Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Mark52479]

DVC owners were restricted from going to “the property they own” when the resorts were closed in 2020. Owners are also required to follow all of the rules Disney lays out. You cannot bring a gun with you into a DVC room even if you are an owner. There’s zero reason why Disney couldn‘t restrict DVC owners for Covid vaccines too. Not saying they will do it, but if they don’t that won’t be the reason why they don’t do it.

DVC owners were restricted because DVC used the Florida State of Emergency as reason for closure which they are allowed to do per contract.

They were only able to use it for so long which is why DVC hotels opened almost a month earlier than parks.

Disney would open themselves up to massive lawsuits if they required vaccine proof for people who actually have an ownership interest in those resorts.

 

[GoofGoof]

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Still confused how this changes anything. Disney still has the ability to set rules and if you don’t want to follow them you can’t come. Right now DVC owners still must wear masks and distance and follow any other Covid rules. They are not exempt because they own a real estate interest in a timeshare. Disney has every right to not allow you into their property if you won’t follow the rules. If they chose to mandate vaccines (I don’t think that will happen any time soon if at all) the rule would apply to DVC owners too.

 

[Chi84]

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You are buying a property interest and have a deed, need to pay taxes etc. But what you get is an allotment of points that have to be used in accordance with the DVC contract. You can’t just show up and stay on “your property.”

 

[GoofGoof]

DVC owners were restricted because DVC used the Florida State of Emergency as reason for closure which they are allowed to do per contract.

They were only able to use it for so long which is why DVC hotels opened almost a month earlier than parks.

Disney would open themselves up to massive lawsuits if they required vaccine proof for people who actually have an ownership interest in those resorts.

DVC resorts opened because of the disaster with the points accumulating not because of fear of lawsuits.

 

[Mark52479]

Still confused how this changes anything. Disney still has the ability to set rules and if you don’t want to follow them you can’t come. Right now DVC owners still must wear masks and distance and follow any other Covid rules. They are not exempt because they own a real estate interest in a timeshare. Disney has every right to not allow you into their property if you won’t follow the rules. If they chose to mandate vaccines (I don’t think that will happen any time soon if at all) the rule would apply to DVC owners too.

we can agree to disagree that is fine

 

[Mark52479]

DVC resorts opened because of the disaster with the points accumulating not because of fear of lawsuits.

again we can agree to disagree that is fine

 

[GoofGoof]

Switching gears a little. Here’s an interesting article showing the disparity of economic impact of the pandemic between higher earners and lower earners.

The richest 20% of America are the real pandemic supersavers

U.S. households accumulated around $1.6 trillion in excess savings over the last 10 months, but that mostly stayed at the top.

www.yahoo.com

It’s interesting to read that the top 20% of earners increased their savings significantly and the next 20% had a modest increase while the bottom 60% saw savings shrink. This is somewhat unusual for a normal recession. It’s also why some economists are expecting to see some bump from pent up demand from people just waiting for it to be safe to travel and spend money on leisure activities. I would assume that WDW‘s primary target customer is that top 20% of earners and also the next 20%. That’s not to say people in the bottom half of earners don’t go to WDW but they may not be the top target. If the vaccine rollout is successful and on schedule it’s possible WDW sees some kind of bump this summer from that pent up demand. I’m sure that’s the hope anyway. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[Chi84]

again we can agree to disagree that is fine

Are you a DVC member? If so, the contract sets out the terms of your ownership interest. It’s not a matter of opinion.

 

[carolina_yankee]

DVC owners were restricted because DVC used the Florida State of Emergency as reason for closure which they are allowed to do per contract.

They were only able to use it for so long which is why DVC hotels opened almost a month earlier than parks.

Disney would open themselves up to massive lawsuits if they required vaccine proof for people who actually have an ownership interest in those resorts.

DVC has restricted individual owners who have caused problems in the past. You misbehave and you get trespassed from the property. All of it.

 

[Bullseye1967]

Polk County FL is a whole different mindset. Winter Haven and Lakeland just encourages one to wear a mask.

You weren't kidding. Lakeland had about 50% wearing them. Winter Haven maybe 70% and Dundee in last at maybe 30% and that is being generous. The only business we went into that required a mask was WaWa and even there they didn't enforce it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

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DDC has the ability to alter the conditions on those contracts in a ton of ways...or they wouldn’t have written them. They do turn into a pumpkin after 40 years...afterall.

Not sure how vaccines would play in the tinkering. Really an unknown.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

A lot of people are confused as to what exactly you're buying with DVC.

...I read it. Cover to cover. 16 years ago

 

[mmascari]

Here's a question for you all. Do you think Disney will make the vaccine mandatory? Some people are talking about it being mandatory at music concerts, movie theaters etc.

What’s the penalty to someone who lies?
What’s the risk to someone, if someone else lies?
What’s the penalty to someone who lies, and people get sick?

Do you just exclude customers who legit cannot get vaccinated?
Is the goal to not need other mitigation things, or something else?


Was there ever any follow up reporting after that guy with symptoms died on the flight? Who clearly said he was fine on the preflight questionnaire. Did anyone else on that flight get sick and trace it back to the flight? If there was, did they sue the family for expenses for any long term medical issues?

Those are the fake ids, lies, lawsuits, and liability exposures we'll get to see. The cruise one will be “fun” when a local sues the cruise company for wrongful death if the cruise passengers don’t have to follow restricted travel and quarantine requirements.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

DVC owners were restricted from going to “the property they own” when the resorts were closed in 2020. Owners are also required to follow all of the rules Disney lays out. You cannot bring a gun with you into a DVC room even if you are an owner. There’s zero reason why Disney couldn‘t restrict DVC owners for Covid vaccines too. Not saying they will do it, but if they don’t that won’t be the reason why they don’t do it.

My suspicion is you are correct. Can’t prove it...but I Just know it’s true.

You are buying a property interest and have a deed, need to pay taxes etc. But what you get is an allotment of points that have to be used in accordance with the DVC contract. You can’t just show up and stay on “your property.”

They make a big deal of saying “it’s not a timeshare”...but that’s only in relation to the calendar.

It is a timeshare and therefore a rental. You don’t “own” anything that you have proprietary rights to.

My unit - 27A - That I “bought”...gives me nothing of “free choice”

Disney could say “in accordance with” any number of situations and require the vaccines...is my suspicion.

I don’t think they will though. But they absolutely want to. Simple is better for them.

 

[GoofGoof]

DDC has the ability to alter the conditions on those contracts in a ton of ways...or they wouldn’t have written them. They do turn into a pumpkin after 40 years...afterall.

Not sure how vaccines would play in the tinkering. Really an unknown.

Not to mention the fact that as owners we have essentially given the power to run the resorts as they see fit over to Disney. There’s no mechanism to object to the way they run things. Owners really have very little power. There was a lot of talk of potential lawsuits from the resorts being closed but that was mostly just fanboy chatter with no real legal merit. Disney did eventually push to open the DVC resorts early but that had way more to do with the glut of points accumulating vs any fear of member lawsuits.

 

[Chi84]

My suspicion is you are correct. Can’t prove it...but I Just know it’s true.



They make a big deal of saying “it’s not a timeshare”...but that’s only in relation to the calendar.

It is a timeshare and therefor a rental. You don’t “own” anything that you have proprietary rights to.

My unit - 27A - That I “bought”...gives me nothing of “free choice”

Disney could say “in accordance with” and number of situations and require the vaccines...is my suspicion.

I don’t think they will though. But they absolutely want to. Simple is better for them.

The amendment provision is very broad: " DVC Operator reserves the right to amend these Rules and Regulations, in its discretion. These changes may affect a Club Member's right to use, exchange, or rent the Club Member's Ownership interest and may impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of the Club Member's Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club Membership. Club Members will be notified of any such changes through Member Services publications, including posting on a Club website."

If you go to the section on access to units and vacation homes, you can see it was amended to incorporate the room security checks. "Notwithstanding the use of a sign on the door of a Unit or Vacation Home that it is occupied or a request to forgo housekeeping services or any other request not to be disturbed that is made by the occupant *** the DVC Operator, and each of their respective employees *** shall have the right to enter the Unit or Vacation Home for any purpose, including *** conducting a visual inspection of the Unit or Vacation Home, or checking on the safety and security of occupants, other persons, and property."

I think it's too soon - the situation is too unstable right now - to say whether they could or would require vaccinations to enter the property.

 

[Chi84]

What’s the penalty to someone who lies?
What’s the risk to someone, if someone else lies?
What’s the penalty to someone who lies, and people get sick?

Do you just exclude customers who legit cannot get vaccinated?
Is the goal to not need other mitigation things, or something else?


Was there ever any follow up reporting after that guy with symptoms died on the flight? Who clearly said he was fine on the preflight questionnaire. Did anyone else on that flight get sick and trace it back to the flight? If there was, did they sue the family for expenses for any long term medical issues?

Those are the fake ids, lies, lawsuits, and liability exposures we'll get to see. The cruise one will be “fun” when a local sues the cruise company for wrongful death if the cruise passengers don’t have to follow restricted travel and quarantine requirements.

Whatever system is chosen for proof of vaccination will have to meet certain standards and safeguards; there's no way they would just take someone's word for it. No system is ever perfect - as long as what is chosen is reasonably reliable, that should meet legal standards. Highly effective vaccines are far superior at keeping people safe than any of the current mitigation efforts.

The current mitigation efforts were designed as a short-term solution, not a permanent one. Society needs to look forward to what will happen if COVID is still with us a year or so from now. Vaccine and health passports are already in the works, whether or not you agree with them. It will be up to our political process to decide whether they pass muster.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Not to mention the fact that as owners we have essentially given the power to run the resorts as they see fit over to Disney. There’s no mechanism to object to the way they run things. Owners really have very little power. There was a lot of talk of potential lawsuits from the resorts being closed but that was mostly just fanboy chatter with no real legal merit. Disney did eventually push to open the DVC resorts early but that had way more to do with the glut of points accumulating vs any fear of member lawsuits.

That’s a good point.

They limited point usage...no matter what the policy was at that time...they limited facilities...haven’t even opened some at DVC locations...

And you know what they said?

Nothing.

 

[mmascari]

Whatever system is chosen for proof of vaccination will have to meet certain standards and safeguards; there's no way they would just take someone's word for it. No system is ever perfect - as long as what is chosen is reasonably reliable, that should meet legal standards. Highly effective vaccines are far superior at keeping people safe than any of the current mitigation efforts.

The current mitigation efforts were designed as a short-term solution, not a permanent one. Society needs to look forward to what will happen if COVID is still with us a year or so from now. Vaccine and health passports are already in the works, whether or not you agree with them. It will be up to our political process to decide whether they pass muster.

Um, that’s kind of the point. What’s the advantage a person gets because they have proof of vaccine? $50 worth, $100, $200, more? Add the fake proof to the vacation cost, it’s probably nothing in that context. Now you have someone without vaccine and without the stopgap measures.

You’re misreading this as current mitigations forever. Reduce the spread, reduce the mitigations. It’s always been that simple. It’s admittedly much harder today than it would have been 6 months ago, but the root problem hasn’t changed. There’s no good way to cheat it and reduce for some and not others early. It’s a guarantee cheaters will cheat the cheating to get the special privileges.

 

[GoofGoof]

Um, that’s kind of the point. What’s the advantage a person gets because they have proof of vaccine? $50 worth, $100, $200, more? Add the fake proof to the vacation cost, it’s probably nothing in that context. Now you have someone without vaccine and without the stopgap measures.

You’re misreading this as current mitigations forever. Reduce the spread, reduce the mitigations. It’s always been that simple. It’s admittedly much harder today than it would have been 6 months ago, but the root problem hasn’t changed. There’s no good way to cheat it and reduce for some and not others early. It’s a guarantee cheaters will cheat the cheating to get the special privileges.

I think plan A is definitely to reduce the spread through vaccination and that leads to reduction of mitigations. I think the concept of proof of vaccination is really a plan B for the worst case scenario where the vaccines aren’t fully successful due to lack of acceptance and use and we don’t reach full herd immunity.

If there are vaccine proof requirements there will also likely have to be some form of alternative for someone who medically cannot receive the vaccine. It starts to get really hard to figure out the logistics of how they would do that, but I imagine if there are some form of vaccine passports it will also be possible for people to get a medical exemption that would show they are cleared to not be vaccinated. Who really knows. I hope we never have to find out.