Changes in the "average guest" who visits WDW

GenerationX

Well-Known Member
Yes. And my apologies for the mega-post.

This is one of the biggest things I've noticed in my recently ended stint as a cast member, and I was about to start a big thread on this myself, but couldn't quite find the words for it. But the average WDW audience has shifted dramatically away from the stereotype of the average American family saving up from their big trip to Orlando, and far toward foreign guests, many (or most) of whom travel independently from tour groups. I think tour groups tend to draw more attention to themselves, but there are many, many guests who travel from other countries (predominantly Latin America) on their own. (And for the record, far from just Brazilians - I'm fluent in Spanish, and it seems like we get many more Central Americans and Argentinians than Brazilians).

In many ways, I think this change of audience is actually one of the greatest challenges facing WDW right now. While Disney sees this as an opportunity for a new market and increased attendance, it causes some problems for us as Disney fans who care about the original intentions of the resort. I don't mean that in a racist way at all - I have had both wonderful and unpleasant interactions with guests from every country - but there is no denying a basic major truth in the way Disney now operates:

Disney no longer sees American guests as their main target audience anymore. Disney fans on sites like this one see foreign guests as an annoying group disrupting the WDW experience for the main audience... but the truth is that they now ARE the main audience, and the fact that Disney caters to them more than to us is likely one of the primary sources of discontent with how the resort is being run.

Don't like the prices at the deluxe resorts? You're not alone. I handled countless merchandise transactions involving package delivery, and if the person I was speaking to was in American English, I could guess 9/10 times that the package was going to Pop, one of the All-Stars, or off-property... with the occasional moderate or DVC. If the guest was foreign, it was probably going to a deluxe. I have friends that work as concierge at two of our most expensive deluxe resorts... and it's not primarily Americans staying there. One told me how almost every time he picks up the phone he has to pass it to a CM that speaks Spanish, Indian, or Arabic.

Think TSRs are hard to book and overpriced off the dining plan? Or maybe you don't like the service? Well,
I have two friends that work at one of the most expensive and hard-to-book restaurants on property... and it's not Americans eating there. To the contrary, they say it's mostly international guests that plan far enough in advance to find a table for this particular restaurant. It also sounds as if the restaurant has trouble staffing themselves with waiters that are both sufficiently multilingual AND capable of providing the guest service required for a restaurant of this stature - all, of course, while being complacent with what Disney pays its table service waiters (HINT: not a lot).

Perhaps you think the merchandise is too expensive? Not to the Latin American guests that can afford that intercontinental flight to Disney World. If I tell them price of a $29.95 tshirt, they'll shrug and go off to grab four more. They'll spontaneously add on candy and drinks and keychains at the counter even when I'm ringing them up to the hundreds. I'm not sure if they're unaware of how much they're spending, whether our inflation is that bad, or if the Latin Americans that find their way up here are just particularly loaded. Don't know really.

Don't like the state of the Imagination pavilion? No Brazilian guest knows what a Dreamfinder is. Wish that Epcot attractions still had beautifully written scripts, and not "Nemo? Nemo!" over and over? Gotta keep the language simple. I would even guess that part of the reason Soarin' and TSMM see such inflated wait times is because their appeal is so international, and devoid of needing a background in American ideology and cultural references (see: Hall of Presidents, Country Bear Jamboree, or even Enchanted Tiki Room, Universe of Energy and Carousel of Progress).

The truth is, I think Disney loves guests like these. They pile merchandise onto the counter and shell out hundred dollar bills like you wouldn't believe. Honestly, as a cast member, I couldn't really dislike guests like these either. They are often very polite and friendly in one-and-one interactions, especially to any CMs who speak their language (like me). Despite what threads here might say to the contrary, annoying guests come in all nationalities. In reality, it's only Americans that have yanked my neck down by my pin lanyard, complained loudly about our prices, asked over and over if Tinker Bell is actually a man, or any number of other questions I'm not allowed to answer. (Though as I said earlier, I still love and am always thrilled to see American guests - just making a point that American guests are just as likely to be annoying as anyone else).

Beyond just prices though, I wonder just how deeply this shift in audience is impacting WDW, and what kind of relationship these guests have with WDW's legacy as a vacation resort. These are guests who have never seen an Imagination with a Dreamfinder, an Everest with a working yeti, Contemporary without a Bay Lake Tower, a Disney TSR restaurant without the dining plan. Most of these guests have never seen WDW before it became, in all honesty, the giant machine for processing vacations that it has become today.

One of the biggest impacts, IMO, has been on branding, and the way the resort presents itself. These guests don't come for a nuanced study of global culture and history, as presented through themed attractions. Any American guest, regardless of whether they came for the hundredth time or for their first, can walk through Main Street, or Liberty Square, or Frontierland and identify it with a collective part of our national consciousness. Old Key West, the Boardwalk, and Port Orleans Riverside remind us of historic places many of us have actually been to. So many of us are raised on a WDW built on, not on Disney branding, but on images and settings familiar to American culture.

So to inverse this: how many Brazilians have any emotional connection to an Old Southern antebellum mansion when they see one? Guests that travel from Latin America come for a different reason: to visit one of the only physical places in the world built on the power of Disney branding. They can find a world-class resort much closer to home, if that's what they were looking for; more than any expectation of premiere quality and design, what they really came to experience was the breadth of the Disney brand. And that's why Disney now builds hotels themed to Disney characters and movies instead of the old South.

In WDW shops, many of our kitchenware products, pirate swords, toy rifles, bubble toys, and other non-Disney branded merchandise have at least a decent chance with American guests. But among Latin American guests, it is ALL about the branding. Not to over-stereotype here, but the sheer image of a Disney character on a $29.95 toy seems to be enough to get them to buy it. Perhaps not surprising; for the difficulty of getting here from a place so distant, they probably want to load up on branded merch not available at home.

Guests from 5,000 miles away don't wanted idealized recreations of American history, they don't want fine silverware from Liberty Square, they may not want even want Epcot's living blueprint of the future. They want to see all the princesses on the parade float, to see the castle, and to buy their photo on Splash Mountain for $18.95.

So this ultimately, I think is the root for so many of the changes we're seeing in the WDW of today. Many of us complain about prices, and wonder who in their right mind is going to be willing to pay over $100 for a single day in the parks anymore, or who would pay a grand for a room at the Grand Floridian, or even $4.95 for a lollipop... well, maybe we're just thinking too much like Americans, raised on the value of our own currency. While we complain and wonder who would pay so much, perhaps we should acknowledge that these prices are not being set for us. If we complain that Disney has torn out a classic World Showcase attraction and replaced it with a ride based on a hit princess movie, remember that many guests value seeing those characters more than they value an educational experience. Honestly, as long as Disney continues to see these guests as more profitable customers than middle-class Americans, I'm not sure how we can expect this to change.
Very insightful post, MarkTwain! I'm not a fan of long posts, but I gladly read yours in its entirety. Your premise explains the current state of WDW better than any I've seen, and this sentence in particular nails it: "Most of these guests have never seen WDW before it became, in all honesty, the giant machine for processing vacations that it has become today." Well put.
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
Not E. Cardon Walker, I would presume.

Could be someone else with the same name. I know that if we have a 3rd kid, it will be named "E. Cardon". I'm not sure if we'll sign the birth certificate "E." or write out the formal "E period" (don't forgot the tweener "E dot" that can be used daily).

Watch with the audio turned off and see if you can correctly identify Card Walker. Hint: It is not the woman who starts speaking before the podium finishes its awkward mechanical rise.

 

71jason

Well-Known Member
Not E. Cardon Walker, I would presume.

I do love that dry British sense of humor. Literally LOLed at this one.

Parody (read as "fake") accounts are a huge part of Twitter. It's almost an art form. Among various Twitterers I follow are "the Disney Dragon"--the dragon that flew over the new Fantasyland media event--and "King Joffrey" from Game of Thrones--not an official show feed, just some GoT fanboi with a wry sense of humor. Twitter largely encourages this, unlike Facebook.

The fake Mr. Walker is one of the more insightful Disney commentators on Twitter--even if he and a certain Spirit seem to have a blood feud for reasons known only to them. I also appreciated his standing up to a certain lifestyler's deranged wife when she decided to engage in Twitter bullying last year. No idea who he is in real life, but seems to know his stuff.
 

Marijil

Well-Known Member
Yes. And my apologies for the mega-post.

This is one of the biggest things I've noticed in my recently ended stint as a cast member, and I was about to start a big thread on this myself, but couldn't quite find the words for it. But the average WDW audience has shifted dramatically away from the stereotype of the average American family saving up from their big trip to Orlando, and far toward foreign guests, many (or most) of whom travel independently from tour groups. I think tour groups tend to draw more attention to themselves, but there are many, many guests who travel from other countries (predominantly Latin America) on their own. (And for the record, far from just Brazilians - I'm fluent in Spanish, and it seems like we get many more Central Americans and Argentinians than Brazilians).

In many ways, I think this change of audience is actually one of the greatest challenges facing WDW right now. While Disney sees this as an opportunity for a new market and increased attendance, it causes some problems for us as Disney fans who care about the original intentions of the resort. I don't mean that in a racist way at all - I have had both wonderful and unpleasant interactions with guests from every country - but there is no denying a basic major truth in the way Disney now operates:

Disney no longer sees American guests as their main target audience anymore. Disney fans on sites like this one see foreign guests as an annoying group disrupting the WDW experience for the main audience... but the truth is that they now ARE the main audience, and the fact that Disney caters to them more than to us is likely one of the primary sources of discontent with how the resort is being run.

Don't like the prices at the deluxe resorts? You're not alone. I handled countless merchandise transactions involving package delivery, and if the person I was speaking to was in American English, I could guess 9/10 times that the package was going to Pop, one of the All-Stars, or off-property... with the occasional moderate or DVC. If the guest was foreign, it was probably going to a deluxe. I have friends that work as concierge at two of our most expensive deluxe resorts... and it's not primarily Americans staying there. One told me how almost every time he picks up the phone he has to pass it to a CM that speaks Spanish, Indian, or Arabic.

Think TSRs are hard to book and overpriced off the dining plan? Or maybe you don't like the service? Well,
I have two friends that work at one of the most expensive and hard-to-book restaurants on property... and it's not Americans eating there. To the contrary, they say it's mostly international guests that plan far enough in advance to find a table for this particular restaurant. It also sounds as if the restaurant has trouble staffing themselves with waiters that are both sufficiently multilingual AND capable of providing the guest service required for a restaurant of this stature - all, of course, while being complacent with what Disney pays its table service waiters (HINT: not a lot).

Perhaps you think the merchandise is too expensive? Not to the Latin American guests that can afford that intercontinental flight to Disney World. If I tell them price of a $29.95 tshirt, they'll shrug and go off to grab four more. They'll spontaneously add on candy and drinks and keychains at the counter even when I'm ringing them up to the hundreds. I'm not sure if they're unaware of how much they're spending, whether our inflation is that bad, or if the Latin Americans that find their way up here are just particularly loaded. Don't know really.

Don't like the state of the Imagination pavilion? No Brazilian guest knows what a Dreamfinder is. Wish that Epcot attractions still had beautifully written scripts, and not "Nemo? Nemo!" over and over? Gotta keep the language simple. I would even guess that part of the reason Soarin' and TSMM see such inflated wait times is because their appeal is so international, and devoid of needing a background in American ideology and cultural references (see: Hall of Presidents, Country Bear Jamboree, or even Enchanted Tiki Room, Universe of Energy and Carousel of Progress).

The truth is, I think Disney loves guests like these. They pile merchandise onto the counter and shell out hundred dollar bills like you wouldn't believe. Honestly, as a cast member, I couldn't really dislike guests like these either. They are often very polite and friendly in one-and-one interactions, especially to any CMs who speak their language (like me). Despite what threads here might say to the contrary, annoying guests come in all nationalities. In reality, it's only Americans that have yanked my neck down by my pin lanyard, complained loudly about our prices, asked over and over if Tinker Bell is actually a man, or any number of other questions I'm not allowed to answer. (Though as I said earlier, I still love and am always thrilled to see American guests - just making a point that American guests are just as likely to be annoying as anyone else).

Beyond just prices though, I wonder just how deeply this shift in audience is impacting WDW, and what kind of relationship these guests have with WDW's legacy as a vacation resort. These are guests who have never seen an Imagination with a Dreamfinder, an Everest with a working yeti, Contemporary without a Bay Lake Tower, a Disney TSR restaurant without the dining plan. Most of these guests have never seen WDW before it became, in all honesty, the giant machine for processing vacations that it has become today.

One of the biggest impacts, IMO, has been on branding, and the way the resort presents itself. These guests don't come for a nuanced study of global culture and history, as presented through themed attractions. Any American guest, regardless of whether they came for the hundredth time or for their first, can walk through Main Street, or Liberty Square, or Frontierland and identify it with a collective part of our national consciousness. Old Key West, the Boardwalk, and Port Orleans Riverside remind us of historic places many of us have actually been to. So many of us are raised on a WDW built on, not on Disney branding, but on images and settings familiar to American culture.

So to inverse this: how many Brazilians have any emotional connection to an Old Southern antebellum mansion when they see one? Guests that travel from Latin America come for a different reason: to visit one of the only physical places in the world built on the power of Disney branding. They can find a world-class resort much closer to home, if that's what they were looking for; more than any expectation of premiere quality and design, what they really came to experience was the breadth of the Disney brand. And that's why Disney now builds hotels themed to Disney characters and movies instead of the old South.

In WDW shops, many of our kitchenware products, pirate swords, toy rifles, bubble toys, and other non-Disney branded merchandise have at least a decent chance with American guests. But among Latin American guests, it is ALL about the branding. Not to over-stereotype here, but the sheer image of a Disney character on a $29.95 toy seems to be enough to get them to buy it. Perhaps not surprising; for the difficulty of getting here from a place so distant, they probably want to load up on branded merch not available at home.

Guests from 5,000 miles away don't wanted idealized recreations of American history, they don't want fine silverware from Liberty Square, they may not want even want Epcot's living blueprint of the future. They want to see all the princesses on the parade float, to see the castle, and to buy their photo on Splash Mountain for $18.95.

So this ultimately, I think is the root for so many of the changes we're seeing in the WDW of today. Many of us complain about prices, and wonder who in their right mind is going to be willing to pay over $100 for a single day in the parks anymore, or who would pay a grand for a room at the Grand Floridian, or even $4.95 for a lollipop... well, maybe we're just thinking too much like Americans, raised on the value of our own currency. While we complain and wonder who would pay so much, perhaps we should acknowledge that these prices are not being set for us. If we complain that Disney has torn out a classic World Showcase attraction and replaced it with a ride based on a hit princess movie, remember that many guests value seeing those characters more than they value an educational experience. Honestly, as long as Disney continues to see these guests as more profitable customers than middle-class Americans, I'm not sure how we can expect this to change.
This is one of the most thought provoking ...and depressing posts i've read here in 12 years
 

Miss Bella

Well-Known Member
Yes. And my apologies for the mega-post.

This is one of the biggest things I've noticed in my recently ended stint as a cast member, and I was about to start a big thread on this myself, but couldn't quite find the words for it. But the average WDW audience has shifted dramatically away from the stereotype of the average American family saving up from their big trip to Orlando, and far toward foreign guests, many (or most) of whom travel independently from tour groups. I think tour groups tend to draw more attention to themselves, but there are many, many guests who travel from other countries (predominantly Latin America) on their own. (And for the record, far from just Brazilians - I'm fluent in Spanish, and it seems like we get many more Central Americans and Argentinians than Brazilians).

In many ways, I think this change of audience is actually one of the greatest challenges facing WDW right now. While Disney sees this as an opportunity for a new market and increased attendance, it causes some problems for us as Disney fans who care about the original intentions of the resort. I don't mean that in a racist way at all - I have had both wonderful and unpleasant interactions with guests from every country - but there is no denying a basic major truth in the way Disney now operates:

Disney no longer sees American guests as their main target audience anymore. Disney fans on sites like this one see foreign guests as an annoying group disrupting the WDW experience for the main audience... but the truth is that they now ARE the main audience, and the fact that Disney caters to them more than to us is likely one of the primary sources of discontent with how the resort is being run.

Don't like the prices at the deluxe resorts? You're not alone. I handled countless merchandise transactions involving package delivery, and if the person I was speaking to was in American English, I could guess 9/10 times that the package was going to Pop, one of the All-Stars, or off-property... with the occasional moderate or DVC. If the guest was foreign, it was probably going to a deluxe. I have friends that work as concierge at two of our most expensive deluxe resorts... and it's not primarily Americans staying there. One told me how almost every time he picks up the phone he has to pass it to a CM that speaks Spanish, Indian, or Arabic.

Think TSRs are hard to book and overpriced off the dining plan? Or maybe you don't like the service? Well,
I have two friends that work at one of the most expensive and hard-to-book restaurants on property... and it's not Americans eating there. To the contrary, they say it's mostly international guests that plan far enough in advance to find a table for this particular restaurant. It also sounds as if the restaurant has trouble staffing themselves with waiters that are both sufficiently multilingual AND capable of providing the guest service required for a restaurant of this stature - all, of course, while being complacent with what Disney pays its table service waiters (HINT: not a lot).

Perhaps you think the merchandise is too expensive? Not to the Latin American guests that can afford that intercontinental flight to Disney World. If I tell them price of a $29.95 tshirt, they'll shrug and go off to grab four more. They'll spontaneously add on candy and drinks and keychains at the counter even when I'm ringing them up to the hundreds. I'm not sure if they're unaware of how much they're spending, whether our inflation is that bad, or if the Latin Americans that find their way up here are just particularly loaded. Don't know really.

Don't like the state of the Imagination pavilion? No Brazilian guest knows what a Dreamfinder is. Wish that Epcot attractions still had beautifully written scripts, and not "Nemo? Nemo!" over and over? Gotta keep the language simple. I would even guess that part of the reason Soarin' and TSMM see such inflated wait times is because their appeal is so international, and devoid of needing a background in American ideology and cultural references (see: Hall of Presidents, Country Bear Jamboree, or even Enchanted Tiki Room, Universe of Energy and Carousel of Progress).

The truth is, I think Disney loves guests like these. They pile merchandise onto the counter and shell out hundred dollar bills like you wouldn't believe. Honestly, as a cast member, I couldn't really dislike guests like these either. They are often very polite and friendly in one-and-one interactions, especially to any CMs who speak their language (like me). Despite what threads here might say to the contrary, annoying guests come in all nationalities. In reality, it's only Americans that have yanked my neck down by my pin lanyard, complained loudly about our prices, asked over and over if Tinker Bell is actually a man, or any number of other questions I'm not allowed to answer. (Though as I said earlier, I still love and am always thrilled to see American guests - just making a point that American guests are just as likely to be annoying as anyone else).

Beyond just prices though, I wonder just how deeply this shift in audience is impacting WDW, and what kind of relationship these guests have with WDW's legacy as a vacation resort. These are guests who have never seen an Imagination with a Dreamfinder, an Everest with a working yeti, Contemporary without a Bay Lake Tower, a Disney TSR restaurant without the dining plan. Most of these guests have never seen WDW before it became, in all honesty, the giant machine for processing vacations that it has become today.

One of the biggest impacts, IMO, has been on branding, and the way the resort presents itself. These guests don't come for a nuanced study of global culture and history, as presented through themed attractions. Any American guest, regardless of whether they came for the hundredth time or for their first, can walk through Main Street, or Liberty Square, or Frontierland and identify it with a collective part of our national consciousness. Old Key West, the Boardwalk, and Port Orleans Riverside remind us of historic places many of us have actually been to. So many of us are raised on a WDW built on, not on Disney branding, but on images and settings familiar to American culture.

So to inverse this: how many Brazilians have any emotional connection to an Old Southern antebellum mansion when they see one? Guests that travel from Latin America come for a different reason: to visit one of the only physical places in the world built on the power of Disney branding. They can find a world-class resort much closer to home, if that's what they were looking for; more than any expectation of premiere quality and design, what they really came to experience was the breadth of the Disney brand. And that's why Disney now builds hotels themed to Disney characters and movies instead of the old South.

In WDW shops, many of our kitchenware products, pirate swords, toy rifles, bubble toys, and other non-Disney branded merchandise have at least a decent chance with American guests. But among Latin American guests, it is ALL about the branding. Not to over-stereotype here, but the sheer image of a Disney character on a $29.95 toy seems to be enough to get them to buy it. Perhaps not surprising; for the difficulty of getting here from a place so distant, they probably want to load up on branded merch not available at home.

Guests from 5,000 miles away don't wanted idealized recreations of American history, they don't want fine silverware from Liberty Square, they may not want even want Epcot's living blueprint of the future. They want to see all the princesses on the parade float, to see the castle, and to buy their photo on Splash Mountain for $18.95.

So this ultimately, I think is the root for so many of the changes we're seeing in the WDW of today. Many of us complain about prices, and wonder who in their right mind is going to be willing to pay over $100 for a single day in the parks anymore, or who would pay a grand for a room at the Grand Floridian, or even $4.95 for a lollipop... well, maybe we're just thinking too much like Americans, raised on the value of our own currency. While we complain and wonder who would pay so much, perhaps we should acknowledge that these prices are not being set for us. If we complain that Disney has torn out a classic World Showcase attraction and replaced it with a ride based on a hit princess movie, remember that many guests value seeing those characters more than they value an educational experience. Honestly, as long as Disney continues to see these guests as more profitable customers than middle-class Americans, I'm not sure how we can expect this to change.

We were annual passholders 2011-2013. We visited three times a year. We always stayed deluxe and most of the time club level . I didn't noticed that many South Americans at the deluxe resorts or the club level lounges. So I'm not sure your theory about South Americans staying in deluxe resorts is accurate, but I definitely noticed them in the parks.

We just sailed on the Fantasy in January, and it seemed like 50% of the passengers were from South America. We also visited Universal. At times I felt like I was the only American in the Park. We stayed at Royal Pacific club level. There was some kind of Brazilian "The Voice" competition going on for little kids so there was a large contingency of South Americans at the resort. It was still primarily Americans in the Club level lounge.
 

jw24

Well-Known Member
Yes. And my apologies for the mega-post.

This is one of the biggest things I've noticed in my recently ended stint as a cast member, and I was about to start a big thread on this myself, but couldn't quite find the words for it. But the average WDW audience has shifted dramatically away from the stereotype of the average American family saving up from their big trip to Orlando, and far toward foreign guests, many (or most) of whom travel independently from tour groups. I think tour groups tend to draw more attention to themselves, but there are many, many guests who travel from other countries (predominantly Latin America) on their own. (And for the record, far from just Brazilians - I'm fluent in Spanish, and it seems like we get many more Central Americans and Argentinians than Brazilians).

In many ways, I think this change of audience is actually one of the greatest challenges facing WDW right now. While Disney sees this as an opportunity for a new market and increased attendance, it causes some problems for us as Disney fans who care about the original intentions of the resort. I don't mean that in a racist way at all - I have had both wonderful and unpleasant interactions with guests from every country - but there is no denying a basic major truth in the way Disney now operates:

Disney no longer sees American guests as their main target audience anymore. Disney fans on sites like this one see foreign guests as an annoying group disrupting the WDW experience for the main audience... but the truth is that they now ARE the main audience, and the fact that Disney caters to them more than to us is likely one of the primary sources of discontent with how the resort is being run.

Don't like the prices at the deluxe resorts? You're not alone. I handled countless merchandise transactions involving package delivery, and if the person I was speaking to was in American English, I could guess 9/10 times that the package was going to Pop, one of the All-Stars, or off-property... with the occasional moderate or DVC. If the guest was foreign, it was probably going to a deluxe. I have friends that work as concierge at two of our most expensive deluxe resorts... and it's not primarily Americans staying there. One told me how almost every time he picks up the phone he has to pass it to a CM that speaks Spanish, Indian, or Arabic.

Think TSRs are hard to book and overpriced off the dining plan? Or maybe you don't like the service? Well,
I have two friends that work at one of the most expensive and hard-to-book restaurants on property... and it's not Americans eating there. To the contrary, they say it's mostly international guests that plan far enough in advance to find a table for this particular restaurant. It also sounds as if the restaurant has trouble staffing themselves with waiters that are both sufficiently multilingual AND capable of providing the guest service required for a restaurant of this stature - all, of course, while being complacent with what Disney pays its table service waiters (HINT: not a lot).

Perhaps you think the merchandise is too expensive? Not to the Latin American guests that can afford that intercontinental flight to Disney World. If I tell them price of a $29.95 tshirt, they'll shrug and go off to grab four more. They'll spontaneously add on candy and drinks and keychains at the counter even when I'm ringing them up to the hundreds. I'm not sure if they're unaware of how much they're spending, whether our inflation is that bad, or if the Latin Americans that find their way up here are just particularly loaded. Don't know really.

Don't like the state of the Imagination pavilion? No Brazilian guest knows what a Dreamfinder is. Wish that Epcot attractions still had beautifully written scripts, and not "Nemo? Nemo!" over and over? Gotta keep the language simple. I would even guess that part of the reason Soarin' and TSMM see such inflated wait times is because their appeal is so international, and devoid of needing a background in American ideology and cultural references (see: Hall of Presidents, Country Bear Jamboree, or even Enchanted Tiki Room, Universe of Energy and Carousel of Progress).

The truth is, I think Disney loves guests like these. They pile merchandise onto the counter and shell out hundred dollar bills like you wouldn't believe. Honestly, as a cast member, I couldn't really dislike guests like these either. They are often very polite and friendly in one-and-one interactions, especially to any CMs who speak their language (like me). Despite what threads here might say to the contrary, annoying guests come in all nationalities. In reality, it's only Americans that have yanked my neck down by my pin lanyard, complained loudly about our prices, asked over and over if Tinker Bell is actually a man, or any number of other questions I'm not allowed to answer. (Though as I said earlier, I still love and am always thrilled to see American guests - just making a point that American guests are just as likely to be annoying as anyone else).

Beyond just prices though, I wonder just how deeply this shift in audience is impacting WDW, and what kind of relationship these guests have with WDW's legacy as a vacation resort. These are guests who have never seen an Imagination with a Dreamfinder, an Everest with a working yeti, Contemporary without a Bay Lake Tower, a Disney TSR restaurant without the dining plan. Most of these guests have never seen WDW before it became, in all honesty, the giant machine for processing vacations that it has become today.

One of the biggest impacts, IMO, has been on branding, and the way the resort presents itself. These guests don't come for a nuanced study of global culture and history, as presented through themed attractions. Any American guest, regardless of whether they came for the hundredth time or for their first, can walk through Main Street, or Liberty Square, or Frontierland and identify it with a collective part of our national consciousness. Old Key West, the Boardwalk, and Port Orleans Riverside remind us of historic places many of us have actually been to. So many of us are raised on a WDW built on, not on Disney branding, but on images and settings familiar to American culture.

So to inverse this: how many Brazilians have any emotional connection to an Old Southern antebellum mansion when they see one? Guests that travel from Latin America come for a different reason: to visit one of the only physical places in the world built on the power of Disney branding. They can find a world-class resort much closer to home, if that's what they were looking for; more than any expectation of premiere quality and design, what they really came to experience was the breadth of the Disney brand. And that's why Disney now builds hotels themed to Disney characters and movies instead of the old South.

In WDW shops, many of our kitchenware products, pirate swords, toy rifles, bubble toys, and other non-Disney branded merchandise have at least a decent chance with American guests. But among Latin American guests, it is ALL about the branding. Not to over-stereotype here, but the sheer image of a Disney character on a $29.95 toy seems to be enough to get them to buy it. Perhaps not surprising; for the difficulty of getting here from a place so distant, they probably want to load up on branded merch not available at home.

Guests from 5,000 miles away don't wanted idealized recreations of American history, they don't want fine silverware from Liberty Square, they may not want even want Epcot's living blueprint of the future. They want to see all the princesses on the parade float, to see the castle, and to buy their photo on Splash Mountain for $18.95.

So this ultimately, I think is the root for so many of the changes we're seeing in the WDW of today. Many of us complain about prices, and wonder who in their right mind is going to be willing to pay over $100 for a single day in the parks anymore, or who would pay a grand for a room at the Grand Floridian, or even $4.95 for a lollipop... well, maybe we're just thinking too much like Americans, raised on the value of our own currency. While we complain and wonder who would pay so much, perhaps we should acknowledge that these prices are not being set for us. If we complain that Disney has torn out a classic World Showcase attraction and replaced it with a ride based on a hit princess movie, remember that many guests value seeing those characters more than they value an educational experience. Honestly, as long as Disney continues to see these guests as more profitable customers than middle-class Americans, I'm not sure how we can expect this to change.

A very thoughtful post and an insightful one, indeed. I now think I understand better how and why there is so much divide and polarization of the fanbase on various Disney forums. I think because of everything you said, the way the parks are run and managed is being done at the expense of the loyal, hardcore fans in the States. Some will always praise and support every decision and if applicable, deny criticism and defend every decision Disney management makes but others will be critical because they could be legitimately angry and frustrated or.. they truly feel hurt, alienated, unwanted, backstabbed and betrayed. (Or maybe all of the above.) It's all because they feel they are not being valued and appreciated as customers because of the overwhelming appeal towards the international guests and if applicable, the one and done folks, the people who visit once and never again. Bottom line, there needs to be a fine balance and a continuous cycle of keeping your loyal and regulars happy while also appealing to your new and prospective customers that could possibly turn into a loyal customer later on and right now, Disney is not doing an adequate job doing just that.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
Foreign vs. domestic guest discussion aside, I also wonder if many of the changes are based on our living in more cynical and less wondrous times. Sorry for the cliches, but WDW (and certainly DL) was originally known for making the impossible seem possible. They made dead presidents talk, birds sing, ghosts appear, and they did it better than anyone else. But now we live in a world where movies and especially video games are so immersive and lifelike, it is there that the impossible is made even more possible. Disney's predictions of the future seem quaint in a world where we have a camera, television, video game and computer with access to all the known information of the universe - that also makes phone calls! - in our pocket (which we use to argue with strangers and laugh at videos of people getting whacked in the nards). So of course cater to smaller kids; they still have a sense of wonder. Granted, the parents that take them (myself included) are still suckers for the magic, but catering more to a younger crowd just very well be Disney's shot at hooking 'em while they're young, so they grow up taking trips to WDW as a "well duh, of course, we're going to WDW, don't we always? Doesn't everyone?" as they become grownups and parents too.

Now back to Mark Twain's insightful comment - his thoughts on foreign visitors spending more cash on souvenirs, staying more often in deluxe resorts, makes me wonder if we, the diehard Disney fans, are our own worst enemies, and our fandom is biting us in the @$$. Because those foreign visitors dropping serious cash, sure, maybe they have crazy "eff you" money. Maybe their homeland has a stronger currency than the U.S. Dollar. Or maybe, juuuuuust maybe, they're spending that kind of money because they know they might not ever be back. This could be their once-in-a-lifetime trip, so they're living large, and their extended family throws money at them, saying "get me a sweatshirt," "get your little niece mouse ears," "Gramps wants a wallet" "PIctures! Get lots and lots of pictures!" Meanwhile, many of us scrimp and save to keep going back, so we notice when things are changing (for the worse, usually, amirite?). I know lots of you prefer the Values, because you only need a place to sleep shower and drop a deuce. But admit it - if you knew you weren't going to be able to go back for another 10 years at least, would you spend a little more money, try to make the trip more special? Because we don't do that, maybe WDW is gearing itself more and more to those that do.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Foreign vs. domestic guest discussion aside, I also wonder if many of the changes are based on our living in more cynical and less wondrous times.
We live in a more cynical and wondrous time?

Sorry but you obviously don't remember the 1970s.

Nixon, Watergate, Vietnam War, gas shortages, Stagflation, rampant drug use, meaningless disco sex, urban decay, fear of global cooling (yes, global cooling), Three Mile Island, Love Canal.

Cynicism reigned supreme.

Compared to the 1970s, these are days of wine and roses.

That's part of what made WDW (opened in 1971) so special.

Of course, the 1980s were pretty awesome and so was WDW! :)
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
A more cynical and wondrous time?

Sorry but you obviously don't remember the 1970s.

Nixon, Watergate, Vietnam War, gas shortages, Stagflation, rampant drug use, meaningless disco sex, urban decay, fear of global cooling (yes, global cooling), Three Mile Island, Love Canal.

Compared to the 1970s, these are days of wine and roses.

That's part of what made WDW (opened in 1971) so special.

Of course, the 1980s were pretty awesome and so was WDW! :)
The idea that the past was a more optimistic time is a reoccurring concept in popular culture.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
The idea that the past was a more optimistic time is a reoccurring concept in popular culture.
Any year has good and bad but some periods are better or worse than others.

In my lifetime, today is somewhere in the middle.

Overall, the 1980s and 1990s were much better than the 1970s (and better than today).

At the time, my generation thought the 1980s were similar to what we thought the 1950s must have been like for that generation. It was kind of scary but I recall some wearing ties that their dads had worn in the 1950s, and looking pretty stylish too!

Hey, but the 1970s started giving us home electronics for the first time! (Anybody remember Simon?)

If you were wealthy enough, you even had a mobile phone in your car!

And I had a serious Space Invaders habit for a while.

By the end of the 1970s, I was posting and reading messages on that decade's equivalent of the Internet. :)
 
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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Returning to what I posted earlier on this thread about the biggest change I've seen in the average guest, @ChrisFL is right when he posts here that it's a "stroller epidemic".

Seriously, in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, strollers were the exception, not the norm.

It wasn't that long ago that WDW was targeted for families with older children.

Now, WDW has been turned into one big kiddie park.

Heck, the "New" Fantasyland is aimed at the diaper brigade.
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
Could be someone else with the same name. I know that if we have a 3rd kid, it will be named "E. Cardon". I'm not sure if we'll sign the birth certificate "E." or write out the formal "E period" (don't forgot the tweener "E dot" that can be used daily).

Watch with the audio turned off and see if you can correctly identify Card Walker. Hint: It is not the woman who starts speaking before the podium finishes its awkward mechanical rise.



Was Epcot built in 3 years? Did he say they broke ground 3 years to the day of opening ceremony?
 

71jason

Well-Known Member
Seriously, in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, strollers were the exception, not the norm.

It wasn't that long ago that WDW was targeted for families with older children.

Now, WDW has been turned into one big kiddie park.

I think that's a big part of it. But I think the strollers (and the ECVs) represent the turn toward a "commando" mentality. Which I think ties directly into rising prices. As WDW cost more and more, it became every guest's goal to see everything, open to close. Of course, the invention of FastPass fed this cyclically. Suddenly kids were going 14 hour, and you parents need a home base bigger than a locker for a day's worth of supplies. The idea of me having a stroller when I visited at age 9 would have been laughable in 1980, but it seems almost common now. Just like WDW invented the concept of meet-and-greets, for better or worse, they also unofficially pushed the stroller market.
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
Was Epcot built in 3 years? Did he say they broke ground 3 years to the day of opening ceremony?

That seemed about right to me. I lived in an east side suburb of Tampa for many years and EPCOT was big news during the entirety of the project. But, I was a kid (born in November of 1969). So, I looked it up and apparently ground was broke for EPCOT in May of 1979, so a little more than 3 years is correct.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
We live in a more cynical and wondrous time?

Sorry but you obviously don't remember the 1970s.

Nixon, Watergate, Vietnam War, gas shortages, Stagflation, rampant drug use, meaningless disco sex, urban decay, fear of global cooling (yes, global cooling), Three Mile Island, Love Canal.

Cynicism reigned supreme.

Compared to the 1970s, these are days of wine and roses.

That's part of what made WDW (opened in 1971) so special.

Of course, the 1980s were pretty awesome and so was WDW! :)
In the 70s nationwide cynicism was just starting to take root. Today it is ubiquitous.
 

Skippy's Pal

Well-Known Member
We live in a more cynical and wondrous time?

Sorry but you obviously don't remember the 1970s.

Nixon, Watergate, Vietnam War, gas shortages, Stagflation, rampant drug use, meaningless disco sex, urban decay, fear of global cooling (yes, global cooling), Three Mile Island, Love Canal.

Cynicism reigned supreme.

Compared to the 1970s, these are days of wine and roses.

That's part of what made WDW (opened in 1971) so special.

Of course, the 1980s were pretty awesome and so was WDW! :)


Actually, in a very real way, ANYTIME prior to 9/11 now seems like the "days of wine and roses," to say nothing of a certain level of innocence.
 

copcarguyp71

Well-Known Member
I've theorized on this for a bit and I believe Spirit has mentioned it in passing as well.

While the numbers for WDW have been steady, and MK especially, I wonder if we're not just seeing a difference in the kinds of attendance we're seeing in the parks.

For example, instead of having individual families with kids visiting every few years, who keep up the attendance, it seems like we're seeing a lot more tour groups from Brazil and Argentina, the cheerleaders/twirlers, pop warner football, band competitions, Star Wars weekends, Food and Wine Festival (to bring out the locals), etc.

My thought on this is, people often say that WDW doesn't need to change things, because their attendance remains higher than other parks, but is it because of their quality, or just the special deals that all of these other groups are getting?

I have thought the same thing as well. I wonder what sort of "out of country" deals they offer and how many of those increased numbers are due to specials offered to Canada, Latin America and Europe.

I know we have pulled back on the frequency of trips to the world as have several of my friends who were previously Disneyphiles. Not that I have finger on the my pulse of a huge cross section of the country or anything but among my group of friends who previously vacationed frequently at the world we have pretty much all resigned ourselves to going much less frequently than we had in past years. I have to agree that if my own little clique is any indication that frequent fliers in the continental US would be on the decline and that the numbers must be coming from elsewhere. I know when we were down at the world in September that many times while waiting in the queues the people in front of or behind us were either from Latin America or French Canadians. Not that they were imposing or even rude in any way but we did take notice more than any other previous trip that we seemed in the minority.
 

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