Backlash against Kathleen Kennedy and Star Wars in general

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That's sort of what i'm getting at - why should it matter what sexual orientation a character is when it has zero effect on the story itself? Why do the directors / story writers feel a need to do this? Is it politically motivated? Culturally motivated? Nobody should care as it provides absolutely nothing to the story.

Completely agree...

And this is where Hollywood can’t figure it out: by intentionally trying to be inclusive...they draw the divides deeper and often make the hate flow...

Sometimes a movie is just a movie.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

You used to have to pay much more in Vegas for that kinda show...

...so I’m told

Vegas? Where in Vegas? That's pure De Wallen and Reeperbahn. At least that's what a friend told me who read in on the internet.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

He's attracted to any thing. Not just anyone. Could be a toaster for all we know. If you think the interpretation by Billy Dee Williams of Lando in the original trilogy left any opening that Lando was bisexual or pansexual......you're nuts. Ironically Empire and ROTJ were written by Lawrence Kasdan. Ask him if Lucas envisioned the character that way.

It's the son (who was the co-writer on this flick) who wanted to leave his imprint - and he goes on to say: "There's a fluidity to Donald and Billy Dee's [portrayal of Lando’s] sexuality [...] I would have loved to have gotten a more explicitly LGBT character into this movie. I think it's time, certainly, for that, and I love the fluidity ― sort of the spectrum of sexuality that Donald appeals to and that droids are a part of. He doesn’t make any hard and fast rules."

This had nothing to do with character development. It was all about making a statement. Again......that's why there is backlash.

If they wanted to introduce that type of character.....fine.....go ahead. But don't take a defined, existing character, and just change him because you want to make a statement....which is exactly what the Kasdans and Kennedy did.

If you think that anything Lando did in the original trilogy precluded him being pansexual, you're nuts. All we know is that he flirts with Leia. Everything else he does in the movies is strictly related to rescuing people and blowing things up. Unless he explicitly states he is strictly heterosexual, there are other possibilities.

Once again, any character that happens to be anything other than heterosexual is "just there to make a statement". It only feels this way because we live in a hetero-normative world where that is the default. There are plenty of characters in movies where a character just happens to be defined as heterosexual, despite not doing anything romantic in the film. I doubt you complain about that,

 

[LittleBuford]

You're not understanding, let me break it down for you. If it has nothing to do with the story, sexual orientation SHOULD NOT MATTER. I don't walk around asking people if they are heterosexual, gay, pansexual, or the 200 different genders some people think they can be. Because I don't care and it doesn't affect me.




That's sort of what i'm getting at - why should it matter what sexual orientation a character is when it has zero effect on the story itself? Why do the directors / story writers feel a need to do this? Is it politically motivated? Culturally motivated? Nobody should care as it provides absolutely nothing to the story.

We live in a world where sexual orientation still does matter -- where LGBTQ people are called names, assaulted, and in some places killed, and where posters on a WDW forum get upset if a character in a franchise they like happens not to be straight. Dumbledore's sexuality may be an irrelevant annoyance to you, but it matters to countless non-straight people who feel underrepresented and marginalised. I (a gay man in my 30s) grew up seeing basically no gay characters on TV or in movies; I'm glad younger generations aren't having the same experience.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

You're not understanding, let me break it down for you. If it has nothing to do with the story, sexual orientation SHOULD NOT MATTER. I don't walk around asking people if they are heterosexual, gay, pansexual, or the 200 different genders some people think they can be. Because I don't care and it doesn't affect me.

That's sort of what i'm getting at - why should it matter what sexual orientation a character is when it has zero effect on the story itself? Why do the directors / story writers feel a need to do this? Is it politically motivated? Culturally motivated? Nobody should care as it provides absolutely nothing to the story.

It sure seems like it matters to you.

Characters often have traits that aren't directly related to the overall story.

If a character happens to be gay, or vegetarian, or whatever, it's just a little detail that fleshes them out.

Do you have any examples where you complained that a character was described as being heterosexual, despite it not impacting the story?

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Completely agree...

And this is where Hollywood can’t figure it out: by intentionally trying to be inclusive...they draw the divides deeper and often make the hate flow...

Sometimes a movie is just a movie.

So...

1) Hollywood puts pansexual character in movie.

2) People express hatred and intolerance.

3) Hollywood is therefore the source of the hate.

Nope. Hollywood isn't making anyone a bigot by being inclusive.

 

[DisneyFreak]

Overall, I just thought the L3 character was just plain annoying.

 

[flynnibus]

If you think that anything Lando did in the original trilogy precluded him being pansexual, you're nuts. All we know is that he flirts with Leia. Everything else he does in the movies is strictly related to rescuing people and blowing things up. Unless he explicitly states he is strictly heterosexual, there are other possibilities.

Once again, any character that happens to be anything other than heterosexual is "just there to make a statement". It only feels this way because we live in a hetero-normative world where that is the default. There are plenty of characters in movies where a character just happens to be defined as heterosexual, despite not doing anything romantic in the film. I doubt you complain about that,

The difference is when you insert elements that are tangental and not necessary to the development of the character or story.

Lando is laid out as a gambler, hussler, player, and guy who ultimately is out to save his own skin. Where does 'sentimental loss' plug into fueling who we see in the later films... or his interaction with Solo? What does inserting random sexuality into the story/character have to do with the plot objectives?

That Lando loses loved one while doing his risky business... so that sets up what?? That smuggling/outlaw work is risky??

That's why people get rubbed by these 'insertion of agendas' where people want to push higher visibility of different races, genders, sexual preferences, lifestyles, etc... when it really is nothing but to raise it's own visibility. That's what rubs people.... especially if they start retrocon'ing things.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

The difference is when you insert elements that are tangental and not necessary to the development of the character or story.

Lando is laid out as a gambler, hussler, player, and guy who ultimately is out to save his own skin. Where does 'sentimental loss' plug into fueling who we see in the later films... or his interaction with Solo? What does inserting random sexuality into the story/character have to do with the plot objectives?

That Lando loses loved one while doing his risky business... so that sets up what?? That smuggling/outlaw work is risky??

That's why people get rubbed by these 'insertion of agendas' where people want to push higher visibility of different races, genders, sexual preferences, lifestyles, etc... when it really is nothing but to raise it's own visibility. That's what rubs people.... especially if they start retrocon'ing things.

No one complains if a movie character is heterosexual, or complains that it is pushing an agenda.

The level and type of reaction to this, compared to any other character revelation one could name, speaks volumes.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So...

1) Hollywood puts pansexual character in movie.

2) People express hatred and intolerance.

3) Hollywood is therefore the source of the hate.

Nope. Hollywood isn't making anyone a bigot by being inclusive.

No...I’m not saying it’s their “fault”...I get their approach and agree with it. The problem is that it’s not being received in the intentions as they are designed.

By trying to “unite”, they are stirring a tribalism that is always there. Only Gene Roddenberry honestly ever solved it...it’s a mystery to all else.

I think with Star Wars in particular it’s not gonna Work. Mcu and Pixar is seeing great success. Two steps forward...one back.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

No one complains if a movie character is heterosexual, or complains that it is pushing an agenda.

The level and type of reaction to this, compared to any other character revelation one could name, speaks volumes.

Sucks to be on this planet sometimes, doesn’t it?

 

[Model3 McQueen]

We live in a world where sexual orientation still does matter -- where LGBTQ people are called names, assaulted, and in some places killed, and where posters on a WDW forum get upset if a character in a franchise they like happens not to be straight. Dumbledore's sexuality may be an irrelevant annoyance to you, but it matters to countless non-straight people who feel underrepresented and marginalised. I (a gay man in my 30s) grew up seeing basically no gay characters on TV or in movies; I'm glad younger generations aren't having the same experience.

Congratulations that you're gay, why should I treat you differently than I treat anyone else? Orientation shouldn't matter and only does because it keeps being brought up. I think there's a generation difference between you and I that has us looking at this through different points of view. LGBTQ aren't the only people being called names, being assaulted, or killed.

It sure seems like it matters to you.

Characters often have traits that aren't directly related to the overall story.

If a character happens to be gay, or vegetarian, or whatever, it's just a little detail that fleshes them out.

Do you have any examples where you complained that a character was described as being heterosexual, despite it not impacting the story?

 

[DisneyDoctor]

Sucks to be on this planet sometimes, doesn’t it?

Nope, never. We’re pretty lucky.

 

[LittleBuford]

Congratulations that you're gay, why should I treat you differently than I treat anyone else? Orientation shouldn't matter and only does because it keeps being brought up. I think there's a generation difference between you and I that has us looking at this through different points of view. LGBTQ aren't the only people being called names, being assaulted, or killed.

Your snide congratulations are unproductive and unwelcome. I never said you should treat me differently. On the contrary, what I and others are saying is the complete opposite: that your reaction to a character's being gay should be as untroubled as your reaction to a character's being straight. You claim it doesn't matter to you, but your own posts prove otherwise.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Congratulations that you're gay, why should I treat you differently than I treat anyone else? Orientation shouldn't matter and only does because it keeps being brought up. I think there's a generation difference between you and I that has us looking at this through different points of view. LGBTQ aren't the only people being called names, being assaulted, or killed.

You shouldn't treat people differently.

Complaining about LGBT characters in movies, but not about heterosexual characters, IS treating people differently.

 

[flynnibus]

No one complains if a movie character is heterosexual, or complains that it is pushing an agenda.

They do... when love stories are contrived and lumped in for no reason and detract... yes they do.

The point here isn't what sexual orientation he is... the point is... the version discussion or decision to decide it and raise it is the detractor in itself. It's manipulative and detracting from the story itself.

And hate to break it to you... but heterosexual is the majority... so complaining about the average or middle... in something where the sexuality isn't the point... would be pretty dumb.

The point missed is... elevating this topic when it's an unnecessary tangent is the distraction and forced element that rubs people.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

No...I’m not saying it’s their “fault”...I get their approach and agree with it. The problem is that it’s not being received in the intentions as they are designed.

By trying to “unite”, they are stirring a tribalism that is always there. Only Gene Roddenberry honestly ever solved it...it’s a mystery to all else.

I think with Star Wars in particular it’s not gonna Work. Mcu and Pixar is seeing great success. Two steps forward...one back.

So, the cliche that anyone in an oppressed or underrepresented-ed group should just be quiet, lest they offend? Just stay in the closet, so to speak?

 

[Model3 McQueen]

Your snide congratulations are unproductive and unwelcome. I never said you should treat me differently. On the contrary, what I and others are saying is the complete opposite: that your reaction to a character's being gay should be as untroubled as your reaction to a character's being straight. You claim it doesn't matter to you, but your own posts prove otherwise.

Not gonna take your bait here. Stop trying to make something out of nothing. My true point is that it shouldn't matter what orientation a character is. End of story.

You shouldn't treat people differently.

Complaining about LGBT characters in movies, but not about heterosexual characters, IS treating people differently.

I missed your earlier point, but I agree the Rose-Finn thing was a complete waste of time and did nothing for the story. Does that mean i'm complaining about straight characters in movies?

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

They do... when love stories are contrived and lumped in for no reason and detract... yes they do.

The point here isn't what sexual orientation he is... the point is... the version discussion or decision to decide it and raise it is the detractor in itself. It's manipulative and detracting from the story itself.

And hate to break it to you... but heterosexual is the majority... so complaining about the average or middle... in something where the sexuality isn't the point... would be pretty dumb.

The point missed is... elevating this topic when it's an unnecessary tangent is the distraction and forced element that rubs people.

It's absurd to suggest that the reaction to contrived or unnecessary heterosexual love stories is comparable to the reaction when we find out Lando is pansexual, or Dumbledore is gay, etc.

If it "rubs people the wrong way", it's because those people are bigots.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So, the cliche that anyone in an oppressed or underrepresented-ed group should just be quiet, lest they offend? Just stay in the closet, so to speak?

Absolutely not...and it’s beneath you to continually stir the pot on this with gotchas and not speak plainly.

Humans are animals...incredibly complex - but still that. They have instincts and tendencies that are difficult to suppress. Not that we shouldn’t work towards that...but the battle will never be over.

But...as @flynnibus pointed out - equal representation is not reflective of the populace.

African American is around 11% and falling. Remember the outcry about oscars a few years ago? Well demographically speaking there would be one actor/director/actress every 2 years and it would be statistically appropriate.

LGBTQ is around 5%? Maybe 10? Then one dominant character every 10-20 movies is technically valid.

I don’t want to be misunderstood here: I don’t need walker, Texas ranger (and there’s an interesting character) in every Star Wars movie...
...but putting Norris in the back seat doesn’t make sense either. It’s not a 1:1 scenario.

What should be the Big issue in the US is the female representation....win that battle FIRST and the others will go much more smoothly.

How has THAT been going???

Again...this planet sucks