AVATAR progress

[spacemt354]

The Extra TERRORestrial Alien Encounter replaced Mission to Mars. Mickey's PhilharMagic replaced Legend of the Lion King. Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters replaced Take Flight. The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh replaced Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

Yup. Already knew that. I'm assuming you are stating this because I said "addition" when in reality it is technically a "substitution". Nevertheless, aside from Stitch, I do feel the substituted attractions "added" more to the park, and thus why I included them as such.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Kiddie coaster describes more than just the pure coaster experience. It also describes the demographic aim and creative ambitions. It is not a big, complex project.

 

[spacemt354]

Kiddie coaster describes more than just the pure coaster experience. It also describes the demographic aim and creative ambitions. It is not a big, complex project.

If this is the case then I would feel the SDMT is a family coaster. Demographically aiming to suit all ages with the creative ambitions to add depth and storytelling to mini-land surrounding one of Disney's classic tales. That sounds like a much more accurate depiction than kiddie coaster.

 

[doctornick]

NoChesterHester's example was not meant to be taken literally, at least in my interpretation. Yes, Dinoland area doesn't really need another attraction, but it was a hypothetical situation, in which the bigger message was that C-tickets are necessary and important for theme parks, and their significance in parks tends to be neglected since everyone is thinking E-tickets. If there are ever two parks that DON'T really need E-tickets, It would be DHS and DAK. They are set for the most part in that category, though 1 more in each park wouldn't hurt. What these parks need are filler attractions. Rides like TTA, or a flat ride, or an indoor dark ride. Not something spectacular or life-changing, but something to spread out crowds and give people more options, especially options for the whole family, since some thrilling E-tickets split up families due to motion sickness or physical aliments, etc.

Bingo. Would it be great to see DHS or DAK add a big draw E-ticket? Oh course. But is the biggest need at either of those parks headline attractions? Absolutely not. Where they both really come short is that they need more "filler" rides, the C-ticket attractions that are enjoyable and have repeat value despite not being the biggest and greatest. They need them; in fact, both parks need quite a few of them.

If TDO announced that they were adding 3 dark rides/flat rides to either DAK or DHS, I'd commend them and I wouldn't be asking "where's the E-ticket?". Because they desperately need such attractions. That's the kind of thing that is going to help their rep as being "half day parks" because there isn't enough that interests a lot of guests, especially if you don't like shows (DHS and DAK to some extent) or animal exhibits (DAK). I actually think the headliner attractions at both parks are quite good with ToT/RNR/Star Tours at DHS and E:E/Dinosaur/KS at DAK -- again, another E-ticket at each would be great, especially in terms of spreading crowds around but isn't as key of a desperate a need as more smaller family rides.

 

[doctornick]

I don't think that's necessarily true though truth be told, that area doesn't need another ride. I think people would take issue if that was the ONLY ride going in when the park needs so much more. It needs another E ticket desperately before it needs smaller rides.

Couldn't disagree more. DAK literally has one ride that is accessible to most every guest (Triceratops Spin) -- even KS is fairly bumpy and uncomfortable for some people to ride and all the others are height restricted. While certainly adding a new E-ticket would be a good thing, it is not what the park "desperately" needs.

I've said before, but I'd support them adding some of the Bug's Land rides to Discovery Island.

That's my big concern about Avatar, as the rumor has it only adding two rides, with one likely being another height restricted E-ticket plan. And with the possibility of the second ride being only another walk through. Which is all fine and good, but isn't going to get people to stay in the park much longer than they are or stay for dinner and such. A two ride Avatar Land is a okay start, but where's all the other capacity increasing family rides that the park needs?

 

[bubbles1812]

Couldn't disagree more. DAK literally has one ride that is accessible to most every guest (Triceratops Spin) -- even KS is fairly bumpy and uncomfortable for some people to ride and all the others are height restricted. While certainly adding a new E-ticket would be a good thing, it is not what the park "desperately" needs.

I've said before, but I'd support them adding some of the Bug's Land rides to Discovery Island.

That's my big concern about Avatar, as the rumor has it only adding two rides, with one likely being another height restricted E-ticket plan. And with the possibility of the second ride being only another walk through. Which is all fine and good, but isn't going to get people to stay in the park much longer than they are or stay for dinner and such. A two ride Avatar Land is a okay start, but where's all the other capacity increasing family rides that the park needs?

I won't argue with you that AK needs another ride through like it needs a hole in the head. It definitely needs another few C tickets... If Disney does axe the C ticket (a good possibility), it will be a poor decision on their part. That being said, the park has attendance problems as well as "keeping people in the park problems" once they are actually there. It needs another E ticket to help solve the problem of getting people into the park period. I can't tell you how many people I know who skip AK. DAK needs both smaller rides and bigger rides. Avatar is a start, but yeah, it's certainly not going to be enough to solve all of DAK's problems.

And if people can't even tolerate KS... I don't know. That ride is not that bumpy. Disney can only go so far in making things accessible for everyone. I don't think it needs dark rides up the yin yang... Which it kind of feels like you are suggesting it needs. I don't want AK to be the MK. It should be a bit (notice I said just a bit) more wild.

 

[spacemt354]

That being said, the park has attendance problems as well as "keeping people in the park problems" once they are actually there. It needs another E ticket to help solve the problem of getting people into the park period. I can't tell you how many people I know who skip AK. DAK needs both smaller rides and bigger rides. Avatar is a start, but yeah, it's certainly not going to be enough to solve all of DAK's problems.

And if people can't even tolerate KS... I don't know. That ride is not that bumpy. Disney can only go so far in making things accessible for everyone. I don't think it needs dark rides up the yin yang... Which it kind of feels like you are suggesting it needs. I don't want AK to be the MK. It should be a bit (notice I said just a bit) more wild.

In regards to the bolded, DAK really doesn't have an issue of getting people to the park when compared to the issue of keeping people in the park. 2012 Park attendance numbers have DAK ranked 7th in the world, just shy of 10 million guests. That's a lot of people. And I think if Avatar is a success, those numbers will rise even higher. But how many of those 10 million guests stay the whole day? I'd venture to guess not too many. That is why I believe doctornick and myself support the notion of family filler attractions over the big, E-ticket, height restricted attractions.

KS is quite bumpy. Especially when you go over the bridge that appears like it's going to collapse and such. That is why they have the health warning on the map and attraction board in regards to KS.

"Dark rides up the ying yang" is not what is being suggested. All theme parks should be distinct in their offerings, however DAK has enough walk through attractions. Basically one in every land. While those can be considered family attractions, families traveling with kids and elderly can't stay out in the Florida heat all day long (that's why we leave at lunch) What DAK needs are indoor attractions. Doesn't have to be a classic dark ride persay, however, rides (and even a good show) indoors that the whole family can enjoy would be a nice balance to the park. And as I said before, another E-ticket wouldn't hurt, which is what I hope Avatar brings to the table. However, with Avatar, I feel the park as a whole needs the C-ticket family ride much more than it does the E-ticket height restricted ride.

 

[space42]

"Dark rides up the ying yang" is not what is being suggested. All theme parks should be distinct in their offerings, however DAK has enough walk through attractions. Basically one in every land. While those can be considered family attractions, families traveling with kids and elderly can't stay out in the Florida heat all day long (that's why we leave at lunch) What DAK needs are indoor attractions. Doesn't have to be a classic dark ride persay, however, rides (and even a good show) indoors that the whole family can enjoy would be a nice balance to the park. And as I said before, another E-ticket wouldn't hurt, which is what I hope Avatar brings to the table. However, with Avatar, I feel the park as a whole needs the C-ticket family ride much more than it does the E-ticket height restricted ride.

How about an E-ticket family attraction like Pirates, Mansion, Small World, 20k Leagues, Jungle Cruise, Horizons, Original Imagination, etc.. you know, the type of rides that made WDW a world class family vacation destination... That's what BOTH MGM and DAK need along with a few smaller attractions / shows to round them out. I'd say both parks need at least 6 - 7 additional attractions to make them full day experiences.

 

[spacemt354]

How about an E-ticket family attraction like Pirates, Mansion, Small World, 20k Leagues, Jungle Cruise, Horizons, Original Imagination, etc.. you know, the type of rides that made WDW a world class family vacation destination... That's what BOTH MGM and DAK need along with a few smaller attractions / shows to round them out. I'd say both parks need at least 6 - 7 additional attractions to make them full day experiences.

That would be nice, but at least in the near future, I don't see them adding 6-7 attractions to each park. In regards to those E-tickets you listed of course, please that would be wonderful. I was specifically talking about height-restricted E-tickets, however variations of the attractions you listed would be great.

 

[doctornick]

That being said, the park has attendance problems as well as "keeping people in the park problems" once they are actually there. It needs another E ticket to help solve the problem of getting people into the park period. I can't tell you how many people I know who skip AK.

DAK doesn't have a "getting people into the park" issue as much as a "keeping them in the park for more than 3 hours" problem. People do go to the park, but only stay for a few hours. And, yes, some people do skip the park entirely. And the main factor driving all that is that there just "isn't enough to do". A solitary E-ticket isn't going to solve that and neither is an Avatar Land with only 2 rides (assuming it actually gets 2 rides).

To get people to stay in the park, there needs to be more activities, especially for guests who aren't interested in walking around on the animal trails. And, as mentioned, there's not a lot to do indoors which can play a big role if it is very hot or having a lot of rain.

And if people can't even tolerate KS... I don't know. That ride is not that bumpy. Disney can only go so far in making things accessible for everyone. I don't think it needs dark rides up the yin yang... Which it kind of feels like you are suggesting it needs. I don't want AK to be the MK. It should be a bit (notice I said just a bit) more wild.

Sure there's a limit to how far that Disney should go to make things accessible to everyone -- and they are no where near that limit for DAK. If one cannot handle thrill rides, then the options there are basically shows or animal trails. Which is fine, but is not appealing to a lot of guests.

No one is suggesting that they remake the park into only having dark rides, but starting with, I dunno, one dark ride in the park would be a good thing. The relaxing, but immersive experiences is what made Disney into the theme park destination it is today because they have broad appeal and good repeatability and basically missing from DAK. Where is the PotC or HM for DAK? The types of rides that become a draw for the experience, not the thrill.

I don't want DAK to be "a copy of the MK, but with animals", but I do certainly want it to be a lot more like MK than not like it. There's some good reasons why MK is the most visited theme park in the world and having a ton of different rides with different experiences that are accessible to everyone is a big part of it. I actually think DAK is the best park at WDW; it's great to just walk around in and take in the ambiance but not everyone enjoys that. It needs more attractions to keep people occupied and wanting to come back.

 

[spacemt354]

DAK doesn't have a "getting people into the park" issue as much as a "keeping them in the park for more than 3 hours" problem. People do go to the park, but only stay for a few hours. And, yes, some people do skip the park entirely. And the main factor driving that is that there just "isn't enough to do". A solitary E-ticket isn't going to sovle that and neither is an Avatar Land with only 2 rides (assuming it gets 2 rides).

To get people to stay in the park, there needs to be more activities, especially for guests who aren't interested in walking around on the animal trails. And, as mentioned, there's not a lot to do indoors which can play a big role if it is very hot or having a lot of rain.



Sure there's a limit to how far that Disney should go to make things accessable to everyone -- and they are no where near that limit for DAK. If one cannot handle thrill rides, then the options there are basically shows or animal trails. Which is fine, but is not appealing to a lot of guests.

No one is suggesting that they remake the park into only having dark rides, but starting with, I dunno, one dark ride in the park would be a good thing. The relaxing, but immersive experiences is what made Disney into the theme park destination it is today because they have broad appeal and good repeatability. Where is the PotC or HM for DAK? The types of rides that become a draw for the experience, not the thrill.

I don't want DAK to be a copy of the MK, but with animals, but I do certainly want it to be a lot more like MK than not like it. There's some good reasons why MK is the most visited theme park in the world and having a ton of different rides with different experiences that are accessable to everyone is a big part of it. I actually think DAK is the best park at WDW; it's great to just walk around in and take in the ambiance but not everyone enjoys that. It needs more attractions to keep people occupied and wanting to come back.

This 100%

 

[NoChesterHester]

How about an E-ticket family attraction like Pirates, Mansion, Small World, 20k Leagues, Jungle Cruise, Horizons, Original Imagination, etc.. you know, the type of rides that made WDW a world class family vacation destination... That's what BOTH MGM and DAK need along with a few smaller attractions / shows to round them out. I'd say both parks need at least 6 - 7 additional attractions to make them full day experiences.

In fairness to Animal Kingdom, if you do the animal exhibits, which take up the vast amount of land area in the park it is absolutely a full day experience. The park wasn't designed from the beginning to be a ride heavy park.

I feel there is technically enough to do at Hollywood Studios for an entire day, but the reality is that the offerings that do exist just aren't that good. Mix that in with half the park being downright ugly and you have the recipe for a pretty underwhelming experience. Compare Disney's Hollywood Studios of today with Disney MGM Studios of July 1994 (When TOT opened) and the park is a shadow of its own self.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I was just wondering about the Festival of the Lion King theater relocation prep work for Avatar. The old theater doesn't have to be demolished. It could be repurposed for Avatar. That would give the project more bang for the buck as there would be one less structure needing to get built from scratch, and stretch that $400 million a tiny bit more...

It sounds like this type of action is more likely in Echo Lake where dining facilities may be repurposed. Universal did this at IOA with Harry Potter. They wrapped the kitchen of one of the restaurants and rebuilt the new restaurant around it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Looking at the layout of the track, combined with the swinging motion of the cars, I think this is going to be a little more then a kiddie coaster. Not going to be as thrilling as BTMRR, but it definitely looks like it's going to be more then Goffini.

Let's not pretend that Big Thunder Mountain is a super intense coaster either. It is an incredibly well themed, but ultimately tame "Family" coaster. We're arbitarily defining things like "Kiddy Coaster" or "Family Coaster", but saying something is a Kiddy Coaster doesn't mean that it can't be a quality attraction. Goofini is a kiddy coaster with poor theming and a short ride time. That doesn't mean that all other kiddy coasters have to have poor theming and a short ride time.

 

[BryceM]

I was at DAK today. Very beautiful park, but it was hot as hell. I live in Florida and I'm used to the heat, but today at DAK it was almost unbearable. I only did three rides (Expedition Everest, DINOSAUR and Kilamanjaro Safaris). Did DINOSAUR twice and Expedition Everest three times. We were done at 3:30, but it was honestly because of the heat. I did want to stay longer for Kali and a few more rides on my favorites, but we couldn't do it. I also lost my wallet, so that sucked.

I thought the new laser effects on DINOSAUR were very cool, though I thought they could have been timed better.

I did notice a crane and a lot of construction just past the construction walls in Africa. Is this preparation for Avatar?

 

[doctornick]

In fairness to Animal Kingdom, if you do the animal exhibits, which take up the vast amount of land area in the park it is absolutely a full day experience. The park wasn't designed from the beginning to be a ride heavy park.

Absolutely. I think it is easy to be occupied at DAK for a full day despite the lack of rides. But a person has to want to do the animal trails and shows and soak in the ambiance of the park. And that's not for everyone. For many typical guests, they want rides, rides and more rides and DAK (and DHS) falls short for their expectations. And I don't think that Disney can just write off such sentiment, unless they want to be losing more guests to Uni.

The sad thing is that there is a ton of opportunity for rides that would fit into the theme of DAK well and would expand the park's offerings -- and even be relatively cheap to build. I've rpeviously mentioned that some of the It's a Bug's Land rides could be added to Discovery Island. They could do some Fantasyland style dark rides/omni movers themed to any of the many animal IPs (Bambi, Jungle Book, Rescuers, 101 Dalmatians, Lady and the Tramp, even Pocahontas, Tarzan etc.). The could have a more relaxing boat ride or Omnimover themed to prehistoric times or dinosaurs (as a more inclusive experience than Dinosaur). And let's not forget how you could make some pretty cool rides themed to Unicorns/Dragon/Loch Ness Monster if they wanted to revist Beastley Kingdomme as a concept.

Hell, do a whimsical parody of themselves and have "It's a Small World" where all the AAs are animals from all continents.

There's stuff that can be done. There just has to be the will -- and money -- to do it. the first step is recognizing that by investing in park attractions that it will get people to spend more days and/or more hours at the parks and help to generate repeat visits or good word of mouth. Long time at the parks or more days is more merch and food sales. There's certainly benefits, though it would be tough to predict and measure.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Just to stir the pot a bit on our unrelated side topic, Birnbaum's of course makes the "official" Disney World guide, and here is something interesting in their 2014 guide description:

"As the pixie dust settles on the newly-expanded Fantasyland, Birnbaum describes everything this Magic Kingdom neighborhood has to offer, including the highly-anticipated Seven Dwarfs Mine Train coaster-an E-Ticket attraction for the whole family."

Disney is apparently trying to sell the Mine Train as an E-Ticket...we'll see how that works for them. Haven't they already run into trouble by building up overly-high expectaions for New Fantasyland?

 

[NoChesterHester]

Just to stir the pot a bit on our unrelated side topic, Birnbaum's of course makes the "official" Disney World guide, and here is something interesting in their 2014 guide description:

"As the pixie dust settles on the newly-expanded Fantasyland, Birnbaum describes everything this Magic Kingdom neighborhood has to offer, including the highly-anticipated Seven Dwarfs Mine Train coaster-an E-Ticket attraction for the whole family."

Disney is apparently trying to sell the Mine Train as an E-Ticket...we'll see how that works for them. Haven't they already run into trouble by building up overly-high expectaions for New Fantasyland?

I think it will be a nice addition. Hard to imagine it as an E-ticket based on what we know about it.

 

[PeterAlt]

Just a thought, If AK is named after a Muppet,and the Muppets are really just animals (small 'a'), why don't we move them all to DAK and play on Animal's (big 'A') bloated ego?

 

[John]

Absolutely. I think it is easy to be occupied at DAK for a full day despite the lack of rides. But a person has to want to do the animal trails and shows and soak in the ambiance of the park. And that's not for everyone. For many typical guests, they want rides, rides and more rides and DAK (and DHS) falls short for their expectations. And I don't think that Disney can just write off such sentiment, unless they want to be losing more guests to Uni.

The sad thing is that there is a ton of opportunity for rides that would fit into the theme of DAK well and would expand the park's offerings -- and even be relatively cheap to build. I've rpeviously mentioned that some of the It's a Bug's Land rides could be added to Discovery Island. They could do some Fantasyland style dark rides/omni movers themed to any of the many animal IPs (Bambi, Jungle Book, Rescuers, 101 Dalmatians, Lady and the Tramp, even Pocahontas, Tarzan etc.). The could have a more relaxing boat ride or Omnimover themed to prehistoric times or dinosaurs (as a more inclusive experience than Dinosaur). And let's not forget how you could make some pretty cool rides themed to Unicorns/Dragon/Loch Ness Monster if they wanted to revist Beastley Kingdomme as a concept.

Hell, do a whimsical parody of themselves and have "It's a Small World" where all the AAs are animals from all continents.

There's stuff that can be done. There just has to be the will -- and money -- to do it. the first step is recognizing that by investing in park attractions that it will get people to spend more days and/or more hours at the parks and help to generate repeat visits or good word of mouth. Long time at the parks or more days is more merch and food sales. There's certainly benefits, though it would be tough to predict and measure.

Answer = wristbands = fail