Captain Marvel 2: "The Marvels" -- Nov 10, 2023 Theatrical Release

[Casper Gutman]

Baseless grudge?
That directive came from Disney when they purchases Marvel because they didn't own the movie rights to Fantastic Four and Fox was making most of the profits from that franchise. Disney decided that if they are going to do the work and create some great new stories, let make them for a franchise that we have the rights to (Inhumans) and can actually make some movies and money on.

Kind of like when Walt stopped making Oswald content (his main character) when Universal had the rights. Walt moved his energy to a new character he controlled, Mickey Mouse.

The directive is widely known to have been Perlmutter's. I've never seen a single credible claim to the contrary.

Why Marvel Comics Didn't Publish the Fantastic Four for 3 Years

Today, Marvel Comics announced that they would be publishing a new Fantastic Four monthly series beginning in August -- the first of the sort in three years. Here's a history of how Bleeding Cool broke the story on why there wasn't one -- and found all sorts of implications.

bleedingcool.com

It’s Tragic and Disappointing That Marvel Is Canceling Fantastic Four

It was likely due to petty film-licensing squabbles.

www.vulture.com

Marvel’s dealings with Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four are a mess right now

Marvel’s dealings with Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four are a mess right now

www.avclub.com

Please provide evidence for your claim, otherwise it seems very much like a lie.

 

[TP2000]

The Hollywood Reporter just used the B Word to describe The Marvels!

But don't worry Mr. Gutman, it wasn't the sexist B Word. It was just the financial B Word.

Box Office Bomb: ‘The Marvels’ Opens to $47M in New Low for Marvel Studios

The sequel also faltered overseas, where it debuted to $63.3 million for a global start of $110 million compared to nearly $190 million for 'Captain Marvel' in 2019.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

Baseless grudge?
That directive came from Disney when they purchases Marvel because they didn't own the movie rights to Fantastic Four and Fox was making most of the profits from that franchise. Disney decided that if they are going to do the work and create some great new stories, let make them for a franchise that we have the rights to (Inhumans) and can actually make some movies and money on.

Kind of like when Walt stopped making Oswald content (his main character) when Universal had the rights. Walt moved his energy to a new character he controlled, Mickey Mouse.

You’re understanding of both is incorrect.

Walt continued to abide by his contract and produce Oswald cartoons. The last Disney produced Oswald short premiered just two months before Steamboat Willie in September 1928. This was also after the silent versions of The Gallopin’ Gaucho and Plane Crazy had been completed.

 

[TP2000]

From The Hollywood Reporter article, males made up 61% of the audience for The Marvels this weekend.

It seems the women of America aren't willing to support movies with inclusive stories of female empowerment. But thank goodness the men picked up some of their slack, or else the box office for The Marvels would be even worse!

"Word of mouth is killing The Marvels, which is only the third MCU title to receive a B CinemaScore from audiences after Eternals and Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantamania. The vast majority of MCU releases have earned some variation of an A. Its Rotten Tomatoes critics’ score of 62 percent is likewise on the lower end. Males made up the majority of ticket buyers, or 61 percent."

Box Office Bomb: ‘The Marvels’ Opens to $47M in New Low for Marvel Studios

The sequel also faltered overseas, where it debuted to $63.3 million for a global start of $110 million compared to nearly $190 million for 'Captain Marvel' in 2019.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[TP2000]

And they are making movies with tentpole production budgets and marketing campaigns for TV sized talent and characters.

You don’t spend “Titanic” money on “The Love Boat” movie.

Is it bad that when I read that I thought "Ooh, I'd go see The Love Boat movie! I want to see that!"

That's bad, isn't it?

On the flip side, I got the same immediate gut reaction of "I want to see that!" that I did the moment the neighborhood kids told me last June there was going to be a Barbie movie. I was immediately all in on seeing Barbie, just as I am immediately all in on The Love Boat movie. Funny how cultural zeitgeist works. When you know, you know.

 

[Joel]

Honestly, I don’t really understand why The Marvels is going to bomb. Everything about the movie looks to me just like the rest of “classic” MCU that always sold so well - humor, character interactions, some ill defined “bad guy” that needs to be stopped and some action set pieces. It seems to come down to I guess women/diverse leads being the issue? That just seems so odd to me, especially after Black Panther’s success so I dunno.

Maybe some movies employed the formula far more effectively than others?
Maybe people are tired of the formula?
Maybe people are far more willing to watch a formulaic film with RDJ, Evans, or Pratt than anyone in The Marvels?
Maybe they just don't care about these particular characters nearly as much?

No, the answer must be audience bigotry -- even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

[MrPromey]

Cut scenes are not part of the cinematic text! You seem to be really struggling to make this Marvel’s fault. I suspect you thought it happened because people who complain about the M-She-U pretend it did because the actual text of the films provides very little support for thier arguments. Now, I’m NOT saying you’re one of those people, but it’s very easy for anyone to accept bad faith arguments when they’re so prevalent in the discourse. That’s why clarity and demanding specific examples is so important.

I had a very long reply for you - even by my standards.

To be frank, though, I've gotten drawn into a discussion I never even wanted to have.

I don't even know what cinematic text is. I tried to google it to be sure I understood what you were getting at and all I could find were tutorials on how to do special effects for the titles of movies in Premier and After Effects.

Things I've said have been picked apart and I've found myself having to defend myself on things I don't even care about because others feel it's important and it matters and for me it isn't and it doesn't.

I'm that way about Disney proper so I get it but I don't feel anything one way or the other for Marvel. I'm not interested in attacking this corporate subsidy or blaming this souless business divisoin of Disney for a position that as a business, I doubt Marvel, collectively even has nor am I interested in defending its honor or the whole of its ouput, either.

I simply don't care.

To that end, I apprecate you extending me the grace of stating you were talking about how easially the issues of things get muddied and being clear you weren't trying to implicate me as being the problem or even intentially on the side of the problem, as you see it.

For this movie, I liked the early trailers when people were finding fault. The boxoffice predictions and Disney's hail mary trailer killed my expectations.

My personal stake in all of this was non-existant so I went anyway becuse it's not like I've never paid to see a movie I ended up thinking was bad before.

I liked the movie. It wasn't Skakespear-in-spadex but I wasn't expecting it to be.

I didn't care for the first movie* but my sensebilities were not trampled by it the way they apparently were for a lot of other people. I was simply making a point that I think it would be hard to find that kind of fault with this one.

Some of the people involved in the first one seemed to want to send a message. The public at large had a lot to say about that. It seems like they listened to all sides of the fallout when making this one.

It's a shame this one seems likely destined to fail.

I don't think that's going to be due to a single factor and movies that I thought were far worse have done way better than this is shaping up to.

I think I've said everything I want to in this discussion. I realize saying to people "It was fun - you should give it a chance and see instead of just grumping about how it's a flop - see it and then tell us if you thought it was bad" probably isn't going to change anyone's mind but as someone who was back and forth in the discussion before it came out, I thought providing my opinion after, especially having expressed doubt before going into it, might be a different perspective from the usual crowd that most people who've been here for a while could have predicted the opinions of six months ago in one direction or the other.

Have you seen it yet?

I'd be interested in a detailed review about what did and didn't work in it for you as a more passionate fan who concerns themselves with the source material.

Oh, and for anyone curious about the clip we were talking about, here it is for your own context. To be clear, it was released as a deleted/extended scene.

EDIT: I gather from comments you've made after your response to me now that you've seen it so if there's a review in there somewhere and I missed it, I'd appreciate a point to it.

*I didn't like Thor Dark World, either. I didn't like Quantimania or Eternals. Wasn't a fan of Multiverse of Madness. Black Widow was a let-down but I think that's because I had to wait for another year and a half to finally see it and it was part of the first wave of movies going back to theaters so there was a degree of hype in my own mind for going to see it that it couldn't live up to. If I'm being honest, I really didn't think the first Thor movie was that awesome, either... I feel like I have to point all of that out because when I just say I didn't like Captain Marvel by itself, further discussion always has people trying to brand me as a misogynist either directly or indirectly - I know you're not saying that and have gone out of your way to be clear there but that doesn't mean someone isn't going to come along after and try to, here.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

There are parts to this movie that I cannot believe got the green light... without going into detail but to say

Spoiler: What the Heck?

Is this a super hero movie or is it a musical? The movie was already facing strong headwinds and someone thought, "hey you know hat this move needs? A musical number!

That was one of the best parts of the movie though and got great reaction in theater was in

 

[TheMaxRebo]

And they are making movies with tentpole production budgets and marketing campaigns for TV sized talent and characters.

You don’t spend “Titanic” money on “The Love Boat” movie.

That is a huge issue for Disney beyond MCU - including their animated movies. They can't spend $250m+ on every movie they make

 

[jrice]

That is a huge issue for Disney beyond MCU - including their animated movies. They can't spend $250m+ on every movie they make

Sure you can. Look at the all the movies they made from phase one to three. All expensive but made money. This new phase of the M-She-U is garbage and bad writing. The character development is terrible and these “C” level characters are not wanted by the fans.

We know Disney and Marvel are pushing an agenda that is not working. They have made no money on their movies in over a year and this adding up to make up a big loss. Please stop Kevin F.!

 

[Casper Gutman]

Sure you can. Look at the all the movies they made from phase one to three. All expensive but made money. This new phase of the M-She-U is garbage and bad writing. The character development is terrible and these “C” level characters are not wanted by the fans.

We know Disney and Marvel are pushing an agenda that is not working. They have made no money on their movies in over a year and this adding up to make up a big loss. Please stop Kevin F.!

Ah, an honest to goodness M-She-U!

I’d love some details on why the “character development is terrible.” And while I can’t save the box office, I can say THIS comic and M-She-U fan definitely wants Ms Marvel, Monica Rambeau, the new Hawkeye and new Black Widow. Captain Marvel I can take or leave, but the others are great.

 

[Willmark]

That was one of the best parts of the movie though and got great reaction in theater was in

Apparently not enough to save the movie at the box office.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Apparently not enough to save the movie at the box office.

Are we gonna reply to everyone saying they liked the movie in whole or in part with, “BUT THE BOX OFFICE?”

The trailer for Snyder’s Netflix sci-fi “epic” is out today, and I’ll take brightly colored sci-fi nonsense like a singing planet any day over that self-serious garbage.

 

[jrice]

Are we gonna reply to everyone saying they liked the movie in whole or in part with, “BUT THE BOX OFFICE?”

The trailer for Snyder’s Netflix sci-fi “epic” is out today, and I’ll take brightly colored sci-fi nonsense like a singing planet any day over that self-serious garbage.

Disney is a business to make money. Their movies are not making money and merchandise sales are in the toilet. You are the few that like these characters and that is totally fine…for Disney+. Not the box office. This has a snowball effect on merch and the parks. Be careful what you wish for. Disney has to cater to the masses and not the 10%.

 

[Willmark]

Are we gonna reply to everyone saying they liked the movie in whole or in part with, “BUT THE BOX OFFICE?”

Point being that the movie had a lot of issues to overcome. Adding a

Spoiler: Yeah…

song and dance number

likely wasn’t the best move. It’s not like those have been popular for decades (largely.)

It can be viewed as the greatest scene in cinema if people want to regard it as such, the most enjoyable part of the movie or anything in between. The fact it is being savaged/commented across the web as indicative of one of the things wrong with the movie and a polarizing point. Simply search it out on X or the web in general.

And I’m willing to bet it’s not landing wit the would-be movie goers that are needed to save this film at wait for it: at the box office.

And lastly those of us who were skeptical of this movie? We’re proven right thus far. You wanted examples repeatedly in this thread that is a concrete example that people are citing as to why they dislike it. If you and others like it? Great not dissuading you. At the same time it’s a valid dislike of the movie whether you accept that or not.

 

[Phroobar]

So the Young Avengers will sink faster than the Titanic?

 

[Casper Gutman]

Point being that the movie had a lot of issues to overcome. Adding a

Spoiler: Yeah…

song and dance number

likely wasn’t the best move. It’s not like those have been popular for decades (largely.)

It can be viewed as the greatest scene in cinema if people want to regard it as such, the most enjoyable part of the movie or anything in between. The fact it is being savaged/commented across the web as indicative of one of the things wrong with the movie and a polarizing point. Simply search it out on X or the web in general.

And I’m willing to bet it’s not landing wit the would-be movie goers that are needed to save this film at wait for it: at the box office.

And lastly those of us who were skeptical of this movie? We’re proven right thus far. You wanted examples repeatedly in this thread that is a concrete example that people are citing as to why they dislike it. If you and others like it? Great not dissuading you. At the same time it’s a valid dislike of the movie whether you accept that or not.

I have no doubt X doesn’t like it - it’s going to really upset the kind of people who say “M-She-U.” It’s comic book goofy in the best way, the kind of thing Lee and Kirby would have dreamed up, and a lot of even the more negative mainstream reviewers liked it and wanted more of that type of absurdity. In a world where the comically self-serious recent Batman was a hit, yeah, it’s clear that a lot of folks want their comic book movies to assure audiences they’re big grown-ups. But I was always the kind of guy who thought Punisher and Spawn were a lot more childish than Lockjaw the teleporting bulldog.

And no, it isn’t the kind of actual criticism folks here have been asking for. We’re talking about actual problems with the quality of the film - editing problems, writing issues, those sort of things - which, yes, the film has. Saying you think musical planets are out of place in a universe with a talking raccoon named after a Beatles song is valid as a personal preference but not particularly illuminating.

 

[Willmark]

I have no doubt X doesn’t like it - it’s going to really upset the kind of people who say “M-She-U.” It’s comic book goofy in the best way, the kind of thing Lee and Kirby would have dreamed up, and a lot of even the more negative mainstream reviewers liked it and wanted more of that type of absurdity. In a world where the comically self-serious recent Batman was a hit, yeah, it’s clear that a lot of folks want their comic book movies to assure audiences they’re big grown-ups. But I was always the kind of guy who thought Punisher and Spawn were a lot more childish than Lockjaw the teleporting bulldog.

And no, it isn’t the kind of actual criticism folks here have been asking for. We’re talking about actual problems with the quality of the film - editing problems, writing issues, those sort of things - which, yes, the film has. Saying you think musical planets are out of place in a universe with a talking raccoon named after a Beatles song is valid as a personal preference but not particularly illuminating.

Whether you think that criticism is valid is quite frankly irrelevant.

What people dislike is not up to you validate as valid criticism. What people choose to offer up as commentary is likewise not up to you to valdate.

I dislike

Spoiler: Click here to see

musicals I almost any way, shape or form, so much so I will not watch them outside of maybe Gease.

As such, I categorically reject your implied “I’m somehow ”wrong” for having an opinion you dismiss out of hand.

 

[MrPromey]

It can be broken all (anyone) likes and it can also result in what we are seeing at the box office results we are right now.

Spoiler: Commentary on the scene

Musicals are not everyone's go to and I'm willing to guess even less with those who are fans of super hero movies

I think that's an either you-kind-of-go-along-with-it or you don't sort of thing.

As helping to emphasize this isn't a serious movie, I think it was effective and while I did find the premise corny, so did at least one character involved (while another was comically all-in)...

It also felt kind of like in a more meta way it was them saying "We're not taking the Captain Marvel character so seriously so maybe all of you out there shouldn't either".

My son will find it funny and in less of an eye-roll way than I did but if the source material was more serious and you were a fan of that, I could see you being unhappy about it.

I mean, I thought it was better than Jack Black and Lizzo's scenes in Mandalorian.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Whether you think that criticism is valid is quite frankly irrelevant.

What people dislike is not up to you validate as valid criticism. What people choose to offer up as commentary is likewise not up to you to valdate.

I dislike

Spoiler: Click here to see

musicals I almost any way, shape or form, so much so I will not watch them outside of maybe Gease.

As such, I categorically reject your implied “I’m somehow ”wrong” for having an opinion you dismiss out of hand.

That’s a personal preference. It’s fine, we all have them, and they’re valid as personal preferences. It’s NOT a valid criticism of the film. If you felt that planet was out of place? That’s a valid criticism, but a pretty tough one to argue in a universe as goofy as the MCU.

Posters here keep arguing that Disney just needs to make good films… simple, they say. When questioned on what’s wrong with Disney’s releases, saying something like, “I don’t like hats and there are too many hats in those movies” is not an answer to the question.