AVATAR land coming to Disney's Animal Kingdom

[bubbles1812]

So what's your take then on the fanbase and it's impact on decisions and/or future plans? Or do you think we are just being spied on...

Well, I don't know if we are being watched or not but hey Disney, if you are listening....

NFE is fine but I know you can do better. For your next big project, be it Avatar or something else, pull the stick out of your butts and start being willing to spend money on your projects. You are never going to be able to compete with Potter and "swat it" as people use that term if you keep cutting budgets to such a minimum that your Imagineers can't do the things that would bring the crowds in. We can tell when you do something on the cheap. Be revolutionary and push the boundaries of technology and creativity again. Do everything to the quality we know you can actually make it to be.

Sincerely,
A person who loves Disney World but thinks and has seen it's problems getting worse and a lot of stagnation and fear (seriously, take a risk once in a while...Universal did) on the part of management.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

But it was begging to be merchandised. Things existed in canon that didn't yet exist in the real world. Universal was able to look to the source material and mine it for everything they created merchandise-wise. JKR/WB made them do it right and it's paying off in spades for all 3 parties.

The only thing they are missing is Fire Whiskey.

But it takes creativity to come up with Butter Beer. Vision, driven by an understanding of one's audience, which is driven by a certain childish delight in one's own product.

What happens at Disney is that an MBA suit is put in charge of a merchandising subdivision. A new one every 6-24 months too. Who understands how to cut costs a further 15%, which he dutifully sets about to do and succeeds in. It looks mighty good on his cv too. Then the next one moves in and sets about to streamline the process even further. One would end up with generic 'made in China' crap that nobody wants.

But the true vision, the ability - and even the incentive! - to see the bigger picture is absent. When merchandise does make a killing, such as that recent hit 'carbon freeze yourself like Han Solo' - it is an outside vendor. An outsider, who somehow out-creatives Disney and out-understands the Disney audience. Disney itself came up with Star Wars vinylmation puppets.

 

[WDW1974]

Are you back on the pixie dust

Nah. I go to my weekly meetings and check in with my sponsor (although I did slip and burn $35 at my local WDW outlet store over the weekend).

I just feel something else is blowing around these parts. Something that says 'Talk Up Avatar, now' ... amongst other things.

But sometimes things just don't add up ... you think you're holding gold and it isn't, just some worthless mineral.

 

[WDW1974]

Twas a great thread sir. Many good points were made.

Thanks, kindly.

I sorta think of it as the thread that killed that site sadly (not my doing!) ... and caused the Big Man to lose all his credibility (again, his own words, not anything I said or did).

But it sure was interesting ...

 

[Patricia Melton]

But it takes creativity to come up with Butter Beer. Vision, driven by an understanding of one's audience, which is driven by a certain childish delight in one's own product.

But the true vision, the ability - and even the incentive! - to see the bigger picture is absent. When merchandise does make a killing, such as that recent hit 'carbon freeze yourself like Han Solo' - it is an outside vendor. An outsider, who somehow out-creatives Disney and out-understands the Disney audience. Disney itself came up with Star Wars vinylmation puppets.

You know what I have noticed?

It's the lawyers who foul things up. Entertainment lawyers got in the way of a lot of companies doing digital content for many, many years. What happened? Napster and other file sharers emerged to give people what they wanted. Then there had to be a big fight to shut the copyright infringers down, and only in the last two years or so did the entertainment world start to actually offer the digital content people wanted in a legal way that made profit for the companies owning the rights. All of this could have happened back in 2001 if the entertainment lawyers hadn't fought it.

I don't like to invoke the "What would Walt have done?" stuff but I do think Walt Disney would have been an entertainment lawyer's nightmare. He would have driven the MBAs crazy too. They would have spent all day telling him what he couldn't do and he would have spent the last ten minutes of the day firing each one of them. I don't think he would have tolerated the "We can't do that" spirit that seems to permeate the lawyer and MBA offices at Disney (and many, many other companies).

I can't speak for other businesses, but I am a small independent aquaculturist. I am willing to try all sorts of things if I think they will improve my business. I am the President and CEO and the Board of Directors and I answer to no one so I can roll the dice when I want. When I'm successful, i think I achieve things that big companies can't because I am willing to take bigger risks. When I fail I come precariously close to wiping myself out, but that's just part of my personality. I never bet more than I am willing to lose on any venture and I've had a very nice career that I am proud of.

Having shareholders means having the lawyers and the MBAs who are there to mitigate risks to the shareholders. Unfortunately, that is the downside of being a publicly traded company who has to constantly answer to Wall Street. And all of those Wall Street analysts demand report after report where Disney is cutting back this or that by 15%. People want to keep seeing that such and such has been reduced, because then they can say that profits have increased by such and such amount. I just don't know how Disney can ever get away from this cycle unless it would go to being a private company somehow...and that is not going to happen.

If you have ever owned your own business after having worked in a publicly traded company, you know how much better it is to have nothing at all to do with a place that answers to shareholders. I consider myself so lucky that I never have to be a part of that corporate culture.

I could tell you horror stories from my daughter who lives in New York and works for a publicly traded company. The things that each division is forced to do just to make the goals that the Wall Street types set is ridiculous.

 

[Taylor]

Nah. I go to my weekly meetings and check in with my sponsor (although I did slip and burn $35 at my local WDW outlet store over the weekend).

I just feel something else is blowing around these parts. Something that says 'Talk Up Avatar, now' ... amongst other things.

But sometimes things just don't add up ... you think you're holding gold and it isn't, just some worthless mineral.

So you think there is a secret Internet ad campaign from Disney for avatar?

 

[Patricia Melton]

Thanks, kindly.

I sorta think of it as the thread that killed that site sadly (not my doing!) ... and caused the Big Man to lose all his credibility (again, his own words, not anything I said or did).

But it sure was interesting ...

Can you fill us newbies in on what this is about?

We'd appreciate a Cliff's Notes recap of what went on and what site got sadly killed. Who was the Big Man?

 

[WDW1974]

So what's your take then on the fanbase and it's impact on decisions and/or future plans? Or do you think we are just being spied on...

My take is what I have said before repeatedly: WDW's fanbase in the social media/networking/Disney Lifestyler era is absolutely a key factor in WDW's parks getting treated like the red-headed stepchildren.

Fans don't help here (like they do in Anaheim or Tokyo), they help encourage the Walmarting of the product (see the thread on the twinkling lights in the Hub and read the Mouseplanet columnist's great essay on why what has happened is wrong on multiple levels). I mean, you will get folks who see nothing fundamentally wrong with the BAH at the Studios. On every basic design level ... and just creating a sense of time and place, it is wrong. But some peeps (many like it, like they did the wand over SSE).

The fanbase doesn't know what it wants or why, but is more than willing to accept almost anything Disney gives them. Storybook Circus? I mean, REALLY?!?! Hell, even Kevin Yee was gushing over it today.

Do you think what WDW is currently doing should equate to giant cross the board price increases in 2013 for admission media, food and beverage and hotel stays? ... OK. this is where the Evil, Vile Disney Bashing, Lives on Fanboi Tearing Spirit drops a HUGE nugget of news into a different topic at 2 a.m. and we wait and see if anyone reads it, gets it and responds. ... Because right now, TDO is looking into increases of between 15-35% on ALL of the ABOVE come next year on top of all the recent increases (and more food increases coming soon). They believe Fantasyland is such a great addition and will be a Cars or Potter-like draw that they are in the planning stages of HUGE price increases (I won't point out that in two years my WDW Charter AP has gone up by almost 25%, although I do plan on demanding a $65 refund since my email quoted one price and they charged me the new one, of course, even after I purchased thru that link).

So, what was the question? Getting tired. I ate and drank a lot today (including these kewl blue drinks that had both rum and vodka in them ... juices too!) and am having trouble keeping up ...maybe it's middle age, although I;m too young for that!

 

[HenryMystic]

You know what I have noticed?

It's the lawyers who foul things up.

No, lawyers fix and/or prevent foul ups. Safety and intellectual property are serious business. One day, you'll need a lawyer. Everyone does eventually. Price of living in an advanced society.

 

[menamechris]

Having shareholders means having the lawyers and the MBAs who are there to mitigate risks to the shareholders. Unfortunately, that is the downside of being a publicly traded company who has to constantly answer to Wall Street. And all of those Wall Street analysts demand report after report where Disney is cutting back this or that by 15%. People want to keep seeing that such and such has been reduced, because then they can say that profits have increased by such and such amount. I just don't know how Disney can ever get away from this cycle unless it would go to being a private company somehow...and that is not going to happen.

They could start by firing Imagineering. Or at least reorganizing it. Budget cuts seem to be especially necessary with Disney, because it costs significantly more through their own corporate system. So with Imagineering we seem to get half of what any other company could have done it for - for the same price.

 

[Patricia Melton]

So you think there is a secret Internet ad campaign from Disney for avatar?

I don't think Disney hires anyone to do Internet stuff for them.

It would be a waste of money for them to do guerrilla marketing and clandestine blogging. They just don't need to do it.

They have their official Disney blogs.

I think they more or less control what's said on most Disney fan sites with carrots and sticks: as in, if they like a site they invite the web masters for freebies in the parks...and if a site does not toe the line or is too critical of Disney then no more perks go to those people.

I bet they have a Social Media department with interns who monitor the main Disney fan sites and maybe do a weekly report on trends. My daughter did an internship in college a few years back where she had to follow several brands for this marketing company and she would type up a brief each day on what was being said about the brands. I think one was some kind of clothing company and she'd check to see if people were saying bad things about the products. This was a few years before Twitter and Facebook and things so I don't know what people do now.

I do know that Disney monitors Twitter like other big companies do. There's something that Twitter can provide companies for a fee I think that analyzes what is said about them. Delta uses this and if you have a bad flight and complain about it on Twitter with your flight number someone from Delta will contact you about it and apologize. It is just about the only way to get Delta to contact you. They want that bad stuff off Twitter and don't want complaints to get out.

I can't imagine Disney would not respond the same way if someone took to Twitter to complain about something in the parks.

 

[HenryMystic]

Do you think what WDW is currently doing should equate to giant cross the board price increases in 2013 for admission media, food and beverage and hotel stays? ... OK. this is where the Evil, Vile Disney Bashing, Lives on Fanboi Tearing Spirit drops a HUGE nugget of news into a different topic at 2 a.m. and we wait and see if anyone reads it, gets it and responds. ... Because right now, TDO is looking into increases of between 15-35% on ALL of the ABOVE come next year on top of all the recent increases (and more food increases coming soon). They believe Fantasyland is such a great addition and will be a Cars or Potter-like draw that they are in the planning stages of HUGE price increases (I won't point out that in two years my WDW Charter AP has gone up by almost 25%, although I do plan on demanding a $65 refund since my email quoted one price and they charged me the new one, of course, even after I purchased thru that link).

Oh my! So WDW may be the first to cross the magical $100 per day number? (or am I doing my math wrong?)

 

[Patricia Melton]

No, lawyers fix and/or prevent foul ups. Safety and intellectual property are serious business. One day, you'll need a lawyer. Everyone does eventually. Price of living in an advanced society.

I have a lawyer and I've used him a lot through the years in my business.

What I don't have is a team of lawyers on retainer who advise me on how to run my business or who tell me "You Can't Do That". Lawyers will always say that something shouldn't be done. Lawyers are not people you go to when you want to do something creative. They will tell you not to do it because that is the safest course of action, to do nothing.

What a company needs to do is go to a lawyer and say, "This is what we are doing. Now you sit down and check to make sure it is compliant with every law on the books currently and that we'd be grandfathered if the law changes the day after we start building. Then prepare a strategy to smack back at anyone who would try to sue us over this thing we are doing".

So the lawyers are not stopping a project...the lawyers' skill is being used offensively to make the project happen and proactively prep to smack back at anyone who would try to grub for money by attacking the project.

Disney's lawyers don't play offense. They play defense. Defense, as sports fans know, does not win games or score victories. Defense just keeps a loss from being a bigger loss and in the best possible scenario defense is responsible for ending a game in a tie, but never a win because defense does not score any goals.

Trust me on this. I'm a former hockey and lacrosse mom!

 

[bubbles1812]

I just don't know how Disney can ever get away from this cycle unless it would go to being a private company somehow...and that is not going to happen.

Get a charismatic leader who is not afraid of taking *some* risks who can communicate with shareholders well about how those risks will pay out in the end and why they are justifiable now. A person/persons who is not afraid to push through projects on the large scale. I think of John Lasseter and Carsland with this. At least he had vision though I'm not even saying Lasseter is the answer. But it's obvious Disney needs new leadership at almost all levels. Eventually Disney has to look at long term vs focus on those short term quarterly profits. No one can focus just on the individual quarter without thinking about the big picture. That's how companies fail. Every king eventually falls and Disney has worn the crown a long time. But there isn't a guarantee the keep it if they don't take some risks and push through some big projects. Look how well its worked for Universal. Disney can get away from the cycle if they choose to, even while being a public company.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

You know what I have noticed?

lawyers [...] shareholders [...] MBAs who are there to mitigate risks

I could tell you horror stories from my daughter who lives in New York and works for a publicly traded company. The things that each division is forced to do just to make the goals that the Wall Street types set is ridiculous.

I think there is a reason why innovation in American industry is nowadays driven by small start-ups. It's them who develop the new products, then get snatched up by the big boys. Somehow, this has come to be the economic model. The big companies, for a number of reasons, lack the culture to be truly innovative. Even 'new' companies like Facebook shell out a billion dollars for Instagram.
I think a good deal of Apple's cultstatus is based on it being the most notable exception to the rule, the behemoth that itself drives innovation.

 

[WDW1974]

So you think there is a secret Internet ad campaign from Disney for avatar?

Let's just say there are other Spirits at play and if you look around and think about things that seem odd, well, you may just find yourself at a conclusion that makes sense. ... Or you'll be lost somewhere like Ohio!

 

[Patricia Melton]

Let's just say there are other Spirits at play and if you look around and think about things that seem odd, well, you may just find yourself at a conclusion that makes sense. ... Or you'll be lost somewhere like Ohio!

What are the "Spirits" you are talking about?

And I live here in Ohio so I can never get lost. Lived here my whole life!

 

[menamechris]

The fanbase doesn't know what it wants or why, but is more than willing to accept almost anything Disney gives them. Storybook Circus? I mean, REALLY?!?! Hell, even Kevin Yee was gushing over it today.

Yeah, I was personally a little surprised by that too. I find it more charming than Toontown, personally, but I don't understand the enormous amount of praise it is getting from some people....

Do you think what WDW is currently doing should equate to giant cross the board price increases in 2013 for admission media, food and beverage and hotel stays? ... OK. this is where the Evil, Vile Disney Bashing, Lives on Fanboi Tearing Spirit drops a HUGE nugget of news into a different topic at 2 a.m. and we wait and see if anyone reads it, gets it and responds. ... Because right now, TDO is looking into increases of between 15-35% on ALL of the ABOVE come next year on top of all the recent increases (and more food increases coming soon). They believe Fantasyland is such a great addition and will be a Cars or Potter-like draw that they are in the planning stages of HUGE price increases (I won't point out that in two years my WDW Charter AP has gone up by almost 25%, although I do plan on demanding a $65 refund since my email quoted one price and they charged me the new one, of course, even after I purchased thru that link)

I am personally not surprised by this. They are anxious to reach their breaking point with consumers. Will be interesting to see how they handle it when attendance drops. They will eventually go to far at this rate...

 

[WDW1974]

Can you fill us newbies in on what this is about?

We'd appreciate a Cliff's Notes recap of what went on and what site got sadly killed. Who was the Big Man?

Sorry, Patricia. I'd love to, but it's sorta like leaving an old lover under less than happy circumstances. Best to not tell tales ... besides, when you do, you sometimes wind up forgetting what tale you told to what audience. And I always believe truth is best ... so, nope, not gonna rehash history.

 

[bubbles1812]

Do you think what WDW is currently doing should equate to giant cross the board price increases in 2013 for admission media, food and beverage and hotel stays? ... OK. this is where the Evil, Vile Disney Bashing, Lives on Fanboi Tearing Spirit drops a HUGE nugget of news into a different topic at 2 a.m. and we wait and see if anyone reads it, gets it and responds. ... Because right now, TDO is looking into increases of between 15-35% on ALL of the ABOVE come next year on top of all the recent increases (and more food increases coming soon). They believe Fantasyland is such a great addition and will be a Cars or Potter-like draw that they are in the planning stages of HUGE price increases (I won't point out that in two years my WDW Charter AP has gone up by almost 25%, although I do plan on demanding a $65 refund since my email quoted one price and they charged me the new one, of course, even after I purchased thru that link).

That....sucks. I don't think even the most strident "Disney can do no wrong" posters on this board have said that the NFE expansion is the equivalent of Carsland or Potter. Those were actually new lands, full new lands. NFE is just an expansion. And certainly nothing that justifies those type of price increases across the board. I think they are going to be surprised at the draw (or lack thereof) that it will bring. If they are expecting a 30% attendance hike, I think that shows extreme naitivity and is almost laughable. Potter was/is huge. It's a huge series. Cars is maybe not a big a series from a global all age group perspective but it certainly is a huge money maker. NFE is...not those. I think if they go through with this type of price hike, it will come back to bite them in the butt big time. And @Chris...Disney is definitely going to be first across the $100/day barrier. No doubt in my mind.