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Attendance drop in the parks... I wonder why
- Thread starter THEMEPARKPIONEER
- Start date
21stamps
Well-Known Member
I am not disagreeing with this at all. I think people missed the word 'guided'. The last several pages have been people trying to claim, and prove, that companies such as ABD and Tauck are marketing to the same target audience as WDW. And that "a lot of people" are now choosing these companies instead. I don't see them sharing the same core market.
People can cross over of course, but I don't think the average traveler is comparing the 2. I don't know too much about ABD, I asked my TA about a China tour with them, she recommended that I wait until kiddo was a little older. I have looked extensively in to Tauck tour options
I know how to do Europe for the same or a little less than (our trips to) WDW. But, I don't want to do it alone with my child right now- so I looked at cruise options (11 night) and Tauck tours. I think my cost for our recent WDW trip was somewhere around 8k. I can not do a Tauck tour or 11 night cruise/land combo for that. Something like that would run $15-$20k, maybe a few dollars less or more depending on party size and itinerary.
I could do my own tour for $8k without the cruise, but that's not what was being discussed.
This topic is interesting and @Andrew C brought up something that I didn't know existed, so that learning moment was a win.
Let's look at the entire vacation market-
What percentage is doing these Tauck and ABD tours? They sell out, but how large of a segment is that really? Are these the same people that were loyal WDW exclusive travelers? Or are they people who love international travel, but want to be in a group with children.. or maybe doing a bucket list trip? Would the people who left Disney World for these companies really be more than a very minuscule blip in attendance?
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You are the only person who mentioned Tauck. Tauck, ABD, and Viking are all high end tours where people stay in high end accommodations and high end access on their excursions. But there are many tour agencies that offer tours that are a lot less expensive.
21stamps
Well-Known Member
You may want to go back a few pages. The discussion started bc someone said ABD river cruise itineraries are competing with WDW (I don't want to get back on the river cruise subject), and WDW is losing business as a result.
I brought up Tauck because that company and ABD are in direct competition with each other. That's a much more accurate comparison in cross shopping than with a Disney World vacay.
Then people proceeded to post articles about Tauck and ABD to prove that they're marketing to families. They are marketing to a certain group of families, not your avg WDW exclusive, or even average family, vacationer.
There's no way that Disney World is losing a noticeable difference in attendance to either one.
Grimley1968
Well-Known Member
In this thread, you've asked people to show evidence of WDW and European river cruises marketing to the same markets. That was provided. Now it's your turn: can you please provide quotes for anyone who said anything remotely similar to this quote?
Wait. I'll save you the trouble and more posts, because no one did. What a ridiculous exaggeration.
You keep asking for others to provide proof of their statements and they have. So, where's your proof?
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
With the Pound and Euro being what they are, now is actually a good time for North Americans to visit Europe.
21stamps
Well-Known Member
I'd need to page @SorcererMC for that. She's good at finding stats. I don't know what the average income is for WDW vacationers, vs the Tauck/ABD average profile. I also don't know the percentage of luxury tour families, or $15k+ vacations, when looking at an overall travel market of Americans.
I think I read an article in Forbes once that said the avg American spends between $1500-$5k for an annual vacation. I could be a little off on the numbers, and of course that's an average, but I don't think $10k-$15k+ vacations have ever been or ever will be a large segment.
ETA, Again, if someone claimed Atlantis has had a bit of an impact..or targeting the same audience..I would probably be more inclined to agree, bc the cost is still in the realm of comparable, and feasible for "average" Disney World travelers. (I think, I don't have statistics on avg WDW travelers lol). But Atlantis is about a 5k trip. Although you could do it for a little less or a lot more. Most importantly- no minimum age requirement. Plenty to do for young children.
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A few points, for what they're worth:
1. Find someone in your family who loves tech to do the ADRs and FPs. Like most tech, once you use it once, it becomes easy.
2. Most ADRs are not set in stone. We've been late and early and had no problem getting in.
3. Even some FPs have some flexibility. On New Year's Eve, the busiest night of the year, we were 4 hours late for our Test Track FP, and still got on once the CM heard our hotel and cruise line sob story.
4. Europe gets expensive for families if you want non stop flights, hotel rooms with AC, something for the kids to do like swimming, and other incidentals. Our larger "American Style" hotel rooms generally exceeded $400 per night, and sometimes much higher for our family of 4 in Europe.
5. Europe can be done very cheaply if you stay in lesser hotels, walk everywhere, use railpasses, and/or find cheap flights (like I did as a college student). My wife and I would be fine with that, but do you want to do that with kids in tow?
6. River cruises are evolving, just like ocean cruises did a couple decades ago. Going on a Caribbean family cruise, especially with littler kids, was basically unheard of until Disney came along. River cruises will very likely make a similar metamorphosis soon, but I don't think stalwarts like Viking will be changing their demographic, just like Holland America, Princess and Cunard still shun kids. Plus, river boats, because of their smaller size, probably have to specially built for family vacationers. You can't retrofit a Viking river boat to install a splash zone.
7. WDW is probably trying to knock out the riff raff. Not to be snooty, but fewer and fewer people that Jeff Foxworthy talks about seem to be hitting the Disney parks. Pricing them out, apparently, is not a bad thing in the eyes of management. Perhaps the income and educational levels of Disney guests are all higher than they used to be. I don't know.
8. In the same vein, the push toward DVC guests is huge. This brings people back year after year, and also again ups the likely income and educational levels of the overall guest demographic. I could sell my Boardwalk points right now for a very strong 25% profit even though I only bought there about 3 years ago. That demand has gone up dramatically, and I have no idea why. It may have to do with the fact that Boardwalk is exceptionally convenient for people who like World Showcase, which is definitely not the Foxworthy crowd.
Overall, WDW seems to be heading toward premium vacationers. Back when the value resorts came along, Disney truly tried to make a WDW vacation affordable for everyone. Now, they seem to be catering more toward the well-heeled. I do not believe the current ad campaign even mentions price, but instead focuses on the magic, the service, and the Grand Floridian concierges with fairy wings. Where's the "Family of 4 with park hopper can stay for $1,200" ad? Face it, 6 Flags and other parks can be the more affordable alternatives to WDW, and that's where the egalitarian conscience seems to be sated. Put another way, any guilt that Disney may feel for turning away poorer guests goes away when options at non-Disney parks are considered.
As Iger essentially said, let's cut the crowds, but keep the fat wallet carriers happy. Why corral 30,000 sweaty and over-crowded guests when we can make the same money with 20,000 happier (and richer) guests? Cadillac doesn't want everyone to buy an Eldorado. They want a certain demographic to buy an Eldorado and make more money off of each of them.
1. Find someone in your family who loves tech to do the ADRs and FPs. Like most tech, once you use it once, it becomes easy.
2. Most ADRs are not set in stone. We've been late and early and had no problem getting in.
3. Even some FPs have some flexibility. On New Year's Eve, the busiest night of the year, we were 4 hours late for our Test Track FP, and still got on once the CM heard our hotel and cruise line sob story.
4. Europe gets expensive for families if you want non stop flights, hotel rooms with AC, something for the kids to do like swimming, and other incidentals. Our larger "American Style" hotel rooms generally exceeded $400 per night, and sometimes much higher for our family of 4 in Europe.
5. Europe can be done very cheaply if you stay in lesser hotels, walk everywhere, use railpasses, and/or find cheap flights (like I did as a college student). My wife and I would be fine with that, but do you want to do that with kids in tow?
6. River cruises are evolving, just like ocean cruises did a couple decades ago. Going on a Caribbean family cruise, especially with littler kids, was basically unheard of until Disney came along. River cruises will very likely make a similar metamorphosis soon, but I don't think stalwarts like Viking will be changing their demographic, just like Holland America, Princess and Cunard still shun kids. Plus, river boats, because of their smaller size, probably have to specially built for family vacationers. You can't retrofit a Viking river boat to install a splash zone.
7. WDW is probably trying to knock out the riff raff. Not to be snooty, but fewer and fewer people that Jeff Foxworthy talks about seem to be hitting the Disney parks. Pricing them out, apparently, is not a bad thing in the eyes of management. Perhaps the income and educational levels of Disney guests are all higher than they used to be. I don't know.
8. In the same vein, the push toward DVC guests is huge. This brings people back year after year, and also again ups the likely income and educational levels of the overall guest demographic. I could sell my Boardwalk points right now for a very strong 25% profit even though I only bought there about 3 years ago. That demand has gone up dramatically, and I have no idea why. It may have to do with the fact that Boardwalk is exceptionally convenient for people who like World Showcase, which is definitely not the Foxworthy crowd.
Overall, WDW seems to be heading toward premium vacationers. Back when the value resorts came along, Disney truly tried to make a WDW vacation affordable for everyone. Now, they seem to be catering more toward the well-heeled. I do not believe the current ad campaign even mentions price, but instead focuses on the magic, the service, and the Grand Floridian concierges with fairy wings. Where's the "Family of 4 with park hopper can stay for $1,200" ad? Face it, 6 Flags and other parks can be the more affordable alternatives to WDW, and that's where the egalitarian conscience seems to be sated. Put another way, any guilt that Disney may feel for turning away poorer guests goes away when options at non-Disney parks are considered.
As Iger essentially said, let's cut the crowds, but keep the fat wallet carriers happy. Why corral 30,000 sweaty and over-crowded guests when we can make the same money with 20,000 happier (and richer) guests? Cadillac doesn't want everyone to buy an Eldorado. They want a certain demographic to buy an Eldorado and make more money off of each of them.
pax_65
Well-Known Member
Talk about nostalgia... when my kids were small (back when we went to WDW at least twice a year) they had a reservations center under Spaceship Earth. We'd go there the first or second day of our vacation to make our ADRs for the rest of our vacation. Sometimes our plans would change or whatever, and we'd just WALK-IN to popular restaurants like Le Cellier. (That didn't always work, but it often did.)
Then we'd wake the kids up early and say "What park do you want to go into today?" And whatever they decided is where we went. No advanced planning. We got there when the park opened, did attractions before it got crowded and collected FPs for later. It was a very relaxing and efficient way to enjoy the park.
It's a very different experience today. You MUST plan everything well in advance or you simply cannot experience certain restaurants at all, and you cannot experience certain attractions without an incredibly-long wait.
draybook
Well-Known Member
Barbaric, I know.
Otterhead
Well-Known Member
I remember that too -- it was really fun! I loved making dining reservations by videophone.
However, by no means did they have FastPasses back then. There wasn't any planning ahead, but I remember standing in quite a few very, very long lines, because that's what you had to do.
I think FP+ is just one of those weird breaking points for some folks as the parks have gotten incrementally more popular and constantly busy. If you're willing to spend a few minutes deciding what rides you want to essentially walk onto, rather than collect paper FastPasses at the rides and return later on, then it's a breeze. If you equate any tiny amount of pre-planning with "work", well, Six Flags is an option!
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
This does seem to be the over arching theme. There are a couple obvious dangers with this line of thinking.
1. You want to charge ultra-premium prices, you better provide ultra-premium service.
2. Related to 1. If you do not provide amazing service, then your guest satisfaction numbers will drop. If that starts to happen, and you have already successfully culled the crowds, then your margin of error is razor thin. You want fewer guests, you better be damn sure to keep them happy and coming back.
I haven't read through entire thread, but is travel down to Universal and Sea World as well? Is travel down in Florida? Seems like there's a lot of discussion here about whether Disney is the cause of this; and less about whether this just correlates with a down-turn in the travel industry which is gonna happen occasionally.
I was there for the Arts Festival and I must say that I think the prices are too high for a "scoop" of food, families are now choosing what events are worth the cost...other parks in the area are giving a better deal on their "festivals" and a higher discounts for most of their products, meals and drinks...concerts are much longer which mean more "bang for your buck" ...
I asked you to furnish proof that Disney was not losing business to Tauck or ABD or any other travel option, nothing else. You stated :
You didn't answer my question. Where's your proof ? ( see bolded)
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Just priced out a five day WDW package for a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids, Pop Century standard room, 5 day park hoppers, airfare from Texas on Jetblue) and it's $3,316 before meals and anything else. That can easily get to $4K for five days at a mediocre on-site resort with two double beds. Some in Texas might compare that to the much lower cost of 5 days on the riverwalk in San Antonio with tickets to Fiesta Texas or 5 days in DFW with tickets to Six Flags and feel like it's a much better "value".............
L.C. Clench
Well-Known Member
Here is the closest you can get to "bargain Disney" offers. $1675 for 4 days and 4 nights off site at non peak times with the new 4 park ticket. I guess it's up to interpretation what this means about how their crowds are and whether their luxury push is paying off as hoped.
https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/s...ge/?CMP=EMC-WDWFY17Q2WDWFY17Q1Q2OffsiteEM0004
Otterhead
Well-Known Member
I once went to WDW with a couple from northern Ohio who complained the whole time about the lack of big rollercoasters, their annoyance at having to "sit down at a restaurant at an amusement park" and how pricey the restaurants at World Showcase were, and how "Cedar Point is way more fun than this". I think that if your "ROI" for your vacation comes down to the number of coasters you can get on for your dollar, and you couldn't care less about the nostalgia & storytelling of Haunted Mansion or Pirates... well, have fun at Six Flags, because you're a much different person than I