AVATAR land coming to Disney's Animal Kingdom

[WDW1974]

So in this reality we live in that DAK needs expansion, would you not have been in favor of Mysterious Island as we know it? Believe me, I definitely agree that DAK should have a Dragon as a marquee animal in the park, but I don't think that precludes them adding other made up animals that have found their way into popular culture. The creatures of Avatar have done that to a certain extent, as has the Lava Monster in TDS.

MI wouldn't have been a good fit for DAK either ... not in the same presentation it has in Tokyo.
And, FWIW, it wouldn't have been built as a copy either ... (although I actually saw the model from TDS sitting on top of CMM once years ago!)

I think this idea that it had to blue aliens from a FOX film with a crazy creator in Cameron versus any of the ideas that Joe and his team had (or would have been able to come up with) was lazy, weak and knee-jerk.

This is still giant blue alien sex kittens against an evil para-military force (clearly made up of ex US military types) set on genocide for something a six-year-old would think up -- unobtanium (I literally laughed my off when I heard that for the first dozen times). People can be excited as they wish over this (although since we know nothing about it, I don't see anything to be excited for) and it doesn't alter the fact that it is a very bad fit for where it is going.

 

[bunnyman]

Bad example that gets tossed around because Disney and its consultants use it. ... Compare Disney to other theme parks and to what it used to offer and what if offers elsewhere for what you pay. But don't compare it to an NBA game or a Broadway play or concert. It's apples to grapefruit. And if you use that metric, you can then argue that a day at DAK is worth $175 a day ... maybe a day at DL should be $250? Believe me, that's a comparison you don't want to buy into and spread in the fan community because all you are doing is help back up Disney's Power Points.

I agree...and disagree. I see it as the what you have available to spend entertainment dollar. I get paid, pay bills, save a little, and have "x" dollars left for my entertainment. Yes, you can't compare what it costs to travel to WDW inclusive of getting there, lodging, food, etc. vs. going to a ballgame, Broadway show, concert, etc. But, if I know I’m going on a vacation, and decide to go to say Florida and visit WDW for a weekend, or decide to travel to say NYC for a weekend and attend attractions there, then I can make the comparison of WDW ticket prices vs. show or ballgame tickets, meals, etc. All I want to point out is when you strip away the cost of getting to either point A or point B, when you now compare the cost of staying, eating, and going to the parks at WDW, it compares favorably with staying, eating, and buying other forms of entertainment tickets at another location. And as someone pointed out in an earlier message, your day at a WDW park could be very long vs. a 2 or 3 hour show, concert, or game.

If I were visiting family in Florida, and decided to take the family to WDW for the day, the cost to park, eat, and enter the Magic Kingdom is not that bad if not better than driving into NYC for the day, parking (at $25 or more), paying to take the family to a Broadway show which only last for at most three hours, and eating in a restaurant. The same can also be said for going to a ballgame.

 

[WDW1974]

No one is right. No one is wrong. It's their opinion, let them have it. Just like that is your opinion. Don't go around telling other people that your own idea is right and their own idea is wrong. I have no problem with anything you say, except for that.

Anyone is free to have whatever opinion they want.

All I am saying is they are not all created equally. That's just life.

 

[Lee]

You can degrade their opinion....

And I shall...

 

[bubbles1812]

This is one of those times you have to choose whether or not to believe me, because I can't reveal why I know this.

American WDW attendance has flatlined while foreign attendance has risen. Disney offers incredible discounts to other countries, a pricing strategy that has helped keep attendance where it is. But even those guests are complaining about the prices they pay, and merch sales are very low, so who knows where this is going to end up.

I would totally believe it tirian. I've seen it. I've seen friends reduce the amount of trips they take or stop going all together, not necessarily because they want to but because at a certain point, they are just outpriced. If foreign guests start experiencing that too (am guessing Disney starts removing some of those discounts to foreigners, you just know it is a matter of time), they will be in trouble from an attendance standpoint. No attendance growth is a problem.

And not shocking at all about the merch sales...why would you buy something that you could have bought 5 years ago at a cheaper price? Taking out the unique merchandise in favor of the generic crap to reduce costs has clearly backfired big time. I definitely buy less and less each time I'm there. Think they would be making so much more money with WDW specific merchandise even with the higher production cost. Look at the bonanza of cash Universal is making of the HP resort specific merchandise...it pays to produce high quality special products. People will buy them. And I don't think vinylmation is turning out quite to be the collector's item Disney thought it would be for something that was made to be sort of special to the parks.

 

[RSoxNo1]

True. But sporting events and theaters don't have other costs along with them, as usually people attending those events are local or in the same region. Much of WDW's visitor base either has a flight or long drive between them and WDW. That's in addition to a few meals a day and a hotel room and maybe a rental car.

That is a valid point. The cost for the opportunity to get that $100 1 day pass is often steeper than the cost to get to a stadium or theater.

Bad example that gets tossed around because Disney and its consultants use it. ... Compare Disney to other theme parks and to what it used to offer and what if offers elsewhere for what you pay. But don't compare it to an NBA game or a Broadway play or concert. It's apples to grapefruit. And if you use that metric, you can then argue that a day at DAK is worth $175 a day ... maybe a day at DL should be $250? Believe me, that's a comparison you don't want to buy into and spread in the fan community because all you are doing is help back up Disney's Power Points.

Yes, it’s apples and oranges, but it’s still Entertainment in the simplest sense. A few years ago I was talking with the General Manager of the Durham Bulls, a minor league baseball team for those unfamiliar. I asked him if his competition was college basketball and other sporting events. His response was simple – “No, we’re competing with movie theaters”. Basically, you have to look at similar things as a point of comparison. For a Disney World local, if the choice was to go to a theater at $100, go to an Orlando Magic game for $100, or go to Disney World, it’s safe to say that the cost benefit would show you’d get more for your money at Disney World. However, the reality is that for most people it costs more to get to Disney World than those who were planning on going to the theater or a Magic game.

Other Entertainment has to be considered, but just like a sporting event to Disney World isn’t an even comparison, neither is your local Six Flags.

MI wouldn't have been a good fit for DAK either ... not in the same presentation it has in Tokyo.

And, FWIW, it wouldn't have been built as a copy either ... (although I actually saw the model from TDS sitting on top of CMM once years ago!)

I think this idea that it had to blue aliens from a FOX film with a crazy creator in Cameron versus any of the ideas that Joe and his team had (or would have been able to come up with) was lazy, weak and knee-jerk.

This is still giant blue alien sex kittens against an evil para-military force (clearly made up of ex US military types) set on genocide for something a six-year-old would think up -- unobtanium (I literally laughed my off when I heard that for the first dozen times). People can be excited as they wish over this (although since we know nothing about it, I don't see anything to be excited for) and it doesn't alter the fact that it is a very bad fit for where it is going.

This is part of the problem with Animal Kingdom and Epcot, they are both unique experiences that it’s hard to justify cloning something from there and all of the attractions would have to be original (for the most part) to fit into the theme. You could argue that Disney Sea has the same “problem” but they found a magnificent way of getting around this – spending money.

As for Avatar’s fit. It’s loose at best. I didn’t think Mysterious Island was a great fit either, and I still maintain that an area based on traditional mythical animals would be a better fit than all of these. I don’t think the original incarnation of Beastly Kingdom is the way to go, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t have an attraction based off a dragon. Yes, Harry Potter exists down the road, but if Disney still believes that the mythical animals are the draw for Islands of Adventure/Harry Potter/Lost Continent, they are delusional.

 

[WDW1974]

Why should the concept of the "animal kingdom" be limited solely to life on Earth? It strains to credulity to believe that life exists nowhere else in our galaxy (let alone the universe) and the term "animal kingdom" would right encompass any living creatures that remotely resembled our carbon based biology.

It's a fairly obvious, natural extension of the theme with a nice parallel as the Tomorrowland of Animal Kingdom. Frankly, mythical animals are a bigger thematic stretch in my opinion.

Oh gawd ... a discussion on why aliens belong in a park all about creatures from Earth ... and why this can be twisted to include giant blue sex kitten aliens and their dragon-like companions and upside down trees.

Hey, you know I like Conan O'Brien ... and he has had animals on his show ... and he is a living being ... can we have a Conaria now? I'm sure WDI can create all sorts of experience ... maybe include a Soarin Over Andy Richter attraction?

Fans wonder why their parks are boring messes where theme is muddled and decoration gets confused with theme ... where Disney's BRAND is more important than storytelling and immersing people ...yet, they make excuses to warp the rules so they can have whatever they wany and so we get bad ideas like this one.

 

[threeyoda]

Anyone is free to have whatever opinion they want.

All I am saying is they are not all created equally. That's just life.

Ok, that's fair

 

[WDW1974]

You can degrade their opinion, but you can't deem it wrong to them. Opinion is not fact, it is what YOU believe.

Oh ... why is my (very important) phone call delayed? Why is it giving me time to answer stuff like this.

No, opinion can be and quite often is WRONG.

You can believe that the Earth is flat. You are wrong.
You can believe that whatever group of people you don't like (fanbois in my case) are lesser human beings than your chosen group. You are wrong.
You can believe that kissing causes AIDS. You are wrong.
You can believe that McDonald's serves the best beef available. You are wrong.
You can believe the Chevy Impala is the best built car on the road. You are wrong.
You can believe Wall Street isn't a fraud. You are wrong.
You can believe companies don't pay people to be active in social media sites. You are wrong.

How long would you like me to go on?

OPINION is very often wrong and while people are entitled to be wrong, they also can be called on their opinions when they are.

You CAN believe whatever you like, but you can also live in ignorance because you have crazy beliefs. That's up to everyone.

 

[ChrisM]

I am under the impression (and will look it up shortly) that DAK is about Man's relationship with the Earth and its animal life, including creatures of (Earth's) folklore. Not about what creatures may exist out on Betelgeuse.

Personally, I don't see a need for DAK to have a Tomorrowland...or Adventureland. It's theme is strong enough to carry a whole park.

Saying "DAK is about Man's relationship with the Earth and its animal life" is really just a more narrow way of saying "DAK is about Man's relationship with nature". Both are manifestly true. "Nature" just so happens to encompass a heck of a lot more than the Earth.

I can understand that such an idea may not be the preferred direction for this park's expansion but it's neither ridiculous or even much of a thematic stretch.

(And the likelihood of Betelgeuse, as a red supergiant, harboring a planetary system that supports life is vanishingly small.)

 

[dxwwf3]

Really? Hypothetical alien biology and ecology somehow fits into DAK's theme?
I don't see it at all. I'll go read through my DAK literature and try to see if aliens are mentioned anywhere. Sounds more like Tomorrowland to me..

It's not cartoony enough to fit into the MK's Tomorrowland now

 

[WDW1974]

This is one of those times you have to choose whether or not to believe me, because I can't reveal why I know this.

American WDW attendance has flatlined while foreign attendance has risen. Disney offers incredible discounts to other countries, a pricing strategy that has helped keep attendance where it is. But even those guests are complaining about the prices they pay, and merch sales are very low, so who knows where this is going to end up.

I believe you because of two reasons:

1.) i know and respect your views here and;
2.) I have been told the same thing by others in the company.

Which really makes me wonder what highly-refined (did they include the cannibal-inducing bath salts?) blend of Pixie Dust they are smoking at TDO to make them believe that on average a 25% across the board price increase next year is not going to result in disaster ... or just more massive discounting than ever.

 

[ChrisM]

Oh gawd ... a discussion on why aliens belong in a park all about creatures from Earth ... and why this can be twisted to include giant blue sex kitten aliens and their dragon-like companions and upside down trees.

Hey, you know I like Conan O'Brien ... and he has had animals on his show ... and he is a living being ... can we have a Conaria now? I'm sure WDI can create all sorts of experience ... maybe include a Soarin Over Andy Richter attraction?

Fans wonder why their parks are boring messes where theme is muddled and decoration gets confused with theme ... where Disney's BRAND is more important than storytelling and immersing people ...yet, they make excuses to warp the rules so they can have whatever they wany and so we get bad ideas like this one.

You insist upon yourself.

The relationship is clear. That you don't grok it is amusing, in a troubling sort of way. It makes me vaguely fretful that the self-styled paragon of right thinking on these fora is so deliberately obtuse, but I've endured enough trips on the turnip cart to not be surprised when our bright cities on a hill show their cracks or the occasional rotten foundation.

And while I agree with you the vast majority of the time, save for your love of Star Trek, your bizarre love of emoticons, and your general mistreatment of the rubes (the very people that need your love and guidance the most), you've whiffed badly on this one.

The Avatar franchise deal may indeed be a bad one. But it absolutely can fit naturally (zing!) in the park.

 

[invader]

Oh ... why is my (very important) phone call delayed? Why is it giving me time to answer stuff like this.

No, opinion can be and quite often is WRONG.

You can believe that the Earth is flat. You are wrong.
You can believe that whatever group of people you don't like (fanbois in my case) are lesser human beings than your chosen group. You are wrong.
You can believe that kissing causes AIDS. You are wrong.
You can believe that McDonald's serves the best beef available. You are wrong.
You can believe the Chevy Impala is the best built car on the road. You are wrong.
You can believe Wall Street isn't a fraud. You are wrong.
You can believe companies don't pay people to be active in social media sites. You are wrong.

How long would you like me to go on?

OPINION is very often wrong and while people are entitled to be wrong, they also can be called on their opinions when they are.

You CAN believe whatever you like, but you can also live in ignorance because you have crazy beliefs. That's up to everyone.

Opinion is based on facts, and/or ignorance. It is your perception on the idea/reality at hand. Opinion can't be wrong to the person it belongs to. Sure, it can be wrong to a person built of more intelligence and facts but it doesn't make it wrong to that distinct person who owns the opinion. It's like some people believing that WDW is in the best shape it's ever been and Universal is nowhere close. That's their opinion, and you may see to it as being wrong but they don't and you can't change that.

 

[xdan0920]

I believe you because of two reasons:

1.) i know and respect your views here and;
2.) I have been told the same thing by others in the company.

Which really makes me wonder what highly-refined (did they include the cannibal-inducing bath salts?) blend of Pixie Dust they are smoking at TDO to make them believe that on average a 25% across the board price increase next year is not going to result in disaster ... or just more massive discounting than ever.

I tend to believe Tirian as well. Just based on my own anecdotal evidence there does seem to be a high percentage of foreign guests over the past couple of years.

As far as the pricing dilemma. I will bet my newly purchased house on this exact scenario playing out, if TDO raises the prices in the way you are claiming they will. WDW raises prices >>> Bookings fall off precipitously >>> DIsney has to go back on their phasing out discounts policy even more then they already have >>> Attendance levels out again >>> Many celebrate that WDW is still the #1 theme park destination in the world by attendance figures >>> Mediocrity continues.

For the record, I am actually in favor of ticket price increases, hotel price increases, not food though, that is already priced to ridiculous levels. IF....they are for a premium product. WDW should be the most expensive theme park in the world. It should also be the best, the most forward thinking, the most cutting edge, the most beautiful, the most options, the most everything. Charge me a super premium price, but for gods sake, give me a super premium experience.

 

[Bolna]

If foreign guests start experiencing that too (am guessing Disney starts removing some of those discounts to foreigners, you just know it is a matter of time), they will be in trouble from an attendance standpoint.

Looking at who you would call "foreigners" (I am one of them, that's why I can't use that term ) Disney is going to face two problems in the near future I think: Oil and Euro.

The first if obvious. If you look at flight prices those have gone up recently - and if you think that they went up a lot for the relatively short flights within the USA, what do you think rising oil prices will do to intercontinental flights. And there is no way of driving across the Atlantic (even though Google Maps at one time gave you a route for that...).

If (still don't want to say "when") the Euro collapses this will most likely create a really serious recession in Europe and I am pretty sure that that will spread to quite a few countries outside the Euro zone. Just like the financial crises in 2008 that originated in the US sent the world economy all the way down. And if you aren't sure you are going to have a job tomorrow you are most likely to think twice about a vacation that already starts with a price tag of 1.000 $ for transportation per person alone.

I think foreign guests are the first to disappear in any economic crisis, so I am not sure whether they should build too much on them.

 

[ChrisM]

Opinion is based on facts, and/or ignorance. It is your perception on the idea/reality at hand. Opinion can't be wrong to the person it belongs to. Sure, it can be wrong to a person built of more intelligence and facts but it doesn't make it wrong to that distinct person who owns the opinion. It's like some people believing that WDW is in the best shape it's ever been and Universal is nowhere close. That's their opinion, and you may see to it as being wrong but they don't and you can't change that.

Although often used interchangeably, opinions and beliefs aren't exactly the same thing. To wit:

An opinion is a personally held judgement which does not refer to an inherent truth. Rather, it's a simple statement of a personal taste representing a local, as opposed to a universal, reality.

A belief is a statement about a perceived truth that may or may not be correct. If evidence is produced that contradicts a belief, one would reconsider that belief.

 

[Beholder]

The discussions and back and forth between the pro-Avatar and anti group has led me to the opinion that TDO had better tread carefully with this "plan". Wether or not Avatar/Pandora fits, the execution had better be staggering. I sincerely hope Disney takes into account the possible ramifications shoe horning this element into a park that has clearly defined thematic elements. Living, extinct, and mythological animals have always been part of the "vision" and scope of AK. If this turns out to be some cheap money grab or a half thought out competition for HP, it'll be a disaster. AK is my favorite park in terms of theme (except Dino-Rama) and would hate to see anything ruin that.

And I agree that mythological animals trump anything created with the Hollywood branding. Trolls, giants, naga's, and of course dragons, transcend anything on the silver screen. Myths are universal and have a timelessness that can't be matched. I love Jaws, alien movies, and King Kong, but within the confines of AK, creatures based on human cultural evolution, fears, and the unknown are the best choice. And that is my opinion.

 

[Beholder]

If they insist on putting a Hollywood property in AK, let's trade Avatar for King Kong. That makes a lot more sense and the whole "lost world dinosaur thing" will compliment the park.

 

[djlaosc]

I would totally believe it tirian. I've seen it. I've seen friends reduce the amount of trips they take or stop going all together, not necessarily because they want to but because at a certain point, they are just outpriced. If foreign guests start experiencing that too (am guessing Disney starts removing some of those discounts to foreigners, you just know it is a matter of time), they will be in trouble from an attendance standpoint. No attendance growth is a problem.

As a "foreign guest", my family has gone every 3 or so years, for between 2 or 3 weeks. However, there will still be many foreign guests going every year.

Three things that will affect foreigners will be the recession/unemployment, flight cost and the end of free dining!

This year, compared to last year, flights from the UK seem to have gone from between $600 (£400) and $750 (£500) up to $900 (£600)+. That $900/£600 seems to be made up of $300 (£200) for the cost of the flight, and $600 (£400) in tax and other supplements/charges - it is ridiculous - flights would be affordable if they weren't taxed so much! And I can only imagine that they will go up even further next year (I'm pretty sure that I've seen people on other forums being charged between $1350 (£900) and $1500 (£1000) for flights this year.

The end of free dining will also be a major problem - you already get less food this year compared to last year (last year was the only time we have had the dining plan (QSDP), and the UK got 2 snacks, compared to the rest of the world, this year, we are down to 1), with the rising costs elsewhere, if/when people start to have to pay for food as well, it will affect how affordable a Florida holiday is - people will have to go for less time, go less often, or go back to staying off site - we've always stayed on-site at WDW, but when free dining goes, it'll be interesting to see what we do, after all, there's a new value/moderate opening at Universal, so a split stay could become a possiblity (on a two week holiday, you could stay onsite at WDW for a week, move to a Universal Deluxe for a night (2 days FotLP), and then move to Cabana Bay for the rest of the week (SeaWorld, shopping, etc.), especially if Universal continue to build, and WDW don't!