Bob Iger treated Disneyland with kid gloves — but took a sledgehammer to the ill-conceived DCA - OCR/SCNG

el_super

Well-Known Member
HMH probably gets a lot of it's popularity for the sheer fact that it's different than the normal version (also, being exclusively available during busier holiday seasons probably also helps a lot). By the same token, and I admit it's a bit a bad analogy, but McDonald's only brings out the McRib for random, limited time offerings. If it was available year round, I bet overall sales would decline.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I would think Nightmare Before Christmas is a more popular franchise simply because it's more accessible to a much wider audience. Anyone, anywhere can pop in the DVD and watch the movie, but to really experience the Mansion you have to physically be there. That limits the fandom of the Mansion to a much smaller audience, and that definitely has an impact on things like merchandise sales and impressions.

The split between the regular mansion and NBC mansion isn't all that great is it? About 5 months versus 7 months? I know they add things to the NBC seasonal offering to entice people to visit each year so maybe that has an impact too.
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
100%

Add in the ever-growing popularity of Disney vlogging, and it's no wonder that anything new becomes almost an instant "success". Disneyland could probably unveil a new restroom on Main St. and the next day there would be 100 YouTube videos giving you a "full walk-through POV".
8 minutes of the Tangled Toilets at WDW for your view (dis)pleasure

 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I would think Nightmare Before Christmas is a more popular franchise simply because it's more accessible to a much wider audience. Anyone, anywhere can pop in the DVD and watch the movie, but to really experience the Mansion you have to physically be there. That limits the fandom of the Mansion to a much smaller audience, and that definitely has an impact on things like merchandise sales and impressions.

The split between the regular mansion and NBC mansion isn't all that great is it? About 5 months versus 7 months? I know they add things to the NBC seasonal offering to entice people to visit each year so maybe that has an impact too.
Unless you grew up on the movie in the 90's or shop exclusively at Hot Topic, I don't know I'd say it's accessible to a much wider audience. ;)

In order to really test which would be more popular, they'd have to build a standalone NBC attraction and run it all year long, side by side with HM.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
8 minutes of the Tangled Toilets at WDW for your view (dis)pleasure


giphy.gif
 

October82

Well-Known Member
So aside from anything that had a character or IP added, what was your favorite change at Paradise Pier that "fixed" it from the 2001 version?

The placemaking.

Placemaking capitalizes on a local community's assets, inspiration, and potential, with the intention of creating public spaces that promote people's health, happiness, and well-being. [...] Placemaking is both a process and a philosophy that makes use of urban design principles.

The IP has always just been an overlay on top of it. Sometimes IP can work with placemaking, but sometimes that overlay gets in the way or replaces it instead - which is the main problem with Pixar Pier.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Pixar Pier likely initially drew large crowds because of people's obsession with experiencing NEW! in Disney parks. But once the realization settled in that not much was really different, it's novelty wears off until the next big thing comes around.

Agreed. But Pixar Pier got outsized attention during its construction and then its opening because of Screamin'.

When they changed Screamin' into Incredicoaster and made a big schmoozy deal about adding an exciting Incredibles storyline to it with "Show scenes!" and "Enclosed tunnels!" and "Special FX!" it got everyone excited. And there was clearly construction going on that all the neckbeard bloggers frothed over as they stuck their iPhones over the construction walls.

Then it opened, and... yes there was a new queue and some little trackside vignettes with pivoting manequins, but the new experience overall seemed to actually detract from what was already a very good coaster.

The rest of Pixar Pier was paint and decals for snack bars (that began peeling off within weeks), and delayed openings to 2019 of minor rides like the B Ticket Jessie's Critter Carousel and C Ticket Disney-Pixar Inside Out Emotional Whirlwind.

Pixar Pier was a failure that damaged the park's brand overall. But if it weren't for all the mystery and excitement around turning Screamin' into Incredicoaster, I think even the neckbeard bloggers would have acknowledged that Pixar Pier was an overhyped paint job and decal application.
 

Miru

Well-Known Member
Agreed. But Pixar Pier got outsized attention during its construction and then its opening because of Screamin'.

When they changed Screamin' into Incredicoaster and made a big schmoozy deal about adding an exciting Incredibles storyline to it with "Show scenes!" and "Enclosed tunnels!" and "Special FX!" it got everyone excited. And there was clearly construction going on that all the neckbeard bloggers frothed over as they stuck their iPhones over the construction walls.

Then it opened, and... yes there was a new queue and some little trackside vignettes with pivoting manequins, but the new experience overall seemed to actually detract from what was already a very good coaster.

The rest of Pixar Pier was paint and decals for snack bars (that began peeling off within weeks), and delayed openings to 2019 of minor rides like the B Ticket Jessie's Critter Carousel and C Ticket Disney-Pixar Inside Out Emotional Whirlwind.

Pixar Pier was a failure that damaged the park's brand overall. But if it weren't for all the mystery and excitement around turning Screamin' into Incredicoaster, I think even the neckbeard bloggers would have acknowledged that Pixar Pier was an overhyped paint job and decal application.
This also ended up making gnashers absolutely despise the ride even if the original was nothing special compared to other beloved attractions.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
I would think Nightmare Before Christmas is a more popular franchise simply because it's more accessible to a much wider audience. Anyone, anywhere can pop in the DVD and watch the movie, but to really experience the Mansion you have to physically be there. That limits the fandom of the Mansion to a much smaller audience, and that definitely has an impact on things like merchandise sales and impressions.

The split between the regular mansion and NBC mansion isn't all that great is it? About 5 months versus 7 months? I know they add things to the NBC seasonal offering to entice people to visit each year so maybe that has an impact too.
I have no doubt that to execs and synergy execs, HMH serves a more obvious choice.

But that also would be an argument of how clueless they tend to be. If anything, Haunted Mansion should be treated with more respect as a theme park attraction that is universally recognized as a one of the best achievements in the industry, period. It has been around 50 years, which may not seem like much in the context of Disneyland specifically but is a really, really long time for any attraction in the themed/amusement industry to be around. It's still around for a reason-it's pretty damn good, and everyone with a brain thinks so.

It doesn't need an IP to justify its existence because quality will out. By contrast, you can't argue that the artistry of something like, say, Frozen Ever After is so good that it would be getting the lines that it does if people weren't so obsessed with that particular franchise.

Will people still be obsessed with Frozen enough to justify keeping Frozen Ever After for 50 years? Because if you don't already know who the characters are, I can't imagine a rather basic boat ride with a bunch of characters singing variations on "doncha wanna meet Elsa?!?" the entire time with a random snow monster and a whee! backwards! section is going to do much for you.

By contrast, everyone understands the concept of a Haunted House. You don't need to educate yourself with a backstory beforehand to get something out if it. You know, that thing Disney used to be really good at with its attractions until sometime in the Eisner/Iger years.

Additionally, you mention that you need to be there to experience it as if that's negative. If anything, it makes the original Mansion more valuable. It is a reason to go to Disneyland because you can't do it at home, and that's valuable in an age where people are increasingly finding (and enjoying) that they can do a lot of things they used to have to go out to do from the comfort of their home. If I want to experience my favorite Disney character of choice, the most sensible thing to do is to get a DVD player or streaming device. This is especially true if the ride featuring the character isn't actually very good. $8 a month to watch Monsters Inc on Disney+, $30 to own it, or $120+/person for a mediocre attraction that doesn't live up to the film? You can imagine the choice most peole make. It becomes all the more tempting to play the Toy Story Mania video game you already own then get off the couch to experience the ride through version of it, because when all is said and done there are only so many merits for that particular attraction, and not enough for "effort" to triumph over "easy." But to ride Haunted Mansion, there are only three places in the entire world I can go (or, from mid August to mid January, 1 place). Places that are going to make Disney a lot more money in a single bound than a $7.99 monthly D+ subscription split among a family or group of friends. In that way, a ride like Haunted Mansion becomes a better investment than DisneyCharacter the Ride: great attractions are timeless. Cheap tie-ins aren't long term draws and will be gutted down the road when the public tires of the franchise and then realizes the ride isn't good enough to justify its own existence.

For me, Haunted Mansion is absolutely a draw and I couldn't care less about Nightmare Before Christmas. Am I irrelevant because I'm not in the more profitable demographic? At any rate, putting an entire attraction's worth on the amount of merchandise it sells is a terrible metric, and if Disney went all the way with that, you'd lose a lot of great stuff and be left with a lot of junk.

re: HMH's season specifically, There are two problems with it. The first is that the original Mansion, y'know, the iconic one, cannot be experienced during the Halloween season, and HMH definitely leans more heavily on the Christmas side of things than Halloween. And of course whenever there's any refurb or maintenance work that needs to be done, it always comes at the regular ride's expense-never the overlay. If the attraction's season was shorter and the refurb schedule balanced more equally, a good number of the complaints on boards like these would go away.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
I have no doubt that to execs and synergy execs, HMH serves a more obvious choice.

But that also would be an argument of how clueless they tend to be. If anything, Haunted Mansion should be treated with more respect as a theme park attraction that is universally recognized as a one of the best achievements in the industry, period. It has been around 50 years, which may not seem like much in the context of Disneyland specifically but is a really, really long time for any attraction in the themed/amusement industry to be around. It's still around for a reason-it's pretty damn good, and everyone with a brain thinks so.

It doesn't need an IP to justify its existence because quality will out. By contrast, you can't argue that the artistry of something like, say, Frozen Ever After is so good that it would be getting the lines that it does if people weren't so obsessed with that particular franchise.

Will people still be obsessed with Frozen enough to justify keeping Frozen Ever After for 50 years? Because if you don't already know who the characters are, I can't imagine a rather basic boat ride with a bunch of characters singing variations on "doncha wanna meet Elsa?!?" the entire time with a random snow monster and a whee! backwards! section is going to do much for you.

By contrast, everyone understands the concept of a Haunted House. You don't need to educate yourself with a backstory beforehand to get something out if it. You know, that thing Disney used to be really good at with its attractions until sometime in the Eisner/Iger years.

Additionally, you mention that you need to be there to experience it as if that's negative. If anything, it makes the original Mansion more valuable. It is a reason to go to Disneyland because you can't do it at home, and that's valuable in an age where people are increasingly finding (and enjoying) that they can do a lot of things they used to have to go out to do from the comfort of their home. If I want to experience my favorite Disney character of choice, the most sensible thing to do is to get a DVD player or streaming device. This is especially true if the ride featuring the character isn't actually very good. $8 a month to watch Monsters Inc on Disney+, $30 to own it, or $120+/person for a mediocre attraction that doesn't live up to the film? You can imagine the choice most peole make. It becomes all the more tempting to play the Toy Story Mania video game you already own then get off the couch to experience the ride through version of it, because when all is said and done there are only so many merits for that particular attraction, and not enough for "effort" to triumph over "easy." But to ride Haunted Mansion, there are only three places in the entire world I can go (or, from mid August to mid January, 1 place). Places that are going to make Disney a lot more money in a single bound than a $7.99 monthly D+ subscription split among a family or group of friends. In that way, a ride like Haunted Mansion becomes a better investment than DisneyCharacter the Ride: great attractions are timeless. Cheap tie-ins aren't long term draws and will be gutted down the road when the public tires of the franchise and then realizes the ride isn't good enough to justify its own existence.

For me, Haunted Mansion is absolutely a draw and I couldn't care less about Nightmare Before Christmas. Am I irrelevant because I'm not in the more profitable demographic? At any rate, putting an entire attraction's worth on the amount of merchandise it sells is a terrible metric, and if Disney went all the way with that, you'd lose a lot of great stuff and be left with a lot of junk.

re: HMH's season specifically, There are two problems with it. The first is that the original Mansion, y'know, the iconic one, cannot be experienced during the Halloween season, and HMH definitely leans more heavily on the Christmas side of things than Halloween. And of course whenever there's any refurb or maintenance work that needs to be done, it always comes at the regular ride's expense-never the overlay. If the attraction's season was shorter and the refurb schedule balanced more equally, a good number of the complaints on boards like these would go away.
Also... just as a thought, a version of HM has been reproduced at nearly every Disneyland around the world. By contrast, HMH, if it truly is that popular, still only exists at DL. That doesn't make much sense.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Also... just as a thought, a version of HM has been reproduced at nearly every Disneyland around the world. By contrast, HMH, if it truly is that popular, still only exists at DL. That doesn't make much sense.
Tokyo also does a version of the overlay.

But it is definitely absurd at this point that with Nightmare's popularity proving to be enduring despite a lack of follow-up content, there isn't something more permanent. If all popular IPs should be represented in as many places as possible, indisputably a notion that modern WDC execs subscribe to, than it shouldn't still be relegated to only a seasonal overlay of a superior attraction. At this point NBC deserves its own dark ride. It has the popularity and environments where it should be easy to pull off with just a little effort on their part.

No excuse that the only Nightmare rides in the world come at the expense of one of THE icons for five months of the year. The smarter company would have BOTH rides, and everyone wins!
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
Tokyo also does a version of the overlay.

But it is definitely absurd at this point that with Nightmare's popularity proving to be enduring despite a lack of follow-up content, there isn't something more permanent. If all popular IPs should be represented in as many places as possible, indisputably a notion that modern WDC execs subscribe to, than it shouldn't still be relegated to only a seasonal overlay of a superior attraction. At this point NBC deserves its own dark ride. It has the popularity and environments where it should be easy to pull off with just a little effort on their part.

No excuse that the only Nightmare rides in the world come at the expense of one of THE icons for five months of the year. The smarter company would have BOTH rides, and everyone wins!
I stand corrected!

But I also agree, 100%. Disney is really doing themselves a disservice by not cashing in on NBC year-round if it's popularity is still at such a high level.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Tokyo also does a version of the overlay.

But it is definitely absurd at this point that with Nightmare's popularity proving to be enduring despite a lack of follow-up content, there isn't something more permanent. If all popular IPs should be represented in as many places as possible, indisputably a notion that modern WDC execs subscribe to, than it shouldn't still be relegated to only a seasonal overlay of a superior attraction. At this point NBC deserves its own dark ride. It has the popularity and environments where it should be easy to pull off with just a little effort on their part.

No excuse that the only Nightmare rides in the world come at the expense of one of THE icons for five months of the year. The smarter company would have BOTH rides, and everyone wins!

Agreed!

A dedicated NBC dark ride that immerses you in the environments of the film would be really spectacular. And it's an IP that's tailor made for a gift shop at the exit that sells figurines, clothing, and artwork focused around NBC.

Heck, stick it in the Hollywood area in DCA and get NBC out of New Orleans Square entirely. I'd probably enjoy the property a lot more if it wasn't accompanied by the baggage of leeching off of Mansion and having presence in New Orleans Square where it really has no place.
 

Mac Tonight

Well-Known Member
Agreed!

A dedicated NBC dark ride that immerses you in the environments of the film would be really spectacular. And it's an IP that's tailor made for a gift shop at the exit that sells figurines, clothing, and artwork focused around NBC.

Heck, stick it in the Hollywood area in DCA and get NBC out of New Orleans Square entirely. I'd probably enjoy the property a lot more if it wasn't accompanied by the baggage of leeching off of Mansion and having presence in New Orleans Square where it really has no place.
Something I often think about is that if Disney were charged with building a NBC attraction, it would NOT start out with you going into an old decrepit mansion and subsequently riding through the corridors until you fall out the attic window and go through a graveyard... But we just accept HMH as is, because both NBC and HM are "creepy" in nature.

Same goes with GOTG being an elevator drop ride, but that's a separate conversation...
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Agreed!

A dedicated NBC dark ride that immerses you in the environments of the film would be really spectacular. And it's an IP that's tailor made for a gift shop at the exit that sells figurines, clothing, and artwork focused around NBC.

Heck, stick it in the Hollywood area in DCA and get NBC out of New Orleans Square entirely. I'd probably enjoy the property a lot more if it wasn't accompanied by the baggage of leeching off of Mansion and having presence in New Orleans Square where it really has no place.

I’d 100% back a new NBC ride in DCA and getting it out of the Mansion. I have no doubt however that the final product wouldn’t be as good as the overlay. Not that I care but the overlay has the wonderful Mansion and everything inside to piggy back off of. A new NBC ride would be a darker MMRR with screens galore.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
A new NBC ride would be a darker MMRR with screens galore.
Yeah, you're probably right. And that would be wasted potential. Nightmare Before Christmas I feel would lend itself very well to an Audio Animatronics-heavy ride, particularly because the stop-motion look of the characters would be easy to replicate with an animatronic (as the Jack, Sally, and Oogie animatronics in Haunted Mansion Holiday demonstrate).
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Yeah, you're probably right. And that would be wasted potential. Nightmare Before Christmas I feel would lend itself very well to an Audio Animatronics-heavy ride, particularly because the stop-motion look of the characters would be easy to replicate with an animatronic (as the Jack, Sally, and Oogie animatronics in Haunted Mansion Holiday demonstrate).


A fantastic dark ride could be made using the NBC IP.... by the right people at the right company at the right time. It would definitely need to be AA heavy with fully fleshed out sets. What’s the last example we have of a ride like this? Hunny Hunt from 20 years ago?

Anyway, I’d sign off on any idea to get NBC out of the Mansion.
 
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