Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[MisterPenguin]

Can’t mandate vaccines for the kids until they are fully approved, at least that’s my understanding.

Ya, know. Back at the beginning of the 1900's, Massachusetts mandated a small pox vaccine. It was challenged and went all the way to the Supreme Court which said a state had the right to ensure the safety of its citizens. And that's why all the challenges to local mandates have failed in courts, due to that precedent.

There was no FDA back then to say whether the vaccine was approved. The EU protocols requires informing those receiving it of possible side effects which are not totally known yet. It doesn't preclude mandating it. "Emergency Use" doesn't mean 'untested' or 'experimental'... it means the full process of authorization hasn't been completed, but, given the circumstances, it can be used.

U.S. DOJ States that Emergency Use Authorization Does Not Preclude Vaccine Mandates

The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has released an opinion (originally prepared on July 6, 2021 for the Deputy Counsel to the President) definitively

www.laboremploymentreport.com

 

[mmascari]

Chuck the masks, take down the plexiglass, reopen everything, and return the world to the way it was in 2019, with the exception of a vaccination mandate for inbound international travelers, including American citizens returning from abroad. Once the pediatric vaccine has been fully approved, make it mandatory for enrollment in public schools. Accept that endemic viruses are an inescapable fact of human life.

So, somewhere between 60% to 70% of population vaccinated.
No mitigations at all. Let it rip.

No where near enough vaccinated to actually drive spread down.

Deaths stay over 200,000 or 300,000 a year. Does that make COVID the third leading cause of death in the US forever going forward?


I suppose this isn't really "forever", just for the next 10 to 20 years. Once it's mandated for kids in school, we'll eventually get enough people vaccinated. It's just going to take a generation. Probably get there about the same time as the fifth gate opens.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So, somewhere between 60% to 70% of population vaccinated.
No mitigations at all. Let it rip.

No where near enough vaccinated to actually drive spread down.

Deaths stay over 200,000 or 300,000 a year. Does that make COVID the third leading cause of death in the US forever going forward?


I suppose this isn't really "forever", just for the next 10 to 20 years. Once it's mandated for kids in school, we'll eventually get enough people vaccinated. It's just going to take a generation. Probably get there about the same time as the fifth gate opens.

Continue to pursue increased vaccination rates as aggressively as is constitutionally permissible. But there's no need to be masking toddlers in the meantime.

 

[DisneyCane]

So, somewhere between 60% to 70% of population vaccinated.
No mitigations at all. Let it rip.

No where near enough vaccinated to actually drive spread down.

Deaths stay over 200,000 or 300,000 a year. Does that make COVID the third leading cause of death in the US forever going forward?


I suppose this isn't really "forever", just for the next 10 to 20 years. Once it's mandated for kids in school, we'll eventually get enough people vaccinated. It's just going to take a generation. Probably get there about the same time as the fifth gate opens.

Yes to your opening paragraph. Those who want to have low risk will get vaccinated and stay on top of boosters.

 

[mmascari]

Continue to pursue increased vaccination rates as aggressively as is constitutionally permissible. But there's no need to be masking toddlers in the meantime.

That's fair enough, for toddlers. I don't think that's what the original poster meant though. They didn't answer, so I'm assuming they meant we've reached maximum response, we're not getting more, and we should stop anything else we're doing to "move on".

I would totally support no masks for anyone under 5.
I would totally support anyone over 5 who isn't vaccinated being isolated from society and having to take extra precautions whenever they interact with the rest of society. No honor system, enforced just like not creating a public heath issue is enforced.

That would let everyone "under 5" and "over 5 and vaccinated" move on and drop all other things. I'm even good including anyone who is unable to vaccinate in this group. There's not enough of them compared to the size of the vaccinated group to matter in the end. It's not a choice for them if they're incapable of being vaccinated. That doesn't include those who could but will not. Including them throws off the numbers to much and it matters for the outcome.

 

[mmascari]

Yes to your opening paragraph. Those who want to have low risk will get vaccinated and stay on top of boosters.

The rest comes with it. That's the implication if you do the opening paragraph. If the rest doesn't work for you, then you don't really agree with the first either.

 

[Angel Ariel]

That doesn't answer the question at all. Practically speaking what does "move on" mean?

Are we changing our behaviors from what we do today to something else?
Are we keeping all the current behaviors forever more because we're at the end already?

What does "move on" actually mean?

There's at least one poster here, who if "we're done, move on" means we're keeping all the existing behaviors "as-is" going forward will be unhappy if masks stay on public transit.

There's an entire army of people here who if keeping the current indoor masks at WDW forever because that's the new normal will have a fit. Some of them will never go again. And others who would ditch them all last week even if that meant an uptick in transmission at WDW.

So, what does "move on" actually mean for our actions and behaviors?

When I see “move on,” imo it implies moving back to pre-Covid norms.

 

[Andrew C]

When I see “move on,” imo it implies moving back to pre-Covid norms.

There is a huge chunk of the country that is already living this way. I would say over 50%. Of course everyone still sees the affects of Covid in certain situations. Whether it be when they travel, go to the grocery store and see shortages and/or prices, or go to buy a car. But I think it’s a safe to assume that the majority no longer mitigates.

 

[Angel Ariel]

While I certainly appreciate the urge to return to 2019, I also do believe there have been some critical lessons learned - about about accessibility in particular - that I truly hope do not disappear when covid becomes endemic.

 

[Andrew C]

While I certainly appreciate the urge to return to 2019, I also do believe there have been some critical lessons learned - about about accessibility in particular - that I truly hope do not disappear when covid becomes endemic.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by accessibility? I am genuinely curious.

 

[Disney Boater]

We are almost 2 years into this! It isn't March 2020

We know who is at grave risk of death due to Covid, This isn't a secret, though seldomly talked about. (hint, it isn't healthy kids)
We know that it is a good idea for most people to get vaccinated
We know that certain people should probably stay out of risky situations
We know that some people never want us to get back to normal (though they would never admit it)
We know that some people will never get vaccinated
We know that the NFL and other sports are back to normal (Full stadiums, money talks)
We know that science has become political
We know that the shutdowns not only didn't work, they were terrible for our youth
And we definitely know that driving in your car with your mask on is just stupid!

We have vaccines, therapeutics, and knowledge. MOVE ON!!!

Are you telling me that we don't have enough knowledge at this point to have practical mitigation strategies for the at risk population without destroying our civilization in the process?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

There is a huge chunk of the country that is already living this way. I would say over 50%. Of course everyone still sees the affects of Covid in certain situations. Whether it be when they travel, go to the grocery store and see shortages and/or prices, or go to buy a car. But I think it’s a safe to assume that the majority no longer mitigates.

If there's a name for this paradox, I don't remember it, but the irony is that the people living normally are also the least likely to be vaccinated, while the heavily-vaccinated communities are the same ones who are still being forced to mask and distance.

 

[Andrew C]

If there's a name for this paradox, I don't remember it, but the irony is that the people living normally are also the least likely to be vaccinated, while the heavily-vaccinated communities are the same ones who are still being forced to mask and distance.

I am vaccinated AND living normally. Such an outlier.

 

[mmascari]

If there's a name for this paradox, I don't remember it, but the irony is that the people living normally are also the least likely to be vaccinated, while the heavily-vaccinated communities are the same ones who are still being forced to mask and distance.

This is probably true. Not that those I know (including myself) are really doing much mitigation. Masks when in enclosed spaces with unknown people is the biggest one. Not traveling to areas of high spread is the next. Not really dining indoors may be the most visible one. That's about it then. I've been to stadium events, mask free when outdoors, masked in the restroom. I still avoid the train mostly but not completely.

Lots of unvaccinated people probably are ignoring all of those. Lots of unvaccinated people of all ages also died last month.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by accessibility? I am genuinely curious.

As a personal example from my life…our pta events were entirely in person pre-Covid, and when we started to explore hybrid in-person/live-streamed events, there were serious concerns about the viability - for privacy and technical reasons. We struggled to get a lot of in person attendance, relative to the size of our district, as our district is 400 square miles, and this particular pta serves the whole district. Choosing in person locations (no matter what we do) means someone is driving 30-40 minutes each way just to get there. With virtual events we take out the transportation issue that is a serious barrier. All of our events have been virtual since March 2020, and our attendance has been significantly higher than pre-Covid.

There are impacts on a societal level as well. Disabled people had been asking for increased telework opportunities for years. When the pandemic hit, all of a sudden jobs that disabled people had been told could never be done via telework were having to be done via telework. Because of the widespread impact of Covid, companies had to figure it out. And they did. This should continue, which then opens up more employment opportunities for disabled people than existed pre-Covid. There have been many articles on this type of impact - here’s one:

https://www.guardianlife.com/coronavirus/how-can-workplaces-support-people-with-disabilities

I’ve got to head to a (virtual) meeting - so I’ll leave it there for now

 

[Andrew C]

As a personal example from my life…our pta events were entirely in person pre-Covid, and when we started to explore hybrid in-person/live-streamed events, there were serious concerns about the viability - for privacy and technical reasons. We struggled to get a lot of in person attendance, relative to the size of our district, as our district is 400 square miles, and this particular pta serves the whole district. Choosing in person locations (no matter what we do) means someone is driving 30-40 minutes each way just to get there. With virtual events we take out the transportation issue that is a serious barrier. All of our events have been virtual since March 2020, and our attendance has been significantly higher than pre-Covid.

There are impacts on a societal level as well. Disabled people had been asking for increased telework opportunities for years. When the pandemic hit, all of a sudden jobs that disabled people had been told could never be done via telework were having to be done via telework. Because of the widespread impact of Covid, companies had to figure it out. And they did. This should continue, which then opens up more employment opportunities for disabled people than existed pre-Covid. There have been many articles on this type of impact - here’s one:

https://www.guardianlife.com/coronavirus/how-can-workplaces-support-people-with-disabilities

I’ve got to head to a (virtual) meeting - so I’ll leave it there for now

Thank you for the response. Have a good meeting!

 

[Ayla]

When I see “move on,” imo it implies moving back to pre-Covid norms.

When I see "it's time to move on", what I hear is "it's inconvenient for me and I don't like it, so I want it over and done."

 

[mmascari]

We are almost 2 years into this! It isn't March 2020

We know who is at grave risk of death due to Covid, This isn't a secret, though seldomly talked about. (hint, it isn't healthy kids)

It's been trending younger every month, it's not March 2020. Protect just the fragile was never a good plan.

We know that it is a good idea for most people to get vaccinated

Yup. You said we're done though. We're at all we're getting.

We know that certain people should probably stay out of risky situations

We also know that unvaccinated people can make a situation more risky for someone else through no choice of the other person.

We know that some people never want us to get back to normal (though they would never admit it)

I don't know anyone like this. I've never read a report of anyone like this. Most people I know are literally begging others to get vaccinated so we'll get back to normal.

We know that some people will never get vaccinated

Some people will always drink and drive.
Some people pollute the environment in personal ways.
Some people create hazards in public.
We don't humor those people and just ignore them. We actively try to remove them from public.

We know that the NFL and other sports are back to normal (Full stadiums, money talks)

I've been to stadium events, although not the NFL. The stands are pretty well ventilated. Especially while vaccinated. Being close may increase the risk, but probably not enough to overcome the vaccine reduction for the most. At those events, additional mitigation was required when in enclose spaces like rest rooms.

We know that science has become political

This only ever feels true for people that don't like science or one political side. But, whatever.

We know that the shutdowns not only didn't work, they were terrible for our youth

There's nobody shutdown anywhere in the US and hasn't been for a very long time. I did have a friends classroom close for a week recently. They had 5 positive cases of kids all in the same class. Seemed reasonable to figure out if it was the class that was the issue.

And we definitely know that driving in your car with your mask on is just stupid!

Uber? Alone? Right after dropping someone off? Right before? Maybe it's cold and heat doesn't work? Who gives a flying f is someone else wears a mask alone in their car or not. We're not privy to the exact events before or after and it's nobody's place to judge that. I don't judge the person wearing a coat instead of turning up the heat in their car.

We have vaccines, therapeutics, and knowledge. MOVE ON!!!

Are you telling me that we don't have enough knowledge at this point to have practical mitigation strategies for the at risk population without destroying our civilization in the process?

Apparently, we have moved on. As there is no "at risk population" vs "not at risk population", there's just "population" and we seem to have found a level of mitigation to apply that isn't destroying our civilization. Here I thought you wanted less mitigations. Thanks for clearing that up. Status quo, we're good now, sort of.

Except for that masks on public transit. That's clearly on the edge of destroying our civilization.

 

[Ayla]

I have gone back to normal in all aspects of my life, with two changes: I wear a mask and I'm vaccinated+.

We regularly dine indoors and have been since earlier this year (obviously sans mask while eating).
I've flown 4 times in the last 9 months, all for vacations (twice to Disney, wearing a mask where required).
I've gone to multiple MLB games, even after they went back to full capacity (wearing a mask)
I attended Summerfest this Summer and went to a headliner concert in the main Amphitheater (wearing a mask).

Are there things I've avoided because I knew they were too risky for my comfort level? Absolutely.

So, even though I think mask mandates should remain in place and people should stay cautious based on their comfort level, I'm not refusing to live my life or "hiding in fear".

 

[Nubs70]

OSHA just suspended activity on enforcement of vaccine mandate