Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Chip Chipperson]

I did not say there should be no customer masking or distancing. The cashier can refuse the non masked customer based on unsafe work condition. There are plenty of workplace protection laws to back up the cashier.

How does refusing to ring up the maskless person prevent the cashier from being exposed to that person if they're already there???

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree, but that's not really what I was asking. I want to know what will make people who are covid-risk averse to be comfortable with normalcy. Because, quite honestly - whenever we reach whatever that benchmark is (be it death rate, infection rate, % vaccinated) there will still be people who will be unhappy with the relaxation of mask and distancing guidelines. How are we going to be able to move past that emotional barrier? Thats what I want to know....

It will happen over time. Take WDW as a perfect example. If they relax the mask and distancing requirement at some point this Summer there will be many people who are happy with that change but there will be some people who are no longer comfortable going to WDW because of that. Most who don’t feel comfortable will eventually get comfortable with going back but it may take them some time. As they get comfortable doing other activities it will build up confidence in going to a place with large groups of strangers. There is no light switch where we pick a date and everything goes back to normal. It will happen gradually.

 

[GoofGoof]

I did not say there should be no customer masking or distancing. The cashier can refuse the non masked customer based on unsafe work condition. There are plenty of workplace protection laws to back up the cashier.

I guess I’m not following what you are saying. If there were no mask requirements because everyone was just assessing their own risk and deciding if they wanted to do take that risk or not than there‘s no protection for the worker. If the store has a mask policy (like most do today) then the worker is protected but then we are mandating people‘s behavior by requiring a mask so we aren’t letting people decide what risk they can tolerate. What am I missing?

 

[corsairk09]

A large portion of those 550,000 Americans would be alive today if they had taken better care of themselves for most of the previous years of their lives.
That is a fact.

I do find it interesting that people are shaming others for getting the vaccine, claiming the need to be responsible for yourself and others..... but the second you point this out they shame you. If we are looking at health through the lens of personal and community responsibility then people SHOULD take way better care of themselves and they SHOULD get the vaccine. It's both, not one or the other.

 

[correcaminos]

It not just fat shaming its showing your privilege.

When people are working 2 fast food jobs to make ends meet, where do you think they are going to eat?

When you live in the innner city where there are no grocery stores and you have no transportation, where are you going to eat?

When you have a limited budget are you going to buy the salmon and quinoa or hamburger helper?

Yes there is the portion of the population that don't care about their health or weight, the Roger Alles of the world, but there are many that don't have the time or economic privelege to live a healthy livestyle.

As far as the covid death numbers, IMHO I just don't see how in the slums of Mumbai,where you have one toilet for every 1200 people, and the other hell holes around the third world that you could have accurate data.

There is a ton of truth to this, but many won't respond well because of that awful word called privilege. Not just cost of food but time to prepare foods. Many really don't have the time to make a better for you less processed dinner even if the same price (I learned how to make cheap, good foods, but they were time consuming).

Just back from a week in Florida. 2 days at Universal and 7 at Disney.

I have to say I was VERY dissappointed in Disney and how they are NOT enforcing the "rules" of mask wearing and social distancing.
In general no one seemed to care except the guy in the checkout line at Disney store in the Springs who was ready to fight the guy behind him when his kids got too close (that was rediculous especially what was going on everywhere)

Saw people not eating or drinking with their masks on their chin. Castmember says please put your mask on. Guy does it walks a few steps away and pulls it right back down. TOTALLY within sight of the castmember. What does this say to EVERYONE - the rule is just a statement that means nothing! Whole families where they all had their masks below their nose.....this is not a misstake this is a choice. Many times those famies were standing RIGHT IN FRONT of a castmember while we were all in line and castmember said NOTHING.
The only times the castmembers seemed to be taking the rule seriously were 2 rides where I heard them say put your mask back on or you will have to leave (Star tours where I think they thought they had closed the door so they couldn't see but they could!)

Do I want Disney to be 'mean" and I am sure they are thinking they want to be pleasant to everyone but you are in fact being mean/rude to the other people who ARE following the rules. Those masks get hot during the day. We were so relieved when we got back to our room and could take them off BUT we wore them! DH and I are fully vaccinated but we wore them!

I think people are sick of it outdoors to be fair. And honestly at this point with all we know - rightly so. My zoo is the same way. I will admit to now wearing a looser fitting mask outdoors at our zoo that requires it, but it really needs to go away. Keep them for indoors and in queue. That's it.

I'm tired of a lot but at this point especially vaccinated people are really sick of this. Yes it is a rule and one should follow but this kind of action is what I think will drive no masks outdoors faster.

Also, the article you posted also mentioned developmental disabilities as a comorbidity with one of the worst outcomes for COVID-19 cases. So, I guess I should tell my son with Down's syndrome that he's on his own?

This rings true to me personally - with a loved one, not my own, but still. Or other developmentally delayed.

Sadly I don’t have that option. My husband is on incredibly strong immunosuppressant drugs for a rare skin condition, these drugs are also given to people who have had heart transplants. We have been warned to avoid mixing with people who have NOT been vaccinated, or tested negative within the previous 24 hours AT ALL COSTS. So no options for us without very high vaccination numbers or vaccine passports. This is despite the fact that we have had our first vaccination and are scheduled for our second soon. So, yes we are reliant on the consideration and compliance of others.

These are cases that make me wish more would vaccinate

 

[correcaminos]

I do find it interesting that people are shaming others for getting the vaccine, claiming the need to be responsible for yourself and others..... but the second you point this out they shame you. If we are looking at health through the lens of personal and community responsibility then people SHOULD take way better care of themselves and they SHOULD get the vaccine. It's both, not one or the other.

history of posters matters as an FYI and you failed to get the point that there is a quantifiable population that died due to no issues. Or if their comorbidities were due to no fault of their own.

People should take care of themselves yes. Their outcome of health really only affects them in the end. Vaccination does not affect just a single person but the population as a whole also. Apples and oranges really.

 

[Nubs70]

I guess I’m not following what you are saying. If there were no mask requirements because everyone was just assessing their own risk and deciding if they wanted to do take that risk or not than there‘s no protection for the worker. If the store has a mask policy (like most do today) then the worker is protected but then we are mandating people‘s behavior by requiring a mask so we aren’t letting people decide what risk they can tolerate. What am I missing?

Even with mask requirements, there will be non compliance individuals. Make a risk assessment on the environment with consideration of the presence of non compliant individual. If the potential of non compliant imdividuals exceeds the risk threshold, modify.your plan or don't engage in that activity.

 

[sullyinMT]

Sadly I don’t have that option. My husband is on incredibly strong immunosuppressant drugs for a rare skin condition, these drugs are also given to people who have had heart transplants. We have been warned to avoid mixing with people who have NOT been vaccinated, or tested negative within the previous 24 hours AT ALL COSTS. So no options for us without very high vaccination numbers or vaccine passports. This is despite the fact that we have had our first vaccination and are scheduled for our second soon. So, yes we are reliant on the consideration and compliance of others.

Please don’t regard this as flippant, and I’m grateful that your nation (England, right? At least G.B., I know) has shown a high level of uptake in vaccine for the eligible. At what point does the vaccine passport become moot for a family in your situation?

I ask because my boys’ piano instructor has rightfully holed herself up for all intents and purposes during her cancer treatments. It’s a battle she seems to be winning, thankfully (under 40, young kids with aggressive breast cancer). She’s recently started heading out for small, controlled outings. Still not teaching piano, and I think that’s the right decision until her students can be vaccinated.

Now isn’t the time for normal; I get that. I’m just curious for when someone in your family’s position would be comfortable with a transatlantic flight and a tourist destination again. Or, if it’s so far down the road that it isn’t even a thought now, I respect that, too

 

[Chi84]

There is a ton of truth to this, but many won't respond well because of that awful word called privilege. Not just cost of food but time to prepare foods. Many really don't have the time to make a better for you less processed dinner even if the same price (I learned how to make cheap, good foods, but they were time consuming).

I think people are sick of it outdoors to be fair. And honestly at this point with all we know - rightly so. My zoo is the same way. I will admit to now wearing a looser fitting mask outdoors at our zoo that requires it, but it really needs to go away. Keep them for indoors and in queue. That's it.

I'm tired of a lot but at this point especially vaccinated people are really sick of this. Yes it is a rule and one should follow but this kind of action is what I think will drive no masks outdoors faster.

This rings true to me personally - with a loved one, not my own, but still. Or other developmentally delayed.

These are cases that make me wish more would vaccinate

Are Outdoor Mask Mandates Still Necessary?

Governments need to give Americans an off-ramp to the post-pandemic world. Ending outdoor mask requirements would be a good place to start.

www.theatlantic.com

I posted this in another thread; this article makes so many good points.

 

[JD80]

I agree, but that's not really what I was asking. I want to know what will make people who are covid-risk averse to be comfortable with normalcy. Because, quite honestly - whenever we reach whatever that benchmark is (be it death rate, infection rate, % vaccinated) there will still be people who will be unhappy with the relaxation of mask and distancing guidelines. How are we going to be able to move past that emotional barrier? Thats what I want to know....

Going from 60-70k infections a day to under 10k/1k is going to be a long haul assuming our vaccination rate remains steady. You'll start seeing it wind down over the course of 2-3 months and during that period people will become more and more comfortable as the fully vaccinated become the majority rather than the minority.

That emotional barrier will slowly drop and even the bigger skeptics will see it with their own eyes.

The emotional scarring, however, is going to be here a long long time.

 

[Kevin_W]

I ask because my boys’ piano instructor has rightfully holed herself up for all intents and purposes during her cancer treatments. It’s a battle she seems to be winning, thankfully (under 40, young kids with aggressive breast cancer). She’s recently started heading out for small, controlled outings. Still not teaching piano, and I think that’s the right decision until her students can be vaccinated.

FWIW, my nephew has been taking piano lessons via zoom (or Skype, not sure which) during the pandemic. It's not as ideal as sitting at the piano, but it has still worked to progress his skills. It could be an option for your friend.

 

[sullyinMT]

They will have to adjust - just like those who believe the current mitigation measures go too far have had to adjust. I suspect some people will continue to wear masks and practice some measure of social distancing even after those measures are dropped. Personally, I will probably have a mask available whenever I get on a plane in case I'm seated next to someone who is sneezing and coughing - never would have thought of it before all of this.

My wife (used to and starts again next month) travels for work regularly. I used to rib her for flying in a mask. Guess what? She was right again. I can’t believe I used to fly without one. She’s “never” sick on vacation, and I’m “always” a little cruddy. I used to blame it on allergies, but who knows?

 

[mmascari]

The risk area is the grocery store, amusement park or restaurant not just the specific area within the risk area. If you go to the grocery store etc.. plan for interaction with non compliant individuals. If there is a queue with a bunch of maskless, go to the line without the maskless or wait until the maskless move on.

Why do I have to compromise my rights for "non compliant individuals"? What makes their "freedom" more important than mine and allows them to impose conditions on me?

We're talking about breathing on other people. But why draw the line there?
Can I skip the pants and fart with wild abandon in public? If you don't like it, stay away.
How about swing my arms around wildly? If you get punched, that's your fault should have stayed farther away than my arms.
If I'm driving down the road and you're jaywalking, can I just plow you over?
How about if there's no crosswalk? Or a parking lot?
The ride queue, can I just skip it and go to the front? That'll make WDW much nicer if I never have to wait in line, sucks for the rest of you.

 

[sullyinMT]

FWIW, my nephew has been taking piano lessons via zoom (or Skype, not sure which) during the pandemic. It's not as ideal as sitting at the piano, but it has still worked to progress his skills. It could be an option for your friend.

She definitely tried it in the beginning, with similar to your nephew’s results. I think the absence of lessons now is a function of her general fatigue and maximizing family time.

 

[Flugell]

Please don’t regard this as flippant, and I’m grateful that your nation (England, right? At least G.B., I know) has shown a high level of uptake in vaccine for the eligible. At what point does the vaccine passport become moot for a family in your situation?

I ask because my boys’ piano instructor has rightfully holed herself up for all intents and purposes during her cancer treatments. It’s a battle she seems to be winning, thankfully (under 40, young kids with aggressive breast cancer). She’s recently started heading out for small, controlled outings. Still not teaching piano, and I think that’s the right decision until her students can be vaccinated.

Now isn’t the time for normal; I get that. I’m just curious for when someone in your family’s position would be comfortable with a transatlantic flight and a tourist destination again. Or, if it’s so far down the road that it isn’t even a thought now, I respect that, too

Yes, you are correct England! Firstly may I wish the piano instructor all the best for her ongoing treatment.
As for returning to normal, or at least dipping a toe back into society, I guess that will be dependent on doctors advice. Hopefully the treatment my husband is currently on will work and he will be taken off the immunosuppressant drugs in the next few months. He will then be tested to see if the vaccine has “taken” and if it hasn’t produced the required antibodies he will be given an additional booster. At that point we will be at no greater risk than anyone else. If the cases have dropped even more in the USA, even stayed as they are now in the U.K. and we are allowed to travel into (and out of the USA) then Florida here we come! I suppose the only provisos are the ability to get travel insurance - at a reasonable price and that the USA is insisting on vaccination for all international visitors. Just looking at India and Brazil at the moment but hopefully the world will be more under control by then.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

You make some good points, and I am very sympathetic of others suffering with allergies. But I am also not very tolerant of those who fake allergies to get out of things.

In the 44 years I have had a severe allergy, my radar goes up with others mention having severe allergies like mine. My immediate reaction is empathy; this person "understands". So when I see that person then indulging in the very allergen they previously said was deadly to them, it bothers me. While they may have their reasons, I can't deny that this type of behavior makes it more challenging for me and others like me to be taken seriously - and that needs to be called out.

Forgive me, but your posts - to me- appear almost dangerously ill-informed. This is supposed to be a thread about COVID, so i will try to keep this diversion short.

Food allergy reactions can manifest in a variety of ways. They can even come to manifest as food cravings. This is notoriously common for those with milk allergies. Caregivers unwittingly insist that children drink milk every day. Schools and daycare centers provide free milk and similarly insist children drink milk, because "Milk is healthy!" People (usually children) with milk allergies then get so accustomed to daily reaction cycle that their bodies crave it! Sadly these children are often diagnosed with behavior disorders, when really they are just experiencing an allergic reaction.

If that wasn't horrible enough, any person who is prone to have 1 food allergy is prone to having multiple food allergies, though not always.

On top of that, there is not truly reliable way to test for food allergies. Skin prick tests partly work, but not always. There can be false negatives and false positives. Both of these factors make food allergies hard to diagnose. Diagnoses is often only possible via an elimination diet that lasts two full weeks. That = no wheat, milk, shellfish, nuts, coconut, egg, soy, fish, sesame. Nothing with any trace of any of these item, no eating out, and no cross contamination, and EVEN THEN a person can be allergic to ANY protein. They MIGHT be allergic to corn, gelatin, even beef or chicken!

Elimination diets are hard, because cross contamination is very easy. It can happen if a pot/pan is used to cook pasta, or a counter isn't wiped, a cup isn't properly washed. It can also happen when a food is processed/packaged.

Another poorly understood aspect of allergies is the idea of threshold. Allergic person A might experience a strong allergic reaction after exposure to .01grams of the allergen. Allergic person B might not experience a full reaction unless they are exposed to 5grams of the allergen (I'm making up random numbers.)

Allergies reactions are ranked on a scale, I think 1-5. But reaction level is very different from threshold. Person A might have a mild allergy (level 1 or 2) while person B has a strong (level 4 or5) allergic response.

Further...some allergic reactions are only triggered, I'm not quite sure how to say, but some reactions only occur when multiple factors occur at the same time. This is a bit tricky to explain in this space, but a person who has both a grass allergy and a milk allergy might be able to tolerate milk alone, but not MILK+GRASS TOGETHER at the same time. Again, this is part of why allergies, and related conditions, can be hard to diagnose.

A person with a - fairly severe wheat allergy may indeed be able to tolerate- at times- small amounts of wheat. They just have to carefully manage the quantity, AND they should understand food allergy severity can change over time.

I'll toss out one more common misunderstanding: allergies are always triggered by proteins. They are NOT triggered by fats, for example. People with severe peanut allergies can often tolerate peanut OIL just fine, so long as it is HIGHLY REFINED peanut oil. HIGHLY REFINED peanut oil = almost pure oil, VERY low protein. A person with a very low threshold though may well react to even a very tiny bit of peanut protein, so it is not safe to assume peanut oil is safe for every person with a peanut allergy.

It is therefore horribly incorrect, and very dangerous, to think that tolerating peanut OIL = that person can tolerate PEANUT PROTEIN.

Please, allergies are very complicated, confusing, and widely misunderstood. All of us would do well to be better informed, as many allergies go dangerously undiagnosed/misdiagnosed, for many years. This is a Disney forum, not a good place to get medical advice from me or anyone else. We should all seek reputable sources of information. When it comes to allergies, that can be difficult, as they are not well understood.

 

[Nubs70]

Why do I have to compromise my rights for "non compliant individuals"? What makes their "freedom" more important than mine and allows them to impose conditions on me?

We're talking about breathing on other people. But why draw the line there?
Can I skip the pants and fart with wild abandon in public? If you don't like it, stay away.

You can but not really socially acceptable

How about swing my arms around wildly? If you get punched, that's your fault should have stayed farther away than my arms.

Nope, there is a law against simple battery

If I'm driving down the road and you're jaywalking, can I just plow you over?

Nope, state law that pedestrians have right of way

How about if there's no crosswalk? Or a parking lot

as long as you make a reasonable attempt at avoidance.

The ride queue, can I just skip it and go to the front? That'll make WDW much nicer if I never have to wait in line, sucks for the rest of you.

No as companies have a policy against line jumping.

In the end, if you want to participate in society and minimize chances of exposure, you need to take personal responsibility for your safety that may include inconvenience to your personal liberty.

 

[JoeCamel]

Yes, you are correct England! Firstly may I wish the piano instructor all the best for her ongoing treatment.
As for returning to normal, or at least dipping a toe back into society, I guess that will be dependent on doctors advice. Hopefully the treatment my husband is currently on will work and he will be taken off the immunosuppressant drugs in the next few months. He will then be tested to see if the vaccine has “taken” and if it hasn’t produced the required antibodies he will be given an additional booster. At that point we will be at no greater risk than anyone else. If the cases have dropped even more in the USA, even stayed as they are now in the U.K. and we are allowed to travel into (and out of the USA) then Florida here we come! I suppose the only provisos are the ability to get travel insurance - at a reasonable price and that the USA is insisting on vaccination for all international visitors. Just looking at India and Brazil at the moment but hopefully the world will be more under control by then.

I hope you get to come to Florida soon

 

[Jrb1979]

Point is to take a risk assesment of your situation and act in your self interest. Do not rely on others to act in your self interest.

My job is outside sales. I drive over 4000 miles per month and am in hotels at least 8 nights a month. I was only in the bunker for the first 2 weeks of this pandemic back in March 2020. I am Type II. In December I was out for 2 weeks for removal of squamous cell carcinoma. My wife is a nurse on the front line. I well know the risks of Covid and am around the risk everyday more than most.

Everyday I assess risk and act in my own self interest. I do not rely on others to act in response to my own comorbidities.

That attitude is partly why we are in the situation we are on. Too many only look out for themselves. I remember back at the beginning we were all in this together. Some where that changed

 

[GoofGoof]

Changing gears a little. It looks like both Moderna and Novavax are both actively working on vaccines that will combine the annual flu shot with a covid shot. This has been talked about and speculated here by a bunch of people. I think if this is the way we go it makes the variant issue a lot less of a worry. Even if more vaccine resistant mutations occur we can modify the annual shots to adapt to that.

The Moderna CEO's Bold Statement That May Mean Bad News for Novavax | The Motley Fool

Moderna is aiming for a new market.

www.fool.com