Captain America 4

Disney Irish

Premium Member
They shot almost 3 movies worth of footage. So it's obvious he wasn't the right person for the job.
Again what are you going on about now?

As you haven't seen any of the footage how do you know what was shot wasn't good? How you do you know it wasn't the vision of the overall project that changed, or outside forces that cause it to change that is beyond the control of the director?

Let alone how do you know they actually shot 3 movies worth of footage, that is just plain silly.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
but it’s shocking to me how often I hear Disney hires say they have no connection to the projects they were hired to make, or say they disliked the previous projects, or they dislike the fans of the previous projects, or they wanted to make the fans of those precious projects uncomfortable or mad, etc.
That's just it. And it's not just a Disney issue. The problem comes in when you hire people who don't seem to care about respecting the source material. I don't care if you aren't some uber fan, but at least put in the effort to learn about the world, the characters, the lore... Or have someone who can help with that side of it.
When you watch interviews of the people who made something like season 1 of Mandalorian it’s evident they love Star Wars,
100%! Just watch the mando season one round table discussion thing they did for D+. When you here Jon talk about star wars, you can instantly tell he cares about the ip greatly. Watch the interviews with everyone from the fallout show. The number one thing was respecting the franchise. And the people who didn't really know about it, learned. It wasn't like Halo where everyone said, no we didn't play the games or read the books. We just want to make our own thing. And what show was more successful?
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Wonder if that’s on the director or the writers? Studios love to start filming with an outline but not a fully completed script, that’s gotta make the directors job infinitely harder.

I love the making of Frozen documentary on D+ as it’s a great behind the scenes look into how movies are made, I had no idea lines are literally being written and finalized the morning of the shoots, and after the test screenings massive changes are made on the fly, fascinating show.
All you have to do is look at the behind the scenes of the first Iron Man movie to see how its done. RDJ and Favreau literally making up the script as they go along, its a style of movie making that is very common in Hollywood.
 

MickeyMouse10

Well-Known Member
With Captain Falcon, simply put... it's mismanagement. Look at what they've done with one of my favorite Marvel characters, Blade.

They announced his film back in 2019, back when Mahershala Ali was 45 years old. I thought right away "What are they doing? This is a mistake!" He's a great actor, but he was too old for the role of a slow aging vampire.

6 years later, now 51 years old, he's officially way way too old. Wesley Snipes the first Blade was only 31 years old in the first film.
 
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brideck

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen it yet, but I would guess that Disney waffled pretty hard on what they wanted this movie to be. You don't hire the writers of The Princess and the Frog and the D+ Falcon show and set it to be made by the director of Luce unless at some point in the development process you wanted it to really lean into the ramifications of having a black Captain America. For those who have seen it, does the finished product reflect that, or is it mostly only paid lip service?

Unfortunately, I can think of millions of reasons (or $$) why, from a commercial standpoint, it's a bad idea to focus this movie around that.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
That's just it. And it's not just a Disney issue. The problem comes in when you hire people who don't seem to care about respecting the source material. I don't care if you aren't some uber fan, but at least put in the effort to learn about the world, the characters, the lore... Or have someone who can help with that side of it.

100%! Just watch the mando season one round table discussion thing they did for D+. When you here Jon talk about star wars, you can instantly tell he cares about the ip greatly. Watch the interviews with everyone from the fallout show. The number one thing was respecting the franchise. And the people who didn't really know about it, learned. It wasn't like Halo where everyone said, no we didn't play the games or read the books. We just want to make our own thing. And what show was more successful?
Dunno, I disagree. We were just talking about Bay over in the Box Office thread. Does Bay not knowing the lore of the Transformers franchise, which by that point was decades old, make it somehow worse than if he did, no. So again I don't see it as a prerequisite to being a filmmaker on any of this projects.
 

MickeyMouse10

Well-Known Member
Wonder if that’s on the director or the writers? Studios love to start filming with an outline but not a fully completed script, that’s gotta make the directors job infinitely harder.

I love the making of Frozen documentary on D+ as it’s a great behind the scenes look into how movies are made, I had no idea lines are literally being written and finalized the morning of the shoots, and after the test screenings massive changes are made on the fly, fascinating show.

Same applies for them too. If they can't hack it, then they shouldn't get the job. You can't get the guy that writes jokes for Jimmy Fallon to write a Marvel movie (antman 3).
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
Prior knowledge or love of the source material is also not a prerequisite though for being a filmmaker. I know that is hard to hear as a fan, but its a job just like any other.
Absolutely. Look no further than Gilroy and star wars rogue one. He came right out and said he doesn't care about star wars. Yet he made the best of the Disney star wars films in my opinion. Now that's more rare but it speaks to Gilroys ability as a filmmaker.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
All you have to do is look at the behind the scenes of the first Iron Man movie to see how it’s done. RDJ and Favreau literally making up the script as they go along, it’s a style of movie making that is very common in Hollywood.
I’m not disputing that it’s a common way of making movies, just saying it’s got to make the directors job much harder and result in a lot of wasted film to adjust to changes.

It’s shocking to me how many large construction projects are design/build now also, it’s a huge time saver but also causes a lot of backtracking in the long run. 2 steps forward, one step back philosophy, it’s much faster than waiting years for a completed plan but also creates a lot of added expense as you have to make changes to already built structures to fit the final designs.
 

brideck

Well-Known Member
All you have to do is look at the behind the scenes of the first Iron Man movie to see how its done. RDJ and Favreau literally making up the script as they go along, its a style of movie making that is very common in Hollywood.

This is certainly very common for Disney's movies, but I don't know that I would go so far as to say it's common in Hollywood. In the case of Marvel, it almost feels like they're going out of their way to channel "the Marvel way" of making comics (one-page treatment, then art, then scripting -- for those who may not know) in movie form.

It's way cheaper to fix issues and lock down your ideas ahead of time, too. My (aspiring) screenwriter friends are always using the joke, "Let's fix it in pre!"
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
This is certainly very common for Disney's movies, but I don't know that I would go so far as to say it's common in Hollywood. In the case of Marvel, it almost feels like they're going out of their way to channel "the Marvel way" of making comics (one-page treatment, then art, then scripting -- for those who may not know) in movie form.

It's way cheaper to fix issues and lock down your ideas ahead of time, too. My (aspiring) screenwriter friends are always using the joke, "Let's fix it in pre!"
Except improvisation is a fairly common directing style by letting the actors just go with a scene without being rigid and locked to the script. Maybe not the screenwriters favorite as it throws out their script for the most part, but it does lead to some great movie making.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
I’m not disputing that it’s a common way of making movies, just saying it’s got to make the directors job much harder and result in a lot of wasted film to adjust to changes.

It’s shocking to me how many large construction projects are design/build now also, it’s a huge time saver but also causes a lot of backtracking in the long run. 2 steps forward, one step back philosophy, it’s much faster than waiting years for a completed plan but also creates a lot of added expense as you have to make changes to already built structures to fit the final designs.
It depends on the style of the director, some like the freedom of not being locked to a script. Others find discomfort in it as they like to be locked to the structure of the written page. So its all comes down to the directors vision and style.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Same applies for them too. If they can't hack it, then they shouldn't get the job. You can't get the guy that writes jokes for Jimmy Fallon to write a Marvel movie (antman 3).
First it was Jimmy Kimmel not Jimmy Fallon, and that was early in his career. He was also a very accomplished comic book writer for both DC and Marvel themselves. So he has the street cred to write for a Marvel movie. But you'd know that if you'd have done even a little research about something before posting these bad takes.
 

brideck

Well-Known Member
I've always admired the approach that DC used for its Superman comics in the triangle era -- the years before/after the original Doomsday story in the 90s. They had 4 monthly titles, each run by a different creative team, but a single editor overseeing them all. Every year they would have a big retreat to plan out the stories for all 4 titles to make sure they would fit together while still giving them room to focus on individual stories of interest.

I have no idea why Disney doesn't employ something like this for their Marvel or Star Wars stuff. e.g. I have no problem with using 3 separate directors/writing teams for a Star Wars trilogy (as was originally planned), but I'll never get over not putting all of them in the same room ahead of time. Nonsensical.
 

brideck

Well-Known Member
Except improvisation is a fairly common directing style by letting the actors just go with a scene without being rigid and locked to the script. Maybe not the screenwriters favorite as it throws out their script for the most part, but it does lead to some great movie making.

There's a huge difference between improvisation within a scene and not really having a scene to begin with or dramatically changing story once a movie is underway.

The latter two are much more rare.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
There's a huge difference between improvisation within a scene and not really having a scene to begin with or dramatically changing story once a movie is underway.

The latter two are much more rare.
Dunno, I hear about it often that you'd be surprised. Heck, filmmaking during the editing process is also a style, I believe Kubrick was famous for that.

Also I would say its different to go into preproduction without a script (something fairly common these days especially on blockbusters even outside Disney) than it is to go into actual production without one, which is rare.
 

brideck

Well-Known Member
go into actual production without one, which is rare.

That's the truth. I don't think I've ever seen a mumblecore movie that I liked, so I'm glad that's a rare way of doing things.

The biggest problem for me with the write the movie as your making it approach is that it makes it really difficult to bake any level of nuance or anything beyond the clumsiest foreshadowing into it because you don't necessarily know where it's going to end up. And that typically just makes for really flat exercises in executing a plot punctuated at times by lines that someone thinks are funny or sound awesome.

ETA: I think that using pickups to add scenes to serve some of the purposes I'm talking about can work as a process after the fact, but I don't think that's how Marvel does things.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
I haven't seen it yet, but I would guess that Disney waffled pretty hard on what they wanted this movie to be. You don't hire the writers of The Princess and the Frog and the D+ Falcon show and set it to be made by the director of Luce unless at some point in the development process you wanted it to really lean into the ramifications of having a black Captain America. For those who have seen it, does the finished product reflect that, or is it mostly only paid lip service?

Unfortunately, I can think of millions of reasons (or $$) why, from a commercial standpoint, it's a bad idea to focus this movie around that.
A lot of that was in the D+ show, but it is touched upon a bit in the movie though less than one would hope. I imagine that is some of the stuff that was taken out as the movie was refocused on other things during the reshoots. It however doesn’t take away anything from the importance of Sam being Cap and the pressure he feels and is displayed in the movie by taking up the Shield.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
That's the truth. I don't think I've ever seen a mumblecore movie that I liked, so I'm glad that's a rare way of doing things.

The biggest problem for me with the write the movie as your making it approach is that it makes it really difficult to bake any level of nuance or anything beyond the clumsiest foreshadowing into it because you don't necessarily know where it's going to end up. And that typically just makes for really flat exercises in executing a plot punctuated at times by lines that someone thinks are funny or sound awesome.

ETA: I think that using pickups to add scenes to serve some of the purposes I'm talking about can work as a process after the fact, but I don't think that's how Marvel does things.
Admittedly I’m just an amateur Cinephile so don’t know all the terms for the different styles, just know they exist and can speak a bit about them. So don’t butcher me for not knowing the different names. :)

As for the rest I don’t disagree, I just think it can make for some great filmmaking but just like anything it all comes down to execution.
 

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