Captain Marvel 2: "The Marvels" -- Nov 10, 2023 Theatrical Release

[_caleb]

That I've got no answer for. I just know when you go and look at movies with the most reshoots, the majority of them were not good films. And honestly I could see that making sense. I mean, the theory would be it was shot, started to be put together, and major parts weren't working at all. So, there was a need to completely change things, but instead of having the months and months to write and storyboard, you real quick need to switch it all up to something totally new.

Now, there are some where it came out great, so I don't think it's a steadfast rule that "Tons of reshoots means it's going to be awful", but I do see why that would give some concern.

Part of the reason Marvel may have become particularly reshoot-heavy might be Kevin Feige's approach to producing, which is reported to rely heavily on post-production:

“Kevin’s real superpower, his genius, has always been in postproduction and getting his hands on movies and making sure that they finished strongly” [SOURCE]

Basically, he provides a lesser-known director with tons of guidance on the front end, gives them plenty of creative input in the process, and then asserts a great deal of control on the final product through reshoots, special effects, and other postproduction elements.

This has been the pattern for all of Marvel's films-- those that were mega blockbusters AND the recent box office duds. The difference (if reports and Bob Iger are to be believed), is that with the recent duds, Feige may have been spread too thin to really work his magic.

 

[_caleb]

Too often reshoots, or bad editing of reshoots, can be distracting and take you out of the scene.

One of my all-time favorites is Auntie Mame. But when I got the Blu-Ray a decade or so ago, I can't tell you how disturbed I was to notice in the patio scene at Upson Downs that Mame's cocktail napkin appears and disappears from cut to cut. When Claude tells her his daquiri's are made with a "secret ingredient" he learned from a native down in Havana, Mame has a cocktail napkin in her hand, but a second later when he leans in to coo "honeeey" in her ear, the cocktail napkin is gone. Then it reappears a moment later. Disturbing! And it mars a piece of truly great art.

Do you think that continuity error is an indication of reshoots? Or just (accidentally poor) editing of multiple takes of the scene?

The way I understand it, a reshoot typically entails calling cast and crews back after production has been wrapped. Did Auntie Mame require reshoots?

 

[Phroobar]

Too often reshoots, or bad editing of reshoots, can be distracting and take you out of the scene.

One of my all-time favorites is Auntie Mame. But when I got the Blu-Ray a decade or so ago, I can't tell you how disturbed I was to notice in the patio scene at Upson Downs that Mame's cocktail napkin appears and disappears from cut to cut. When Claude tells her his daquiri's are made with a "secret ingredient" he learned from a native down in Havana, Mame has a cocktail napkin in her hand, but a second later when he leans in to coo "honeeey" in her ear, the cocktail napkin is gone. Then it reappears a moment later. Disturbing! And it mars a piece of truly great art.

Didn't you know that Rosalind Russell was skilled magician? She loved card tricks and slight of hand. Never play poker with her.

 

[TP2000]

Do you think that continuity error is an indication of reshoots? Or just (accidentally poor) editing of multiple takes of the scene?

The way I understand it, a reshoot typically entails calling cast and crews back after production has been wrapped. Did Auntie Mame require reshoots?

I am assuming all those cocktails used on set weren't just apple juice and lemon water. At least I hope not.

I would love to think that Auntie Mame required a lot of reshoots because of that.

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

I was on the MCU Reddit the other day and couldn't believe how many people there are convinced the only reason this thing tanked was because of woman hating incels. Talk about being detached from reality.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Why listen to criticism when you can just yell and blame people. They're no better than youtubers running nonstop hate videos.

 

[_caleb]

I think it was tanked by negative word of mouth from people pre-disposed to criticize the film for having female and minority protagonists.

The reason I think this is that the majority of "criticism" I've read here had very little to do with the film itself (and was, in fact, offered by people who had not seen the film) and much more to do with perceived social motivations.

 

[DKampy]

I think it was tanked by negative word of mouth from people pre-disposed to criticize the film for having female and minority protagonists.

The reason I think this is that the majority of "criticism" I've read here had very little to do with the film itself (and was, in fact, offered by people who had not seen the film) and much more to do with perceived social motivations.

I agree… just to add… It also was the Brie Larson factor…. She has been the undeserved target of the internet rage community…who I am starting to believe been loud enough to convince the gen pop to listen to them

 

[TP2000]

I think it was tanked by negative word of mouth from people pre-disposed to criticize the film for having female and minority protagonists.

The reason I think this is that the majority of "criticism" I've read here had very little to do with the film itself (and was, in fact, offered by people who had not seen the film) and much more to do with perceived social motivations.

On a global scale? That pre-disposed criticism convinced two Billion potential consumers in the USA, Europe, Asia, South America, and Australasia to stay home and not see this movie? And a mega-budget global marketing campaign from Disney and a $275 Million production budget was not powerful enough to override message board chit chat?

Who knew we had the power to control the entire planet's free consumers making individual choices with their wallets?!?

 

[_caleb]

On a global scale? That pre-disposed criticism convinced two Billion potential consumers in the USA, Europe, Asia, South America, and Australasia to stay home and not see this movie? And a mega-budget global marketing campaign from Disney and a $275 Million production budget was not powerful enough to override message board chit chat?

Who knew we had the power to control the entire planet's free consumers making individual choices with their wallets?!?

View attachment 759365

Yes. Word of mouth can sink or swim a film—globally.

And it happens that the particular word of mouth around Ms. Marvel and The Marvels could also align with international conservative and anti-American sentiments.

 

[spacemt354]

I think it was tanked by negative word of mouth from people pre-disposed to criticize the film for having female and minority protagonists.

The reason I think this is that the majority of "criticism" I've read here had very little to do with the film itself (and was, in fact, offered by people who had not seen the film) and much more to do with perceived social motivations.

That's definitely part of it but hardly the primary reason for its failure. The reality is the MCU does not have the tidal wave effect that it previously did. Moreover, post-pandemic the gen population is more selective when it comes to what films to see in theaters vs waiting for streaming.

In the case of the MCU, there's been so much content released since 2021 and seemingly directionless to the general pop that is is just 'another' film rather than one that is required viewing to follow the MCU story like Phase 3 especially was.

So while some angry Youtubers may have swayed the narrative for people on the fence, it didn't work for films such as Black Panther 2 which had female and minority protagonists. The steep decline in box office therefore is more correlated with those in the general pop who saw the trailers and probably said it looks skippable, therefore didn't go.

 

[TP2000]

Yes. Word of mouth can sink or swim a film—globally.

And it happens that the particular word of mouth around Ms. Marvel and The Marvels could also align with international conservative and anti-American sentiments.

So, just to review...

Despite a $275 Million production budget and a $100+ Million global marketing campaign from the planet's most successful entertainment company, Internet chit chat by sexist comic book fans doomed The Marvels at the global box office.

I just don't think that can explain its global flop status. Maybe that chit chat and message board criticism took off 5% or 10% of the potential box office, I could believe that. But I can't believe it was responsible for any more than that. If any.

 

[_caleb]

That's definitely part of it but hardly the primary reason for its failure. The reality is the MCU does not have the tidal wave effect that it previously did. Moreover, post-pandemic the gen population is more selective when it comes to what films to see in theaters vs waiting for streaming.

In the case of the MCU, there's been so much content released since 2021 and seemingly directionless to the general pop that is is just 'another' film rather than one that is required viewing to follow the MCU story like Phase 3 especially was.

So while some angry Youtubers may have swayed the narrative for people on the fence, it didn't work for films such as Black Panther 2 which had female and minority protagonists. The steep decline in box office therefore is more correlated with those in the general pop who saw the trailers and probably said it looks skippable, therefore didn't go.

I hear you, and I agree that there are multiple factors at play. Negative word of mouth on this one seemed (from my corner of the internet) to be particularly strong and spread far and wide. Not just YouTubers (who have a MUCH bigger influence than many here seem to think), but it became something of a theme within political and social discourse.

The tidal wave effect may indeed not be there anymore, and I’m interested in why that is— what’s changed. We have discussed this a lot in the box office all the threads. The one “critique” I don’t believe is “it just wasn’t good.” If few went to go see it, how do people have opinions about the film’s quality?

 

[_caleb]

So, just to review...

Despite a $275 Million production budget and a $100+ Million global marketing campaign from the planet's most successful entertainment company, Internet chit chat by sexist comic book fans doomed The Marvels at the global box office.

I just don't think that can explain its global flop status. Maybe that chit chat and message board criticism took off 5% or 10% of the potential box office, I could believe that. But I can't believe it was responsible for any more than that. If any.

I mean, you haven’t seen the film but seem to have pretty strong (if uninformed) opinions about it.

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

Yeah, come on people, face reality. The movie had middling critical reviews. Awful trailers and very little buzz.

 

[TP2000]

I mean, you haven’t seen the film but seem to have pretty strong (if uninformed) opinions about it.

I don't have any opinion about the movie itself, and I know almost nothing about the plot or backstory or purpose. I just took one look at the movie poster and instantly had opinions about the physical attractiveness of its stars.

If I was making a superhero movie for teenage boys and young men, I would definitely have chosen different actresses. Because 90% of teenage boys and young men like to look at women who are very pretty, with perky and fun personalities. Young women who are like cheerleaders, popular It Girls, Rachel from Friends, Taylor Swift, Barbie, etc. And I would have made their characters more like Charlies Angels instead of whatever it is they're supposed to be in the movie.

It seems like a really dumb move on Marvel's part to choose the actresses and character attributes that they did for this mega-budget movie for teenage boys and young men. And so, for me at least, the global box office bomb it instantly became was not surprising to me.

And that's just by Googling up the first few images of the movie and its stars.

The global box office speaks for itself louder than I could.

 

[spacemt354]

I hear you, and I agree that there are multiple factors at play. Negative word of mouth on this one seemed (from my corner of the internet) to be particularly strong and spread far and wide. Not just YouTubers (who have a MUCH bigger influence than many here seem to think), but it became something of a theme within political and social discourse.

The tidal wave effect may indeed not be there anymore, and I’m interested in why that is— what’s changed. We have discussed this a lot in the box office all the threads. The one “critique” I don’t believe is “it just wasn’t good.” If few went to go see it, how do people have opinions about the film’s quality?

I'm well aware of the influence of Youtubers, but are you suggesting that they have successfully swayed the general population from critically thinking themselves? I think more often than not they are preaching to a choir that was unlikely to see the film in the first place, and may have swayed a few on the fence.

If you're interested in what changed with regard to the tidal wave effect, for me (an avid fan of the MCU Phases 1-3) it was the over saturation of content with little payoff. There are too many subplots, misc characters, and frankly boring TV shows that it became a chore rather than a hobby to keep up with. Having a max of 6-7 hours per year of content to keep up with was much easier than Phase 4 which had more hours of content than Phase 1-3 combined.

I can't speak to the critiques that you are referring to as I don't review films I haven't seen. But I can say that trailers and premises of films that don't look interesting do influence me from going to see those films. In those cases I'd rather wait for it on Disney+ that I'm already paying for.

 

[_caleb]

Yeah, come on people, face reality. The movie had middling critical reviews. Awful trailers and very little buzz.

I’m here, and I live in reality. The discussion is around why the film had (in your opinion) “awful trailers” and/or “very little buzz.”

“Nobody liked it but nobody saw it” doesn’t seem to make much sense unless word of mouth played a big part, right?

 

[Hawkeye_2018]

Yep. I was as big a MCU fan as anyone during phase 3 and still had no interest in this one. Had no interest in the last Antman either.

 

[DKampy]

I don't have any opinion about the movie itself, and I know almost nothing about the plot or backstory or purpose. I just took one look at the movie poster and instantly had opinions about the physical attractiveness of its stars.

If I was making a superhero movie for teenage boys and young men, I would definitely have chosen different actresses. Because 90% of teenage boys and young men like to look at women who are very pretty, with perky and fun personalities. Young women who are like cheerleaders, popular It Girls, Rachel from Friends, Taylor Swift, Barbie, etc. And I would have made their characters more like Charlies Angels instead of whatever it is they're supposed to be in the movie.

It seems like a really dumb move on Marvel's part to choose the actresses and character attributes that they did for this mega-budget movie for teenage boys and young men. And so, for me at least, the global box office bomb it instantly became was not surprising to me.

And that's just by Googling up the first few images of the movie and its stars.

The global box office speaks for itself louder than I could.

Wow….that is the issue right there… You have an opinion on the movie cause the looks of the actresses… and one I disagree with… Iman Vellani is completely adorable as Ms Marvel… and as Straight Male… Brie Larson is smoking