/case law and found out masks aren’t illegal?

...the DOI is a great document...but it is in fact an essay...not a legal document.

5 Days...let it be done.
Who ever said masks are illegal? The federal government can't impose a mask mandate but a state certainly can IF THEY PASS A LAW.

If by "let it be done" you mean the status quo remains then I'm with you. I know that isn't what you mean and if you get your wish, the only real difference is that the vaccine will be ready soon after 1/20 so it will look like the new guy did a better job than the old guy in defeating the virus.
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
Did London quarantine the rats and/or the fleas, or just the people and leave the vectors of the sickness to freely range over the city for years until the great fire?
 
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