Big changes coming to FASTPASS in March

[Buried20KLeague]

I don't oppose the boards, but I don't think they are required either. I always thought of fastpass as, hey you're at the ride you want to go on, but the line is long, don't want to wait, then get a fastpass and come back. That isn't the same as, I'm in adventureland and want to ride space mountain at some point this afternoon, I wonder if I SHOULD get a fast pass. Do you see the difference there?

I do. But I see both of those as completely valid and rational "wants", too. I don't see one as less important than the other.

I don't think it should be harder for me to decide if I want a FP for Splash for later that night just because I'm currently standing in front of SGE. Currently it doesn't matter (except for extreme unexpected cases) because I can just use the FP late if I have to. With this policy, it's much more of a crap shoot whether it's worth walking all the way over there.

 

[Rasvar]

I'm a local who visits twice-weekly, and I'd also say that I've never noticed FP lines as particularly longer in the evenings.

I have not really noticed it at WDW. Disneyland, it is epidemic. After parade or fireworks there does tend to be a bit of FP crunch at Space Mountain or Big Thunder.

It will change my pattern. I am fine with that. I won't be rushing to get some of those FP right off the bat. So it will have some effects. It will still only affect a small group.

 

[PhilharMagician]

See my reply to fractal. I think we just disagree on this one. I really can't say that I've witnessed much of what you're describing, outside of post-parade or F! or fireworks... And I have no idea if those people hold FP's from 3PM or from 9PM and they all waited till after Illuminations to all hit TT at the same time.

I've never walked up to a FP ride late in the day and seen a long FP line that I couldn't directly say "ah, it's the post-Wishes rush", basically.

I'm willing to bet those post-show type rushes will continue, too... And will allow for late returners.

I'm a local who visits twice-weekly, and I'd also say that I've never noticed FP lines as particularly longer in the evenings.

What I said was from my observation. I and I cannot believe that you have not seen the TT or TSMM queues change throughout the day. In the morning though early afternoon the standby lines can exit the bldg or at least reach capacity with a posted wait time of 70 minutes while the FP line has ZERO. Go back at 7:00 pm and the standyby line is showing 90 minutes and is probably 30% shorter if not more and the FP line now has a 10 minute wait. You stand outside and watch the lines and you wil be able to count many more people entering the FP than the standby queues. There is quite a drastic swing that happens throughout the day. As I said before, it could be by design and Disney issues more FP's for late in the day, but I highly doubt it.

This same phenomenon is visible in PP, Space, BTMRR, and every other busy/popular ride. I have found it much more visible to me during moderately busy times in the parks. Holidays are so busy that everything is a mess and slow times (which seem to be getting few and far between) it does not have that much of an effect.

 

[Rasvar]

What I said was from my observation. I and I cannot believe that you have not seen the TT or TSMM queues change throughout the day. In the morning though early afternoon the standby lines can exit the bldg or at least reach capacity with a posted wait time of 70 minutes while the FP line has ZERO. Go back at 7:00 pm and the standyby line is showing 90 minutes and is probably 30% shorter if not more and the FP line now has a 10 minute wait. You stand outside and watch the lines and you wil be able to count many more people entering the FP than the standby queues. There is quite a drastic swing that happens throughout the day. As I said before, it could be by design and Disney issues more FP's for late in the day, but I highly doubt it.

I'm not sure it is still done but there was line stacking in the past near the end of the night. It was always more apparent in the last hour. I have noticed that the request for a new line time update sometimes gets ignored late in the evening (ie, the machine beeping and gets reset with no card being given to a person in line). This is the time when I sometimes ignore the posted time as it seems to be up there to diminish the lines size near park close. I've never really asked if there is an official or unofficial policy on this but I think there is SB line posted time inflation near closing to mange the lines.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

What I said was from my observation. I and I cannot believe that you have not seen the TT or TSMM queues change throughout the day. In the morning though early afternoon the standby lines can exit the bldg or at least reach capacity with a posted wait time of 70 minutes while the FP line has ZERO. Go back at 7:00 pm and the standyby line is showing 90 minutes and is probably 30% shorter if not more and the FP line now has a 10 minute wait. You stand outside and watch the lines and you wil be able to count many more people entering the FP than the standby queues. There is quite a drastic swing that happens throughout the day. As I said before, it could be by design and Disney issues more FP's for late in the day, but I highly doubt it.

This same phenomenon is visible in PP, Space, BTMRR, and every other busy/popular ride. I have found it much more visible to me during moderately busy times in the parks. Holidays are so busy that everything is a mess and slow times (which seem to be getting few and far between) it does not have that much of an effect.

I'm ignorant of the TSMM situation. I don't even go BACK there. When I want to ride TSMM, I go to DL. I know the insanity that is WDW's version, so I don't even bother. So I can't relate on that one.

The only thing I've witnessed at the others was spikes due to some major event ending, like I said.

I've honestly never seen what you're suggesting. I'm not saying it doesn't exist... I've just never seen it.

I'd be very surprised by that if it were true, as even on a WDW board like this, clearly it was a small percentage of people that knew about the late return rule... When you're talking about the general WDW masses, it's got to be an even smaller percentage overall.

 

[flynnibus]

Another thought I just had on the rush of FP returns after night time events in the parks...

I could potentially see them cutting off FP for the night at some specific point... Say, 9PM at Epcot (because of Illuminations). They'll have less complaints from late returners if returning isn't even an option because the FP lines are closed for the night every night before Illuminations is over.

I believe they would do that before they would turn hundreds of people away from each attraction after Wishes because their time passed during the show.

Having a big window that many many people miss (due to entertainment) and causing a surge of late returners that need to be handled is a valid concern.

But I don't think cutting the machines off at a certain time will help you. You have to look at the human psych in this. Think about it, the situation where this will be worst is the most popular attractions. Why? Because the more popular the attraction, the further the return time window is out. The further the return time is out, the less people think about what COULD be a conflict. People think much harder about if someone says 'meet me there in 30mins' vs if someone said 'meet me here in 6hrs'. They know they can deal with constraints later for the 6hr scenario. So the more popular the attraction -> the farther out return windows will be -> the more likely people will get themselves in the trap.

Then you have to deal with the problem of 'when do you turn the machine off'? The time would vary every day based on demand. That would lead to very unpredictable behavior and just ________ people off.

So what's the solution? It's quite simple. Don't give out FP return windows that significantly overlap with planned major entertainment. Just have the FP calculations 'jump' over that time window.

 

[PhilharMagician]

I'm not sure it is still done but there was line stacking in the past near the end of the night. It was always more apparent in the last hour. I have noticed that the request for a new line time update sometimes gets ignored late in the evening (ie, the machine beeping and gets reset with no card being given to a person in line). This is the time when I sometimes ignore the posted time as it seems to be up there to diminish the lines size near park close. I've never really asked if there is an official or unofficial policy on this but I think there is SB line posted time inflation near closing to mange the lines.

Go through the FP lane @ TT in the evening. You will see that room 3 is filled by 100% FP's, room 2 is many times about 70% - 80% FP's if not more and room 1 is stricktly single rider. The stand-by line is quite often not even back as far as the blue (sound) room with a posted time of well over an hour and the FP line is to the entrance of the building. This is the opposite of what it looks like earlier in the day. I do understand what you are saying about the sign showing a longer time to defer people, but you can visually see standing in the FP line that the SB line is simply not moving.

I'm ignorant of the TSMM situation. I don't even go BACK there. When I want to ride TSMM, I go to DL. I know the insanity that is WDW's version, so I don't even bother. So I can't relate on that one.

The only thing I've witnessed at the others was spikes due to some major event ending, like I said.

I've honestly never seen what you're suggesting. I'm not saying it doesn't exist... I've just never seen it.

I'd be very surprised by that if it were true, as even on a WDW board like this, clearly it was a small percentage of people that knew about the late return rule... When you're talking about the general WDW masses, it's got to be an even smaller percentage overall.

DHS TSMM is absolute insanity! It is off to the races when the rope drops and then the line to get a FP extends back to VotLM. :hammer: The wait at this time is shorter for the ride than it is to get a darn FP! :brick:



Next time you are there take stop by one of the rides arund noon and for about 5 minutes count the people entering the SB and FP queues. Then stop back around 7:00 pm and do the same. I believe you will see a differance.


I completely agree that only a small persentage of FP users actually use FP's beyond the window, but even a small percentage of late arrivals per hour compounded over many hours can create a traffic jam later on...

 

[Fractal514]

I do. But I see both of those as completely valid and rational "wants", too. I don't see one as less important than the other.

I don't think it should be harder for me to decide if I want a FP for Splash for later that night just because I'm currently standing in front of SGE. Currently it doesn't matter (except for extreme unexpected cases) because I can just use the FP late if I have to. With this policy, it's much more of a crap shoot whether it's worth walking all the way over there.

But don't you think that your idea of going all the way over to the other side of the park just for a FP is precisely what they want to do away with? If you've got guests busy criss crossing the park and maximizing their time on rides, they aren't busy in shops or in lesser populated rides killing time. I think what you are talking about makes a lot of sense for the way you use FP, I just don't think it was the way Disney intended it to be used. Rather than you crossing the park to get that FP and then crossing back, I think they'd rather someone in Frontierland grab the FP and then watch Country Bears or hit Tom Sawyers Island or grab lunch.

 

[Fractal514]

I would also like to point out that these issues being discussed are much more prevalent on Toy Story Midway Mania, Soarin, and Test Track than anything else. I believe that this is due to the popularity of The UnOfficial Guide and Touring Plans. They advocate getting the FP early on and saving them for later. So I do think it is becoming more and more of an issue as the word gets out.

 

[tinkerbell_S]

I didn't realize that The Unofficial Guidebooks and Tour Books were giving out that information! That's crazy!

 

[Rowdy]

I'm a local who visits twice-weekly, and I'd also say that I've never noticed FP lines as particularly longer in the evenings.

I'm a local who visits almost as often as you and I definitely see it happen.

Obviously it's for the bigger headliners around the parks, but still, I've seen it happen.


Unrelated to that quote. I hardly ever use fastpass (it's been exactly one year in March, and they were given to me), and I still experience everything I'd like to. If people think that FP is a necessity just to see everything in the park, they're mistaken. Granted if it's a super busy time, I can understand that. But if you're not there during peak peak season, just hit what you'd like, you'll get it all done.

 

[PhilharMagician]

Having a big window that many many people miss (due to entertainment) and causing a surge of late returners that need to be handled is a valid concern.

But I don't think cutting the machines off at a certain time will help you. You have to look at the human psych in this. Think about it, the situation where this will be worst is the most popular attractions. Why? Because the more popular the attraction, the further the return time window is out. The further the return time is out, the less people think about what COULD be a conflict. People think much harder about if someone says 'meet me there in 30mins' vs if someone said 'meet me here in 6hrs'. They know they can deal with constraints later for the 6hr scenario. So the more popular the attraction -> the farther out return windows will be -> the more likely people will get themselves in the trap.

Then you have to deal with the problem of 'when do you turn the machine off'? The time would vary every day based on demand. That would lead to very unpredictable behavior and just ________ people off.

So what's the solution? It's quite simple. Don't give out FP return windows that significantly overlap with planned major entertainment. Just have the FP calculations 'jump' over that time window.

The answer is still simple in the end. Just enforce the time shown on the ticket. No extra 5 minutes just the times posted! No questions! No Variables! Just guests that think it is unfair! It is Disney's right to use the system the way they see fit or even completely disolve it, we are just along for the ride. Disney cannot worry about people watching a parade, deciding to have an extra dessert or leaving the parks completely. If you would like a FP and not have to stand in a long line then you need to be there!
I am curious to see how this will all work in the end. Disney probably has had teams of statisticians reviewing numbers and system operations to get better throughput from their existing attractions and maximize every one of them. This is evolution of the theme park. Put on your seat belt because we are in for changes. Good or bad?

 

[PhilharMagician]

I would also like to point out that these issues being discussed are much more prevalent on Toy Story Midway Mania, Soarin, and Test Track than anything else. I believe that this is due to the popularity of The UnOfficial Guide and Touring Plans. They advocate getting the FP early on and saving them for later. So I do think it is becoming more and more of an issue as the word gets out.

Yes, I pointed out the most obvious.

I believe that all of the info that we all write and read affects how we spend time in the parks. We all look here to one another for helpful hints and information about making our trip better and maybe get an extra ride on our favorite attraction. Sites like Touringplans may end up being it's own worst enemy. If more people follow it's recommended park of the day then will the result end up being reversed?

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

The answer is still simple in the end. Just enforce the time shown on the ticket. No extra 5 minutes just the times posted! No questions! No Variables! Just guests that think it is unfair! It is Disney's right to use the system the way they see fit or even completely disolve it, we are just along for the ride. Disney cannot worry about people watching a parade, deciding to have an extra dessert or leaving the parks completely. If you would like a FP and not have to stand in a long line then you need to be there!
I am curious to see how this will all work in the end. Disney probably has had teams of statisticians reviewing numbers and system operations to get better throughput from their existing attractions and maximize every one of them. This is evolution of the theme park. Put on your seat belt because we are in for changes. Good or bad?

Disney has decided to allow 5 minutes early and 15 minutes late. As you say, they have the right to use the system the way they see fit. Sorry if you think Disney's being too generous.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

DHS TSMM is absolute insanity! It is off to the races when the rope drops and then the line to get a FP extends back to VotLM. :hammer: The wait at this time is shorter for the ride than it is to get a darn FP! :brick:

Reminds me of Pooh in Tokyo. I've never seen anything like it. But that ride is WORTH the 25 minute FP wait... I'm not so sure about TSMM!!

Next time you are there take stop by one of the rides arund noon and for about 5 minutes count the people entering the SB and FP queues. Then stop back around 7:00 pm and do the same. I believe you will see a differance....

I was going to suggest this in my last post... But our next trip isn't until March 15th... After the rule is going to be enforced... So I would assume the flows won't be the same anymore.

I completely agree that only a small persentage of FP users actually use FP's beyond the window, but even a small percentage of late arrivals per hour compounded over many hours can create a traffic jam later on...

I believe it wouldn't have that cascading effect, but I've got nothing to support that. Maybe in low capacity attractions like PP and TSMM... But not at JC, RNRC, TOT, etc...

 

[Buried20KLeague]

But don't you think that your idea of going all the way over to the other side of the park just for a FP is precisely what they want to do away with? If you've got guests busy criss crossing the park and maximizing their time on rides, they aren't busy in shops or in lesser populated rides killing time. I think what you are talking about makes a lot of sense for the way you use FP, I just don't think it was the way Disney intended it to be used. Rather than you crossing the park to get that FP and then crossing back, I think they'd rather someone in Frontierland grab the FP and then watch Country Bears or hit Tom Sawyers Island or grab lunch.

I can't think of any reason Disney would care or actively deter walking across the park for a FP. You theoretically pass more opportunities to spend money by crossing the park as you would staying in one area.

 

[PhilharMagician]

Disney has decided to allow 5 minutes early and 15 minutes late. As you say, they have the right to use the system the way they see fit. Sorry if you think Disney's being too generous.

I did not say they were too generous. The issue is if Disney offers a non-posted time variable it will add to the confusion. Either post the variable on the FP, add into the time on the FP or don't have one a variable at all. If it is not in writing adds to the confusion and eventually the complaints.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

I did not say they were too generous. The issue is if Disney offers a non-posted time variable it will add to the confusion. Either post the variable on the FP, add into the time on the FP or don't have one a variable at all. If it is not in writing adds to the confusion and eventually the complaints.

Ah, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding. It certainly would be more fair if they did that (and it would resolve a lot of this 'rule-breaking vs. acceptable' discussion), but Disney's going to do what they want to do. And I think they don't want to advertise the 20-minute grace period, because a lot of people will use it when they find out about it.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

But don't you think that your idea of going all the way over to the other side of the park just for a FP is precisely what they want to do away with? If you've got guests busy criss crossing the park and maximizing their time on rides, they aren't busy in shops or in lesser populated rides killing time. I think what you are talking about makes a lot of sense for the way you use FP, I just don't think it was the way Disney intended it to be used. Rather than you crossing the park to get that FP and then crossing back, I think they'd rather someone in Frontierland grab the FP and then watch Country Bears or hit Tom Sawyers Island or grab lunch.

Man I wish TSI still had an active restaurant on it.

Logically though, the way to best use the system at MK for example is to get a FP for something and then experience other attractions in that same area.

Example: In Adventureland JC is the only attraction with FP. Get one, then experience Pirates and Tiki and that should kill enough time for the FP to become valid. If you tend to start in Adventureland like me, you might not even need to GET a FP for JC.

Another example would be: In an area where there are multiple FP attractions, get a FP for the one with the longest wait, and use standby for the other attraction. Very often this will bring you off the standby attraction close to when you can use the FP. And now that they are allowing FPs 5 minutes early, having a little bit of time left before the window is less of an issue. This works great at Splash and Thunder.

I've never been one to go back and forth around the park collecting FPs and yet I still manage to experience quite a bit in one day. Yes, this is going to affect you more if you come during busier time periods, but for people coming during slower times, you should be able to experience the same amount of attractions, if not more.

 

[Fractal514]

I can't think of any reason Disney would care or actively deter walking across the park for a FP. You theoretically pass more opportunities to spend money by crossing the park as you would staying in one area.

Exactly, you are passing them and not stopping, because you are on a mission, and probably alone, while your family is elsewhere.