Captain Marvel 2: "The Marvels" -- Nov 10, 2023 Theatrical Release

[_caleb]

The box office results disagree with you.

Do you honestly think the avengers box office was a result of people in their 70s and 80s?

You’re not understanding. I’m not arguing with box office returns, just with your interpretation of those returns.

It’s obvious some segments are staying away. I don’t think all/most/many are staying away for the reasons you’re implying.

 

[Willmark]

Rigid categories are made to be broken.

Ever see the Buffy the Vampire episode called, “Once More, With Feeling?” It’s widely considered one of the best.

It can be broken all (anyone) likes and it can also result in what we are seeing at the box office results we are right now.

Spoiler: Commentary on the scene

Musicals are not everyone's go to and I'm willing to guess even less with those who are fans of super hero movies

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I think you overestimate the size of the audience you are in, projecting your perspectives onto other audiences.

I think you’re way off the ground on this one…

I’ve never seen a company bite the hands that feed them more than Disney the last 5-10 years. In all corners.

Leaving the others aside…the movie decisions - which I can respect on an idealistic level - are turning into a financial quagmire…

They’ve hired awful people and did awful strategic research…it’s not working. I hope they’re all fired now? Quite a body count at this point - for sure.

But this is peeing upwind. Again. MCU is heading due south. Not sure Wolverine matters now?

And we’ve BEEN here before.

A certain franchise was built and funded to never seen before heights (and really not since either) on the back of gen X males…

So what did the “braintrust” do? They intentionally shunned them. About anyway they could think of…

And now we’re in like year 8 of clunky damage control? And irrelevancy…if we are honest.

It’s the H thing again…hubris.

They’re doing it to marvel

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Let’s veer back to The Marvels.

SO, ABOUT THOSE MARVELS, that absolute disaster of a film by a floundering studio that is disconnected with the changing reality of their own industry.

Think Marvel/Disney peeps are truly that disconnected and are flabbergasted by this or do they know, are trying, and simply don't know what to do?

 

[_caleb]

The post I responded to said they were looking for a new fan base because they thought the old one would be dead in 5 years, I disagreed and said it was 30-60 year olds, and younger.

When you said I’m overestimating the size of the audience I’m in I assumed you meant 30-60 year olds since we were taking specifically about age.

I know you were talking about age groups. I’m saying “30-60 year olds” isn’t one single audience. And the assertion that they will be “dead” in 5 years seems silly, but I think it makes sense to say whatever collection of audiences provided for Disney’s past Marvel success really can’t be counted on to do so 5 years from now.

 

[Willmark]

Is this the part where we say money doesn’t matter and as long as one…”fan”…says it’s “good”…then disney succeeded?

…been at least a month since we rolled down that street

Usually it goes something like this:

1. Movie gets announced.
2. Trailers get released.
3. Endless back and forth that the movie can't possibly be judged on 1:30 of a trailer.
4. Speculation mounts as good or bad press leaks out.
5. Some other detail of fragment of the movie leaks out. Usually, not good.
6. Queue commentary of "how about you wait until its released."
7. Movie is hailed as a critical triumph or the worst thing ever.
8. Early signs don't look good.
9. Movie is finally released.
10. Attend packed showings.
11. Post about other theaters (optional.)
12. Post about how everyone clapped at the end (optional.)
13. Ignore poor opening day numbers.
14. Ignore poor opening week numbers.
15. Ignore poor international numbers.
16. Blame Americans (especially disliked groups) for poor numbers overseas (actually happens here on this site.)
17. Blame X for the failure of the movie.
18. Ignore the actual reasons for the movies failure.
19. Give up on the movie for reasons.
20. Start at Step 1.

It's clear there is an issue with Disney movies that can't be explained by the pandemic, streaming, MCU fatigue, etc solely. It's also clear DIsney could have saved themselves a lot of time and effort if the had just lit a couple hundred million dollars on fire.

Will the Marvels rally? Sure it's possible, but doesn't look like it and we'll be back here again with the next one. The warning signs were all there for all of us to see, it's not surprising because step out of the small corner of the web? It is not well received as in at all.

MCU movies were a license to print money, now I'm not so sure.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

It's clear there is an issue with Disney movies that can't be explained by the pandemic, streaming, MCU fatigue, etc solely. It's also clear DIsney could have saved themselves a lot of time and effort if the had just lit a couple hundred million dollars on fire.

Will the Marvels rally? Sure, but doesn't look like it and we'll be back here again with the next one. The warning signs were all there for all of us to see, it's not surprising because step out of the small corner of the web/ It is not well received.

MCU movies were a license to print money, now I'm not so sure.

This is why I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Marvel weekly meeting next week... do they know? Are they totally clueless? Or do they know and they're trying their best and utterly failing?

What's the solution?

 

[Trauma]

Usually it goes something like this:

1. Movie gets announced.
2. Trailers get released.
3. Endless back and forth that the movie can't possibly be judged on 1:30 of a trailer.
4. Speculation mounts as good or bad press leaks out.
5. Some other detail of fragment of the movie leaks out. Usually, not good.
6. Queue commentary of "how about you wait until its released."
7. Movie is hailed as a critical triumph or the worst thing ever.
8. Early signs don't look good.
9. Movie is finally released.
10. Attend packed showings.
11. Post about other theaters (optional.)
12. Post about how everyone clapped at the end (optional.)
13. Ignore poor opening day numbers.
14. Ignore poor opening week numbers.
15. Ignore poor international numbers.
16. Blame Americans (especially disliked groups) for poor numbers overseas (actually happens here on this site.)
17. Blame X for the failure of the movie.
18. Ignore the actual reasons for the movies failure.
19. Give up on the movie for reasons.
20. Start at Step 1.

It's clear there is an issue with Disney movies that can't be explained by the pandemic, streaming, MCU fatigue, etc solely. It's also clear DIsney could have saved themselves a lot of time and effort if the had just lit a couple hundred million dollars on fire.

Will the Marvels rally? Sure it;s possible, but doesn't look like it and we'll be back here again with the next one. The warning signs were all there for all of us to see, it's not surprising because step out of the small corner of the web/ It is not well received.

MCU movies were a license to print money, now I'm not so sure.

Did you even think of the impact of burning a couple hundred million dollars ??

What type of monster are you ?

Losing millions on movies is more environmentally friendly.

 

[Willmark]

This is why I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Marvel weekly meeting next week... do they know? Are they totally clueless? Or do they know and they're trying their best and utterly failing?

What's the solution?

Part of the problem is Endgame itself. Its the same thing with LOTR or in the realm of TTRPGs Dragonlance: the defining "big moment" cuts a huge swath through it that it divides everything to "came before the event" and "everything that came after." That once the big event happens, everything else after is epilogue.

Add to this there is no story currently has the impact of Endgame or building towards. So as a result we get movies like Eternals.

But scarily enough, that appears as if that movie will end up better in terms of results? It's clear the first movie was a beneficiary of Endgame unless somehow the Marvels gets to a 1 billion? I don't see how that can happen.

 

[erasure fan1]

Add to this there is no story currently has the impact of Endgame or building towards. So as a result we get movies like Eternals.

That's the number one problem in my book. I've said before that phase 4 was just too all over the place. Too much content without enough focus. Where's the connection between most of the projects? Even something like the original guardians of the Galaxy, which wasn't really connected to the other films, gave you a big part of the overall story with the infinity stones.

 

[Tha Realest]

That's the number one problem in my book. I've said before that phase 4 was just too all over the place. Too much content without enough focus. Where's the connection between most of the projects? Even something like the original guardians of the Galaxy, which wasn't really connected to the other films, gave you a big part of the overall story with the infinity stones.

They had been planning to build towards Kang as the Thanos of this and the next phase of films.


Given how the last few films have been received, the reconfigured productions on what’s been filmed already, I suspect it’ll leak in a few weeks that the MCU is course correcting (likely in Variety or something during a lull between Thanksgiving and Christmas).

 

[TalkingHead]

Not to be confused with The Marvels, but The Holdovers, which is about a group of superheroes stuck at a boarding school during Christmas break, is magnificent.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Part of the problem is Endgame itself. Its the same thing with LOTR or in the realm of TTRPGs Dragonlance: the defining "big moment" cuts a huge swath through it that it divides everything to "came before the event" and "everything that came after." That once the big even happens everything else after is epilogue.

Add to this there is no story currently has the impact of Endgame or building towards. So as a result we get movies like Eternals.

That's what gets me... a world leading studio that stuck gold... and they completely and utterly dropped the ball. How do they not have a plan moving forward on how to maintain and relight the magic that they had found? We're no longer in the stubling stage of Marvel, they've fallen and smacked into the ground. How did we get from sure fire smash hits that got everyone talking about them non stop to less than utter apathy?

How did Marvel/Disney's management/leaders not keep the ship straight in the right direction?

 

[erasure fan1]

They had been planning to build towards Kang as the Thanos of this and the next phase of films.

Aside the issue with the actor. Building your next saga around Kang, wasn't really a bad thing. Introducing him in a D+ show wasn't the smartest thing. And then to not even reference him in anything else until antman didn't help either. So while most fans didn't know who Thanos was. The infinity stones tied it all together. And you learned a little more about Thanos along the way. Nothing like that is happening now. And that's an issue.

 

[Tha Realest]

Aside the issue with the actor. Building your next saga around Kang, wasn't really a bad thing. Introducing him in a D+ show wasn't the smartest thing. And then to not even reference him in anything else until antman didn't help either. So while most fans didn't know who Thanos was. The infinity stones tied it all together. And you learned a little more about Thanos along the way. Nothing like that is happening now. And that's an issue.

There’s a reason the MCU was at its strongest when it completely ignored the existence of the TV series, and the narrative influence only worked in one direction.

They’d be wise to relearn that lesson, but they can’t, because D+ has become a parasitic host that’s ruining the Parks and has about ruined the Marvel brand.

 

[Willmark]

That's what gets me... a world leading studio that stuck gold... and they completely and utterly dropped the ball. How do they not have a plan moving forward on how to maintain and relight the magic that they had found? We're no longer in the stubling stage of Marvel, they've fallen and smacked into the ground. How did we get from sure fire smash hits that got everyone talking about them non stop to less than utter apathy?

How did Marvel/Disney's management/leaders not keep the ship straight in the right direction?

If I had to guess they are relying on the fact that the X-Men will save them? Even there I don't think they are going to keep the continuity of the first two, X-Men and X-Men United and tinker with the characters to make them more "modern." And when I say that I mean the characters largely as is.

Up thread I outlined a few ideas:
1. Dark Phoenix which has been done HORRIBLY each time. The first time with shoe horning Hugh Jackman into the role that would be Cyclops and bad movie over all. The other one It had a few good moments but fell flat which is a shame as Sophie Turner could have been a great Jean Grey/Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.

But if they carry it out as is? You get the Watcher, the Imperial Guard of the Shiar. Outer space, stars being destroyed. Hell start with the M'kraan crystal to give it that Universe scale. Lilandra and the shiar, etc.

2. Secret Wars with the actual Beyonder.

3. Days of Future Past, not hoping back in time but rather the dystopian future of the Sentinels from which Rachel Summers comes from akin to the Future War in Terminator.

4. Cap and the Invaders of WWII but you need Chris Evans for that. Not sure he would want to do it. Throw in Agent Carter, Howard Stark and it has natural tie-ins.

Form a team of:
Captain America
Union Jack
Spitfire
Toro/Human Torch
Sub Mariner

Bucky? Wouldn't include him. Leave it mysterious as he becomes the Winter Soldier. Whizzer and Miss America? Not sure there either.

Punch out Nazis and Nazi villians like Master Man or Baron Blood and print money.

 

[CaptainMickey]

That's what gets me... a world leading studio that stuck gold... and they completely and utterly dropped the ball. How do they not have a plan moving forward on how to maintain and relight the magic that they had found? We're no longer in the stubling stage of Marvel, they've fallen and smacked into the ground. How did we get from sure fire smash hits that got everyone talking about them non stop to less than utter apathy?

How did Marvel/Disney's management/leaders not keep the ship straight in the right direction?

I think Ike Perlmutter and Nelson Peltz are asking this exact question...

 

[Willmark]

A further thought on the Dark Phoenix saga. To do it right I think you need something like six movies. Certainly not one like they have been trying to do. Three would likely be pushing it.

It’s self contained enough that it stands on its own and doesn’t require the “super hero homework of five movies” as has been applied to The Marvels on the web.

A properly cast Jean Grey would be critical. Duh right? The problem is in the current climate, a vulnerable Jean Grey? All the while missing the point of the story. It’s her vulnerability that makes her compelling, not the fact she can wipe out entire worlds.

When you think about it like this morning’s conversation about Superman and having no weaknesss making him and Captain Marvel boring? Here you have an entity that could squash Captain Marvel without breaking a sweat, she’s a cosmic level being and effectively has unlimited power.

And yet the writers were able to craft one of the greatest comic book storylines of all time. I doubt that could happen today…for various…reasons.

Lastly, the right Scott/Cyclops would need to be cast and is perhaps just as tough of a role as Jean Grey, if properly done.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That's the number one problem in my book. I've said before that phase 4 was just too all over the place. Too much content without enough focus. Where's the connection between most of the projects? Even something like the original guardians of the Galaxy, which wasn't really connected to the other films, gave you a big part of the overall story with the infinity stones.

…I may have mentioned this before…
……
…

See…I think they offed the two best/most recognizable characters that had driven 10 years of development and had very little to go to next.

Something about “troll” mass audiences not liking to see the most recognizable faces in movies go away?
…I mean…how could they not just be as satisfied with Antman and Suri?

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Does DCA have any meet and greets to tie in to the release???