I don't think a lot of people walked away because they couldn't afford as much as they wouldn't afford it. It seems pretty reasonable to me that someone would say "If we're spending that much for Disney we might as well go to Ireland."
Speaking for myself, there is an increasing amount of local competition to keep me closer to home and save thousands vs. a trip to WDW.
Within a 3.5 hour drive I can visit Dollywood, Biltmore, King's Island, Holiday World, several great cities, a few national and state parks, etc. None of these places have the nostalgic draw of WDW for me, but I can no longer ignore the tremendous savings of those locations for my family.
If one doesn't have that nostalgic draw to WDW, those other locations become all the more appealing. This would probably be a factor when combined with WDW's price increases and cash grabs.
I know where your coming from, we are in Indiana, so Kings Island and Holiday World has been our yearly go to since DD8 has gotten out of the baby stage. Now with Kentucky Kingdom open and geared towards her age it's a couple visits each summer since only 50 miles from us. Even if I added the cost of them all together it doesn't come close to a Disney vacation. And less stressful not having to plan so much.
I don't think a lot of people walked away because they couldn't afford as much as they wouldn't afford it. It seems pretty reasonable to me that someone would say "If we're spending that much for Disney we might as well go to Ireland."
I know where your coming from, we are in Indiana, so Kings Island and Holiday World has been our yearly go to since DD8 has gotten out of the baby stage. Now with Kentucky Kingdom open and geared towards her age it's a couple visits each summer since only 50 miles from us. Even if I added the cost of them all together it doesn't come close to a Disney vacation. And less stressful not having to plan so much.
That's where I think Disney has lost a lot of their return customers. Sure WDW is one of a kind, but it it worth all of those vacation dollars? A lot of returning guests have concluded "no" or have scaled back on the frequency of their trips.
We were annual visitors, but the nostalgia factor wears thin after a while. So we haven't been back for 3 years and we have no plans to return. Planning a trip used to be a lot of fun, now it's a hassle. On our last trip I made ADR's at 120 days out, but that was the first disappointment. I couldn't get the times or sometimes the days we wanted. Then at 60 days I made FP+ reservations, but in some cases the available times were smack dab in the middle of an ADR time.
So by the time we arrived, I was already disappointed with some aspects of the trip. Don't get me wrong, we had a great time, but the fun and anticipation of planning the trip has diminished. I don't like being disappointed in what we can't do 6 months before we arrive.
I think travel, especially international travel is up tremendously for sure. In the comment above I mentioned a shift that's been happening for awhile now.. people want to do "more" and they want their children to experience more than previous generations generally have.
Combine all of that with relatively inexpensive airfare (in certain cities)=wonderful results.
I just can't get on the same page of 'people who left Disney bc of price are now all of the sudden decided to go overseas on luxury vacations.' Like I said, I think Atlantis has made a Huge splash in recent years on the family stage. So that 'argument' I could understand. When I first started going there you didn't see many kids, sure some, but not the majority. Now it's almost impossible to walk 10 feet without seeing a child. When they opened their "value" accomadations it attracted even more.
I think this had to cut into the WDW market. I don't have anyway to prove that, and I haven't searched, but it seems like it would. Did you come across anything like that?
I'm more familiar with WDW and EU travel at present, but that could be an interesting case because 1. travel to the Caribbean is relatively inelastic (like WDW, they can raise prices and guests will keep coming) and 2. Atlantis would also draw most of its travelers from the US, UK, Canada, etc. What time frame are you referring to?
Anecdotally, a family member used to alternate between a WDW vacation and a Caribbean vacation (they have a timeshare there), but is annoyed by the price increases and planning aspects at WDW (it's become harder with the kids now in school).
The other problem with WDW remaining the 'standard vacation' is the lack of vacation time (or millennial attitudes about using it)...and people using their vacation time for other reasons (like appointments and sleep).
I don't think a lot of people walked away because they couldn't afford as much as they wouldn't afford it. It seems pretty reasonable to me that someone would say "If we're spending that much for Disney we might as well go to Ireland."
Yes, because all of those "a lot of people " are now suddenly saying -
"$3500-$5000 is not a good value for Disney. Let's go spend $15,000-$20000 on a guided Europe tour!"
If you are a golfer and I could actually see Saratoga being a good place to stay and play a few rounds of golf in the daytime and visit a few bars at night. I know it was always the least desirable of the DVC but I'm curious if that has changed at all.
I'm most definitely not a golfer, but it'd be a good place for golfers to stay. Its big problems are its sheer size -- 5 bus stops adds 10-15 minutes to resort travel time, easily -- lack of much atmosphere, and crummy food options. Plus it's not really near any of the resorts. But it's a quick walk or boat ride to Disney Springs, which now that construction walls are coming down, is a great perk. Especially as DS is a handy hub from pretty much anywhere, so transportation to Saratoga is a breeze. And those Treehouses are honestly some of my favorite places on property.
Yes, because all of those "a lot of people " are now suddenly saying -
"$3500-$5000 is not a good value for Disney. Let's go spend $15,000-$20000 on a guided Europe tour!"
Wow, talk about a gross exaggeration!
My friends are spending $1000 more on a 2 week trip to Ireland and England than they would've spent on a trip to WDW.
Yes, this has been my entire issue with WDW since the switch from ticketed FP to FP+. Now you have to plan your dining around FPs and FPs around dining. It becomes a job just to go on vacation then it is a job on vacation just to be able to do the things you want. Vacation should be a stress free time. Not at Disney with the Commando structure of the trip.
I am truly sorry the uneducated did not learn how to use the FP system. Many first-timers see everything that is required and just say "forget it!!! I'll go else where." My neighbor says it all the time. The kids are dying to go, see us go often, but when he sees everything they have to do, it is done. They also have the idea that everything can be done in 4 days. When I told him he will walk about 10+ miles a day, he insisted its not true. Then when he researched it, he said it wasn't for him.
That's where I would like to see stats. I think, don't have anything more than anecdotal proof though, that the people who are traveling internationally were doing so before Disney raised their prices. Not as a result. Especially not when you look at the price difference of something like a Tauck or ABD tour/river cruise combo. I've gotten a few quotes from Tauck before, bc I didn't want to travel to Europe alone with my kid before age 8. They make Disney prices look like a bargain.lol.
ETA- I want to specify WDW, again. To me the people who would leave Disney for the examples you are giving are more likely the DCL travelers. There comes a point when you can't justify a similar experience for such a higher price point. This is how I feel about certain DCL itineraries. If you are on a port intensive cruise, is an extra $6k worth DCL? IMO - No. So I'd choose another line. (I just recently typed exactly this on another thread lol)
But there's nothing to accurately compare to WDW. So you aren't faced with the same decision making process.
If people were saying WDW was losing travelers to Altlantis then I could see that. To me that is a much closer comparison, price wise and experience wise.
As a single traveler, I have a hard time attempting to compare costs. When I traveled with a family the prices were a lot lower overall, but, still a challenge to the budget and required a thought out decision before spending that much on anything. Back in 2008, I took a one week Disney trip and paid for my entire extended family. I paid the airfare, housing and tickets for (at the time) my two daughters, two Son's in law, and three grandchildren (over 6 years old), and my at the time lady friend.** We each basically paid around the same amounts for food. We didn't stay on site, I had rented an incredible 5 bedroom villa just about a mile off Disney property. Had two rental cars, besides my own (I drove down from Vermont). BTW, those were 7 day, park hopper, non-expiring tickets for all. The total cost to me was $7800.00. That was for just 7 days.
October (2015), my sister and I went to Europe. She flew into Paris via Vermont/Iceland and I via North Carolina/Iceland, rented an apartment for 4 days in Central Paris, went to Disneyland Paris for a day, explored museums and tourist spots around Paris before flying to Venice. Three days there and hoped a train for Rome. Again rented an apartment near the train station for 5 days. We went all over Rome via subway, did a paid tour of the Roman Forum and Coliseum, St. Peters, Sistine Chapel, Audience with the Pope, Trevi Fountain took a train and toured the ruins of Pompei. We then caught another train to the port of Rome and boarded a transatlantic cruise for a two week cruise that included stops in places like Barcelona, Palma de Mallorca, Tenerife and other ports of call. A solid week of sailing the Atlantic with entertainment and activities and enough food to be almost obscene (well, not really almost, it was obscene). The Cruise brought us back to Fort Lauderdale. I flew back to North Caroline and she flew back to Vermont. We shared expenses except individual purchases for souvenirs, gambling, etc. was $9100.00 *** Factor in that there was just two of us and not nine people which would obviously been a lot more expensive, but as a personal expense for me, out of my money, it was $4550.00 approximately. Thirty days, thousands of miles traveled, three meals a day, touring, local transportation.
I have read on other threads where a family of four staying onsite could easily pay $7000.00+ for one week at Disney. Multiply that by four weeks and you have $28000.00. A family of four on the exact trip to Europe I was on would have been $18200.00. Of course, I didn't get to go on any dark rides although a few of the subway rides during rush hour were quite intimate.
My sister and my nephew were also on the trip with us, but, paid their own way.
That number also included all our expenses, personal or shared.
If my 70+ year old non-tech-savvy parents can click a few buttons on their iPad to choose what rides they want to go on, I think folks who use their smartphones all day long aren't exactly struggling with FP+.
The bigger problem, quite honestly, is how difficult it can be to get dining reservations during peak times, and that's just a popularity issue, not a FastPass one. Trying to plan your dining three months ahead of time is tough.
No kidding. I just priced a trip to London & Paris for two people from 2/19/17 thru 2/27/17 on Costco Travel (which was the first link that came up after a search for "europe vacation packages).
Airfare, hotel, and some other incidentals comes to a whopping $3297.98. Total.
Knowing how much the premium resorts cost, it blows my mind when I think about it; I see families of four or five at the Contemporary or Polynesian, and think "this vacation is probably costing them around ten-freakin-thousand dollars." Easily. It's no wonder people get upset and disgruntled easily -- when you're investing that much in a trip, expectations run extremely high.
When I was a kid, my family of four went to WDW several times, and we'd drive down (from Ohio), stay in cheap motels off-site, go to the park early in the morning, leave at noon to eat a late lunch/dinner at the motel, and go back to the park later in the afternoon when it'd cooled off a bit. Any way to save money.
The other problem with WDW remaining the 'standard vacation' is the lack of vacation time (or millennial attitudes about using it)...and people using their vacation time for other reasons (like appointments and sleep).
This is a big one right here. DH has 8 years at a company and just this year got 10 vacation days. Of course we also have to figure in using a day here of there for the dredded school snow days, sick, or something that happen last year: factory shutdown days with NO PAY.
If my 70+ year old non-tech-savvy parents can click a few buttons on their iPad to choose what rides they want to go on, I think folks who use their smartphones all day long aren't exactly struggling with FP+.
The bigger problem, quite honestly, is how difficult it can be to get dining reservations during peak times, and that's just a popularity issue, not a FastPass one. Trying to plan your dining three months ahead of time is tough.
It has nothing to do with how savvy anyone is with technology. I am extremely savvy. What I hate doing is scheduling everything I have to do on vacation to the very minute...including bowel movements. It is ridiculous at what is required. You have to plan dining 180 days out, then you have to schedule FPs. Then the FP times make you go revisit dining reservation times, then back to FPs, then the FP times are gone. Then, you go on The People Mover with 90 minutes to spare before ADRs at Ohana's. PM breaks down, you are stuck for 45 minutes, then it starts back up and stops again. You are calling on your phone to Ohana to tell them you are stuck on a ride. You miss your FP for 7DMT because you have to run to Ohana. You have to decide to take the monorail or boat. You go monorail, monorail stops for 15 minutes. You run like chickens with your head cut off to Ohana 15 minutes late and now have to wait for an available table. Now you are waiting with everyone that had reservations at 6PM - 6:30PM while yours was at 5:45PM. Tables are limited because they have already been seating. As you wait, more people come in at their ADR time. You finally get seated at 6:30PM. Drinks and apps come out slower because it is now packed. You are looking at your time because Wishes is at 8PM. It is pushing 7:45PM at dinner. You have to decide whether to watch it. Now you are rushing to get the bill. Everyone else is too. It takes 10 minutes to get it back. Now you are trying to run out to the Poly beach and it is about half over now. Your FP for Space Mountain was scheduled for 7:45-8:45PM. Now wishes is over and it is about 8:30 trying to get to the monorail. You are now late and miss out on those FPs as well.
Knowing how much the premium resorts cost, it blows my mind when I think about it; I see families of four or five at the Contemporary or Polynesian, and think "this vacation is probably costing them around ten-freakin-thousand dollars." Easily. It's no wonder people get upset and disgruntled easily -- when you're investing that much in a trip, expectations run extremely high.
When I was a kid, my family of four went to WDW several times, and we'd drive down (from Ohio), stay in cheap motels off-site, go to the park early in the morning, leave at noon to eat a late lunch/dinner at the motel, and go back to the park later in the afternoon when it'd cooled off a bit. Any way to save money.
Agree, over the years when traveling with a family of four from Vermont to WDW, one week including my penchant for exploring other parts of Florida and other attractions in the state, I never spent over $2000.00 for the entire trip, all expenses. As a footnote, we all had a great time, didn't go hungry, or come home with bugs from the hotels. I'm heading out to Florida for 6 days (travel time included) in February. I don't expect to spend much over $800.00 for tickets, meals, lodging and transportation. I'm focusing on Uni this trip, but still only two days there, one day at Disney (left over park hopper), World Golf hall of Fame and whatever, in the words of the Dreamfinder, flights of fancy I might indulge in.
It has nothing to do with how savvy anyone is with technology. I am extremely savvy. What I hate doing is scheduling everything I have to do on vacation to the very minute...including bowel movements. It is ridiculous at what is required.
What a bizarre sequence of events you're describing. But 90% of everything you're talking about are service or maintenance issues, and have nothing at all to do with FP+. You'd still be dealing with trying to make your FastPass if your food was late under the old system. FP+ has nothing to do with rides breaking down or the monorail having issues. I've used FP+ with a group of 13 people on two week-long trips and have never had a single issue with it at any point; I'm sorry if you have. I would add that with FP+, it's extremely easy to change your FastPasses on the fly with the app if you're running late. Click, click, done. Couldn't do that with a paper FP in your hand.
If my 70+ year old non-tech-savvy parents can click a few buttons on their iPad to choose what rides they want to go on, I think folks who use their smartphones all day long aren't exactly struggling with FP+.
To me, that's not the issue. I can click a few buttons, just like most people can. But I don't want to click a few buttons when I'm on vacation. I want to see where I am, not focused on my phone and logging into the app intermittently; it's too much like work.
