Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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hopemax

Well-Known Member
interesting you chose IFRs above what’s generally considered the high end of .4

Using .26, you can cut your lowest estimate in half.
Do you know why I don't do that.

If IFR is .26%, and the population of New York City is 8.399 million. That would predict that 21,837 people would die. Do you know how many people in NYC have already died? 21,941.

This is why actual epidemiologists have been skeptical of the CDC estimate. At some point, estimates have to be compared to observed reality, in areas that have had a full-fledged outbreak.

So I am using the .5-1% range that epidemiologists are more comfortable with. You can go with the one you want.
 

MaximumEd

Well-Known Member
I’m not saying we should do nothing.....at all. Let me repeat that if need be. That being said, at this point either reaching herd immunity or hopefully developing an effective vaccine is looking to be inevitable. At the rate we are going I hope the vaccine comes quickly.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Effective herd immunity is 15-20%. True herd immunity, ie wiping the virus out completely is undoubtably higher.
Says who? I would be very happy if that’s the case, but right now it’s an interesting theory that hasn‘t been proven. Even in NYC which has likely hit the 15-20% threshold there are still hundreds of new cases a day. Not spikes like other places and so much less than during their peak, but not zero either.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
Source for your number?
A quick Google shows every source saying 70-90%

There is a point where even uncontrolled spread will stop being exponential (because most people already have it) but that's different from herd immunity which protects people who haven't caught it.
We were talking about a specific theory, as presented by someone apparently named Michael Levitt. I presented some numbers of what number of infection and deaths we should expect, working from the premise that he is right. So we could compare them to actual numbers to track the validity of the theory.

Of course, other people have other theories.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Why is California doing so badly? Weren't they massively more locked down?
CA was moving forward with re-opening the same as everywhere else. DLR was supposed to open the same time as WDW before they pulled back on their plans. CA also did not have a state wide mask requirement which it now has implemented.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
Why is California doing so badly? Weren't they massively more locked down?
Their numbers are high in the Hispanic community. Less likely to be able to work from home, more "essential worker" professions where social distancing and mask use is irregular. Plus, cultural attitudes about family (more multi-generational households, probably continued to have family gatherings).
 

Dizneykid

Active Member
If the theme park closed all indoor venues (rides, shops, restaurants, transportation, hotel lobbies) then it would be fair to say theme parks are the equivalent to standing outside in a group. The logic applies well to a zoo where there’s very little activity that’s not outside.

☆ Lurker chiming in. Shops and lobbies are no different than what we are generally allowed to do everywhere already. I feel for people in apartments if lobbies are unsafe. Even indoor rides qualify as brief standing or walking in a line. Gathering outside with or without a mask carries risk depending on proximity and duration of interaction. I fail to see how Disney doesn't exceed the standards.

I can't see any circumstance where people would be standing in a group at Walt disney world with these rules.
 

Miss Bella

Well-Known Member
i just want to weigh in, because i've checked in on this thread many, many times over the past few months, and almost always closed it quickly in frustration.

the biggest misstep that has been done stateside is how early and quickly it got politicized. i will lay all my cards out on the table for you and let you know i am a self-described progressive and did not/will not vote for the current president. i'm also a new yorker, so i live in the hardest-hit area in the country and have a different perspective than most.

i worry that the discourse in this country is so divided that one side wants to make covid a fairytale, while the other side wants to treat it like it's the black plague. the truth is obviously in the middle. where on the spectrum it is is something that settled science probably won't indicate for years.

so yeah, the positivity rate looks bleak in the south and southeast. but also, the median patient age and the average severity of illness are big factors, as are a host of others. whether i give you a five dollar bill or a hundred dollar bill, i've given you cash, but we can agree that there's a pretty big difference in what i've given you, right? i would also argue that we don't have the testing capability to find every case, based on 35-to-50% being asymptomatic. that does not mean we should scale down testing, but if you were asymptomatic in march (i very well could have been), how am i ever going to know? and no, antibody tests do not always instruct an answer (i personally know of several long island railroad workers that tested positive on a PCR test, waited three weeks, then tested negative for antibodies).

we've assumed a lot of group think operating under the guise of settled science, but truthfully, the science on this is very much unsettled. sure, i'm proud that new york has "flattened the curve," but there's also a very real chance that...we didn't, and the virus ran its course through our area affecting everyone it was going to infect, leaving the vulnerable with the worse outcomes. citing the diamond princess data, a 2013 nobel laureate, michael levitt, contends that the virus does not grow exponentially, instead, he says it infects 15-20% of a population before it burns out. the most accurate model, covid19-projections.com -- a machine-learning model that has been far better than the abysmal IHME and others -- predicts my county of residence at 17.2% infection, the county over from me at 21.8%, and NYC at 22.8%. that assumes infections at ~5-times higher than documented cases. in the last few weeks, we've had protests, outdoor dining for three weeks and indoor dining for one on long island (one week of outdoor dining in the city), and still a new positivity rate of ~1% for almost a month. so have we snuffed it out? or does the burnout theory have credence? we don't know yet, but we can't lump all voices that dissent into the honey-crusted nut bar category, because little we've heard from those that have influenced policy makers have borne out to be right.

that doesn't mean we should take life with covid lightly. we can probably agree that we need to agree how we can take common sense mitigation techniques while operating in society. to me, masks aren't a big deal, nor is keeping your distance from someone when possible and limiting (but not eliminating) your social circle. i also think that there are certain things we absolutely need to get back to. in my opinion, in-person school is at the top of that list.

apologies if this seems like a stream of consciousness, but i just feel like we can all do better to try to understand this thing at a deeper level, think critically, and try to leave red-team/blue-team at the door. there's nothing to say that i'm a progressive, so i am required to think i have to stay inside for three years. nor is there anything stopping my trump-supporting grandfather from wearing a mask when he goes out in public.

anyway, hoping for the best in all this. be cool to each other.
First thing you did was tell us your political views and then tell us not to politicize it. You could have left that part out.
 

Angelo721

Member
Just an Idea. If protests DON'T cause spikes in COVID-19, then instead of a vacation to Disney, why not call it a Disney Protest? Instead of sending the kids to school in the fall, call it an in school Protest.

My daughter plays Division 1 college volleyball. All athletes in her school (350) are getting tested. All NCAA college athletes in the country (460,000) are getting tested. We can agree that these young adults, men and women are probably the fittest, strongest out of all of us. They have to be to play college sports. So who cares if they are asymptomatic? Nothing bad will happen to them. They will be quarantined for 14 days and then start their seasons. And yes, they announced full in classroom classes come August.

There is no need to panic.

When more stuff opens, more people get tested and more cases are found. More Asymptomatic cases. We take the proper steps to be safe and life goes on. If we tested everyone in the US we would have double the cases we have now.

What we are not talking about is the stress, panic and loss of money we are all facing. Loosing your job making $1,000 a week and having to live on $250 a week is a big hit in the face. The stress and panic wear on the body. Having to quit your job because you have to stay home with your kids because school is not opening is stressful. Some of us will not recover. Telling your kids they have to eat PB&J for lunch because you can't afford lunch meat or cheese, is awful. Why so a few people don't get the sniffles.

We need to think of what happens to the people who are barely making ends meet. Pushing back the opening of WDW is not about riding Space Mountain or Dole Whips. It is about the people who work there, who need a pay check.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
☆ Lurker chiming in. Shops and lobbies are no different than what we are generally allowed to do everywhere already. I feel for people in apartments if lobbies are unsafe. Even indoor rides qualify as brief standing or walking in a line. Gathering outside with or without a mask carries risk depending on proximity and duration of interaction. I fail to see how Disney doesn't exceed the standards.

I can't see any circumstance where people would be standing in a group at Walt disney world with these rules.
Who said Disney didn’t exceed any standards? What I posted is a simple concept. The other poster was saying protests and theme parks are basically the same and I pointed out how they are different. It doesn’t mean theme parks can’t open or don’t meet any standards. The outdoor portions of a theme park are similar to the protests. The protests themselves did not have an indoor component. Theme parks have a mix of aspects that are similar to a number of other activities including outdoor group gatherings, public transit (at least WDW, maybe not others), retail stores, restaurants, bars, hotel lobbies, theaters and gyms if you include the fitness centers or pools. So you can’t just compare them to one thing (protests) without considering the other aspects. All of those similar activities are open to some capacity assuming proper precautions are taken including social distancing and masks.
 

baymenxpac

Well-Known Member
First thing you did was tell us your political views and then tell us not to politicize it. You could have left that part out.

thanks, but i'm going to stet your change. mostly because i don't think you got it.

the issue was already politicized at the national level all the way back in february. because of the very human nature to look for community in like-minded voices, it has created an echo chamber on each side of the covid debate. the right downplays it, the left dramatizes it. there's a very good reason that i told you my political views: so that it would see that i don't necessary fall rank-and-file as a blue voter from a blue state with a blue governor.

but hey, they make a heck of a sbarro slice at MCO, right?
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Just an Idea. If protests DON'T cause spikes in COVID-19, then instead of a vacation to Disney, why not call it a Disney Protest? Instead of sending the kids to school in the fall, call it an in school Protest.

My daughter plays Division 1 college volleyball. All athletes in her school (350) are getting tested. All NCAA college athletes in the country (460,000) are getting tested. We can agree that these young adults, men and women are probably the fittest, strongest out of all of us. They have to be to play college sports. So who cares if they are asymptomatic? Nothing bad will happen to them. They will be quarantined for 14 days and then start their seasons. And yes, they announced full in classroom classes come August.

There is no need to panic.

When more stuff opens, more people get tested and more cases are found. More Asymptomatic cases. We take the proper steps to be safe and life goes on. If we tested everyone in the US we would have double the cases we have now.

What we are not talking about is the stress, panic and loss of money we are all facing. Loosing your job making $1,000 a week and having to live on $250 a week is a big hit in the face. The stress and panic wear on the body. Having to quit your job because you have to stay home with your kids because school is not opening is stressful. Some of us will not recover. Telling your kids they have to eat PB&J for lunch because you can't afford lunch meat or cheese, is awful. Why so a few people don't get the sniffles.

We need to think of what happens to the people who are barely making ends meet. Pushing back the opening of WDW is not about riding Space Mountain or Dole Whips. It is about the people who work there, who need a pay check.
I don’t disagree that people should be thinking about the workers and their well being (financial and health). I wish the anti-mask crowd would consider that. If people could have followed the mask and distancing recommendations and had a little self control, bars and other businesses wouldn’t be shutting back down and putting people back out of work. Putting aside the health risks workers face its selfish for people to refuse to sacrifice a little comfort to keep things moving along with re-openings. Hopefully thie recent pullbacks are a wake up call and people will get with the program for the better good.
 

Dizneykid

Active Member
Who said Disney didn’t exceed any standards? What I posted is a simple concept. The other poster was saying protests and theme parks are basically the same and I pointed out how they are different. It doesn’t mean theme parks can’t open or don’t meet any standards. The outdoor portions of a theme park are similar to the protests. The protests themselves did not have an indoor component. Theme parks have a mix of aspects that are similar to a number of other activities including outdoor group gatherings, public transit (at least WDW, maybe not others), retail stores, restaurants, bars, hotel lobbies, theaters and gyms if you include the fitness centers or pools. So you can’t just compare them to one thing (protests) without considering the other aspects. All of those similar activities are open to some capacity assuming proper precautions are taken including social distancing and masks.

No worries. I just needed to point out that there's a disinction between standing within inches in a crowd of thousands and spreading out. I think standing close for long periods even with a mask on is far more exposure risk than anything happening at the mouse house. That doesn't mean the protesters can't carry on. It's just a glaringly obvious difference between environments and keeps coming up as a comparison for that reason.
 

Miss Bella

Well-Known Member
thanks, but i'm going to stet your change. mostly because i don't think you got it.

the issue was already politicized at the national level all the way back in february. because of the very human nature to look for community in like-minded voices, it has created an echo chamber on each side of the covid debate. the right downplays it, the left dramatizes it. there's a very good reason that i told you my political views: so that it would see that i don't necessary fall rank-and-file as a blue voter from a blue state with a blue governor.

but hey, they make a heck of a sbarro slice at MCO, right?
No actually I got it, but it unfortunate that you needed to clarify that to point out what’s so obvious. One thing that has been shocking to me over the 3 months is that New Yorkers put up with all this.
 

Dizneykid

Active Member
thanks, but i'm going to stet your change. mostly because i don't think you got it.

the issue was already politicized at the national level all the way back in february. because of the very human nature to look for community in like-minded voices, it has created an echo chamber on each side of the covid debate. the right downplays it, the left dramatizes it. there's a very good reason that i told you my political views: so that it would see that i don't necessary fall rank-and-file as a blue voter from a blue state with a blue governor.

but hey, they make a heck of a sbarro slice at MCO, right?

You just triggered me. Our mall doesn't have Sbarro anymore. I don't know if it makes me uncool but I loved that place. 🍕
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
No worries. I just needed to point out that there's a disinction between standing within inches in a crowd of thousands and spreading out. I think standing close for long periods even with a mask on is far more exposure risk than anything happening at the mouse house. That doesn't mean the protesters can't carry on. It's just a glaringly obvious difference between environments and keeps coming up as a comparison for that reason.
I agree. The protests themselves are probably even more problematic than the outdoor parts of a theme park, especially with parades and fireworks cancelled. The only real bottlenecks for groups outside at a theme park is at the front gates but that hopefully doesn’t last very long.
 

Miss Bella

Well-Known Member
Their numbers are high in the Hispanic community. Less likely to be able to work from home, more "essential worker" professions where social distancing and mask use is irregular. Plus, cultural attitudes about family (more multi-generational households, probably continued to have family gatherings).
Exactly the problem in my state. I work in a Hispanic community. Across the street from the hospital Saturday night there’s a soccer tournament and big party going on. Probably a thousand people unmasked. I’m not saying this stuff shouldn’t be allowed I’m on the anti lockdown side, but our stupid governor closed gyms. Closing gyms is not going to solve the problem. People that go to gyms are health conscience. Theywere social distancing and taking precautions. I guess he needed to calm the hysterical media and make it look like he was doing something.
 
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