Are Oranges a good sign ... or just citrus?

[WDWFigment]

My biggest issue with it, now that I've had time to reread it and think more, is the oversimplification of the issues with Disney. And the fact that to follow Michael's train of thought, we all have to be more than just fans ... we have to be advocates for positive change.

Well, while I like positive change and advocate it (in my own Spirited way!:animwink ... I think when people are so out of touch with their product and its history and their fanbase etc, that in a capitalist economy they should be kicked out on their arses and replaced with those better capable of running WDW Co.

But I absolutely think you are wrong, Tom.

Disney does think that most of its fans are stupid, simple and easily placated and that selling citrus swirls (better than overrated Dole Whips to be sure!) or Orange Bird tees (80% that will wind up at Prop Control and outlets) or trotting out Ron 'I was Dreamfinder for maybe 11 months in ancient days and living in obscurity since until the fan community discovered me' Schneider at a fan event ... or putting out a line of merchandise with all the great stuff from WDW's four decades that no longer exists means they do NOT have to pay attention to the big stuff.

And I'm not talking just building major cutting edge attractions/areas like WWoHP. I'm speaking everything from letting the parks and infrastructure rot to making cutbacks to save money and let quality die a bit more to charging more and providing less.

No one (except publicity Merfie) is talking about RC DVC because the OB is back ... no one cares that WDW's food prices and selections and some of the most popular places just went up again because you can get a mediocre citrus dessert that was sold in the 70s and 80s.

And you are oversimplfying things if you believe that I think this is all about placating a dozen fanbois in the Twitverse. Since you know more about Social Media than I do (you probably do on many levels), you know that's not what it's about ... it's the message spreading.



Let's stop using 'conspiracy' ... I used it in a subject head of a thread I didn't expect to blow up as it did last summer and it isn't a word I'd use again. ... It also tends to try and take legitimacy away from the points I make regarding what TWDC is doing in social media by making it appear a group of evil MMC ear wearing twits are sitting around a table saying 'what is our next move to destroy the fan community/ BWAHH AHHHAHAA!'

It isn't, so let's move on ...



SEO is one of those wonderful newfangled Social Media metrics that I readily admit I don't understand enough to go back and forth with you. But I can guarantee you that the eyes of a NYT reader is more important than a Mommy Blogger from Ohio (who gets invited on free week-long trips with DH and DD11 and DS8 and DS3 to the product) because Disney owns those people.

You don't grow a business by simply targeting the same audience all over again ... the one you own.

McDonald's isn't trying to grow its business by selling Big Macs to 400-pounders because it owns them (and even some of us 175-pounders!) ... It is expanding offerings and trying to expand (successfully I might add) its business with other products and redesigned units ... hell, Apple earned a whole new audience when it created the iPad (those buys didn't all worship at the cult of Jobs, ya know?)

Disney gains little (or nothing at all) from focusing its social media efforts on fan lifestyle sites (they're preaching to the choirs just like all the folks who will be in church tomorrow for Easter or in temples for Passover).

You grow your business with new audiences and guests largely ... and you are going to get far more out of the NYT than a blog.





I have ... and am tired of repeating myself. You and I both know that a blogger who has never been treated special in his/her life when given free trips and gifts and invites to private parties and access to talk to execs, celebs and Imagineers is going to be like a 12-year-old who discovers naughty pics online for the first time.

For me to sit here and just take shots at the Ricky Brigantes Jim Hills, Lou Mongellos, Tom Corless', Jeff Langes, Adrienne-Vincent Phoenixs of the world etc is just a waste of time. I am not here to keep pointing out how the vast majority of online folks who own sites never have a bad thing to say about Disney and, if they do ... like Lutz and Yee ... they never get invited to anything!

Worse, I've had some of these lunatics attempt to come after me (even stalk my family) because they fail to understand that by putting themselves in the public eye that makes them open for criticism just like a REAL writer for say the NYT ... they don't get the fact that celebrity ... even 'online Disney fan community celebrity' comes with the fact people DO get to question them, their motives and the like.

That's more true now than ever. ... Again, I'll pay for a list of Disney's online invites to the Carsland opening and what is being given to each and every blogger/podcaster etc.




Again, I didn't use that word here, so can we leave it out?

But when D23 was formed it wasn't formed because Disney cared about the fans. It was because Bob Iger was furious that there was so much inside info and negative comments about the company and his leadership out there. That the fan community was controlling the message and not Disney's marketing machine. Hell, they wanted to put of business Tales From the Laughing Place (a publication created lovingly by one of their contractors) and replace it with a glossy ad for all that is TWDC ... sadly, they succeeded.

And if you don't want to engage in open communication with the fans then say it. Don't lie. Don't have twits like Blondie and Tommy tweeting inane crap about 'headed to EPCOT for lunch: should I do Lotus Blossum or Sunshine Seasons?' and acting (and that is what it is ... I have worked in PR and with PR pros much of my life) like they're one of you. They are not.



Don't mistake the ineptitude of the Celebration Place Social Media Cabal's work as meaning they aren't looking to control as much as possible. That IS part of their employment brief. They are there to influence as many in the fan community as they can.

The fact that some of them tweet with you or will smile and hand you an Orange Bird pin at a D23 event doesn't make them your friend.

It's PR ... and PR is known as BS ... or spin.




I'm not complaining abut steps in the right direction. I am complaining about people reading waaaay too much into small things and giving Disney all sorts of kudos while the place rots away in general. Get the Yeti fixed. Get the lights on the GF looking like the place isn't rundown. Get the monorails running right. Give us a new parade once a decade. Add an attraction worthy of the Disney name. Don't tell me that retro tees and retro desserts mean anything more than a feeble attempt by 'net savvy middle managers to improve their OWN bottom lines.

Oh, and I have seen some new merchandise in resorts ... BW comes to mind (didn't spend much time in the resorts this trip) ... but when I see it everywhere from All Star Music to Coronado to Saratoga to Poly etc than I'll give credit. Not yet.



Yes, but they're wasting a lot of energy on something insignificant and reading way too much into it.

You know what I'd say about the citrus swirl? One line in an observation thread: ''Nice to see the old citrus swirls back on the menu at STT.'' That's it.

And this is a fundamental difference with DL fans. They took away the only in DL and nowhere else on earth Fantasia ice cream about 7-8 years ago (really ed me off!), but the fan community out there was more concerned with DL rotting and DCA not being good enough and that was where their focus stayed.

And look what they have to show for themselves now ... I'd swap a citrus swirl for a non-ghetto Splash Mountain or a few new parades!

~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~

Just as you use the term "Walmarting" for effect, I'm going to continue to refer to this social media issue as a "social media conspiracy" for effect. Well, not just for effect--because I truly believe it to be on par with a conspiracy theory. I know exactly what my term connotes, and I think it's appropriate.

SEO (search engine optimization) is not a term that (necessarily) pertains to social media. It primarily pertains to Google.

I'll give you an example: the New York Times publishes an online article on the Disney Fantasy. In one day, that could receive, let's say, 10,000-50,000 clicks depending upon where it's located on the site. Many of these will be disinterested clicks that just stumble upon the story as they peruse the website and have no intention of booking a cruise, ever. By contrast, few fan sites Disney invites will receive that many clicks in one day. However, many of these sites will have reviews that rank higher on Google than the NYT.

These reviews may only receive 2,000 clicks on day one, but they will have substantially more residual traffic thanks to their rank on Google. Moreover, their traffic is coming from a primed audience (who is more likely to book a cruise--someone doing a search on Google or a random reader of the NYT?). A primed audience isn't necessarily an audience that Disney has already captured. Just because someone searches for "Disney Cruise Ship" on Google or happens to listen to a Disney podcast doesn't mean that Disney already owns them (I listen to multiple Disney podcasts yet I've never taken a Disney cruise) in the same way McDonald's owns a patron that visits their restaurant everyday (for what it's worth, McDonald's has a STAGGERING social media budget, too).

At least a few of the people you mention by name (in the fan community) spend huge sums of money in the Disney theme parks annually. You say that taking shots at them is a waste of time, yet that's exactly what you're doing by mentioning them by name given the context of your comments. Not everything they do (or even most things!) that pertain to Disney are comped. You've mentioned before that you've never listened to a Disney podcast; so what is the basis for your statements that these people are 'whores' for Disney? Given the circumstances, isn't it entirely possible that these people are huge Disney fans and some people who are really passionate about Disney tend to focus on the positive? I mean the existence of this type of fan should be apparent to you based upon your encounters with your critics in these threads who think Disney can do no wrong.

I'm not saying that all of these podcasters/Disney internet celebrities truly think Disney can do no wrong, but given that you don't know them, aren't familiar with their work, and also the huge sums of personal money they spend on Disney, isn't it possible that they have the same sort of blinders on that some people here have on? Or even, to a lesser extent, that they are positive people and would rather focus on the positive aspects of Disney?

I guess my basic point here is that you seem (to me at least) to imply that there are some seriously nefarious motives on both sides of the aisle in the realm of Disney social media. I do not doubt that some people have such motives, and continue to give Disney positive coverage because they want "more free stuff." However, I think there are much more reasonable explanations, too.

As for the resort merchandise, I've seen it in recent months at every DVC & Deluxe resort I've visited, plus Fort Wilderness and Caribbean Beach. I can't recall if there was anything at Coronado Springs when we were there in December. We haven't visited the Values in a while, so I can't speak to those.

I never said there was anything wrong with it. I've noticed a trend over the last year or so to give some huge significance to the Orange Bird (who wasn't that significant when he was significant) and now an old dessert returns.

If people like them, great. I think the exuberance is a bit over the top when the resort is falling apart.

Look, I enjoyed the new menu at the Tomorrowland Terrace (I may have actually mentioned it before my trip observation thread was taken over by a non Norwegian troll!), but I simply mentioned it in passing and didn't decide it was a sign that Disney cares and that things are getting better.

The fact is things are getting better all over WDW on a micro level ... I could probably list 5-10 just off the top of my head ... BUT since the whole resort continues to tread water or head downward on the macro level, I find it hard to get excited about the smaller things.

And I have to ask you an honest question since you do blog and are part of (at least) one Disney site ... but are you looking to be part of the Disney Social Media machine? Seriously, would you in a heartbeat take a paycut and relocate to Orlando to be ... say the WDW photo expert dude for The Disney Parks Blog?

~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~

Indianapolis is hardly my favorite city in the world, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't considered seeking employment in TWDC at some time in the future. I have a few friends who have gone to work in different divisions in Burbank and Glendale (as employees, not Cast Members) and they've liked it. That said, I'd have to be presented with a position offering comparable pay to what I presently make as an attorney, as well as great potential for upward mobility. So I guess that's neither a direct 'yes' or 'no' to your question.

Maybe I am hopelessly optimistic, but I think things are getting better rather than worse. Unlike others, I'm not about to give corner-cutting a pass because of the economy (how can you as prices and numbers continue to increase--the larger economy is irrelevant given that the "Disney economy" is doing well) and it does bother me that so many ill-conceived projects are being floated and advanced, but it does seem like there's more of a willingness to improve the resort. PLENTY is still wrong with WDW, but I don't think you can undo a decade-plus worth of damage overnight. It bothers me that budgets for NEEDED projects continue to be cut, but I think overall, steps are being made in the right direction. Again, perhaps that's me being overly optimistic. I don't think I'm a head-in-the-sand praise everything Disney does type person, but I also realize I'm not as overtly critical as some.

I read your observation threads and agree with a lot of what you say. As I've said before, I don't agree with the way you say it, but I do agree with the substance. I also think that sometimes you're grasping at straws or making some tenuous conclusions. But I appreciate your posts more than the inane ramblings of people arbitrarily proclaiming that a new sheriff is in town, without anything to back up their wild theories.

 

[Figments Friend]

...... I hate that EPCOT is no longer the park I love.
.........

They've destroyed the most popular attraction in the park in Imagination, and turned an imaginative, original, whimsical, endearing and immersive 11 minute experience into a four minute fart joke with a spoiled, bratty little dragon, who was once EPCOT's most beloved and cherished character.....

WOW.....

:sohappy:

Your words describing what became of JII pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

So true....and thus so sad.

 

[OrangeTree]

Given the circumstances, isn't it entirely possible that these people are huge Disney fans and some people who are really passionate about Disney tend to focus on the positive? I mean the existence of this type of fan should be apparent to you based upon your encounters with your critics in these threads who think Disney can do no wrong.

But even so, this isn't the heart of the matter, for this issue.

The issue is the most people are flip flopped on this!

As I said in my post ( http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=4923405&postcount=60 it was added in, was awaiting approval from the mods, as I am new) this is the sort of thing that is usually a positive for those that tend to be more critical of the parks.

And now suddenly, it's bemoaned, as it's popular?

I think some are also getting lost in the bit of the "fad" that's come along with this.

Yes, the "#CultOfCitrus" is a thing. So? Does a silly fad take away from the fact that something good happened in the MK?

No. It shouldn't.

Spirit said in his somewhere in the thread that he would welcome this as a good change.

Yet, I think all the bad buzz around it is that it's popular and there's a social media component.

Social Media isn't inherently a good thing or a bad thing. It depends on how you use it, and how you allow youself to be controlled by it.

...if Disney adding things BACK to the parks is a byproduct of the twitterverse, the more power to those that can stand the service. It might mean more of that in the future. A small victory... even if Disney gets to make money off of it.

 

[yeti]

Sell the parks....please...

 

[OrangeTree]

Sell the parks....please...

:lol:

Now that's a oldie...

...Do Saudi princes like Orange Birds?

.......and a even better question: If a Saudi Prince bought Disney World and brought back OB to his perch, would be still be complaining?

Tough questions !!

 

[yeti]

I hate to regurgitate anything that's already been said here, but I don't see how anyone could be remotely enthusiastic about a damned bird?!

The way I see it (and the past several years have proved it), the fact that more and more merchandise invoking feelings of Yesterworld is hitting store shelves is not an indication of any shift in the sensibilities upstairs. You're a consumer. You invest in a product, and if you're part of a majority, you'll be able to buy more of it. If they put an orange bird back in the parks with an old drink, it stands to reason that perhaps you'll buy MORE OB shirts! Whatever sells. I know I'm stating the obvious, but it seems to me that people are forgetting that when they see a Dreamfinder sweater or notice his appearance at Destination D and think "Oh wow, this...this is a sign. Imagination re-do? *posts thread considering the possibility*"

"But we got a citrus swirl, surely we're making a difference somehow". Sure, you could be. But I think the substantiality of that difference is in the eye of the beholder. This relates back to the point of the original article: that we should reward quality where we see it. If "Michael" is hinting at the citrus swirl as being some sort of minuscule emergence in quality, I would say he's dead wrong. If anything, it's just a sign of how powerless we as fans really are. All of our complaining, all those OBie pins and keychains we buy, all the Disney dollars we've spent getting drunk on nostalgia at D23 conventions, and we're compensated with what- a frozen beverage? Oh yeah, it's a wonderful time to be a fanboi.

"Just because you think it's small doesn't mean it is." Well, fine. Enjoy your slurpee then. But let me tell you this...is the return of the citrus swirl what you consider something "good" happening at the MK? Have you ever considered that the drink and the "I look good in orange" t-shirt you just bought are one in the same, in terms of their eye-grabbing quality, their motive, and their gain? Do you think a refurbishment of...I don't know, say...Space Mountain could possibly generate as much gain? Do you think Jennifer on the Disney Parks Blog tells you to "sound-off in the comments" because she legitimately cares whether or not you like the orange bird?

"Brainfreeze!" Yeah, you're not kidding.

~It's just citrus.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

Oh....this thread is TOO much.



*goes back to drinking some OJ*

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

this isn't a "conSPIRITcy"

 

[Mansion Butler]

I just wanted to post an I Support Tom notice, instead of simply repeating everything he's already said just fine.

I Support Tom

On a related note, someone wrote this in the comments:

To your last paragraph, thank the Cast Members who do good. Who seem like they want to do good. Who are fitting the ideal of what makes Disney theme parks great, and embrace making them as great as they can be from all you can tell.

Don’t just thank them, take a moment now and then and stop by Guest Relations. Write letters. Don’t just let them know they’ve improved your stay and your interest in coming back, LET THEIR SUPERIORS KNOW HOW GREAT THE BEST CAST MEMBERS ARE.

You know why? Because guest commendations go a long way when it comes time to stuff like promotions. You — yes you fair guest — can have a hand in making sure the front line Cast Members of today that you love become the important decision makers of tomorrow that you also love.

I am completely and totally serious.

(S?)He's right.

 

[WDW1974]

Or maybe it's all our fault for stampeding for Epcot 25 shirts and Figment plushes almost 5 years ago....

"Wow. We sold out of all that stuff."

"Let's make some more retro stuff and see how it sells"

I don't think it's our fault ... and I wouldn't/don't fault folks for buying retro stuff.

I think I bought one of the first EPCOT retro tees around 2005 before they were even marketing a line ... it was one grey shirt with the logos on the front in green and the old WDW logo on one sleeve. Didn't sell well either as I got it for $9.99 in the park.

The problem is simply mistaking retro anything for retro QUALITY and retro BUSINESS MODELS/PRACTICES.

I don't want the false belief that I am against retro merchandise or food, even if it provides fodder for me fans in the Twitverse who won't post here.

 

[WDW1974]

In reply to 74s long post:

Basically you're telling everyone to stop enjoying the Disney product. Nevermind what it used to be and all that. You're telling them to stop enjoying it at all.

No, I am NOT.

Not at all.

Hell, if I can still enjoy much of the product how would you come to such a strange conclusion?:shrug:

 

[WDW1974]

I don't think Spirit is saying not to enjoy these things, just don't be distracted by "the pretty lights."

That IS indeed what I was saying.

It's just like people focusing on pavement in Storybook Circus or scrims ... or anything of little substance ... imagine the fan reaction when they announce that Spectro-Magic is headed back ... again.:hurl:

The focus is on small stuff, while the big picture (which is bad) gets blurred.

How much attention should an inconsequential character from the 70s/80s get now? As someone brought up, do they really want to start showing the OB doing songs with Anita 'I Hate Gays' Bryant? How many of those gay WDW CMs and fanbois even realize the association?

How about we focus on all the trees that are going be destroyed and all the traffic that will come to the only respite of the old green WDW resort with the new FW/RC DVC (thanks to pal Merfie for putting the plans out!) on the way?

Or perhaps the fact that WDW has NOTHING major coming to its parks for another year (depending on when Mermaid and B&B dining opens)?

Or that prices continue to be absurd for the O-Town market. $134 a night for a value motel room?!?!

 

[WDW1974]

Oh ... new blood in MAGICal waters ... should I be gentle or my Spirited self?:goodnevil

To me, this whole "return" of the Orange Bird honestly isn't a big deal.

In the long run, this is sadly meaningless.

But.... And there's always a but...

Ah, but to hear some fans (including Michael Crawford) tell it, it's not meaningless. It's the start of what was and what could be again. If we just are all activist fans.

I think this does show some uptake on Disney's part ON SOME LEVEL that they do know that fans appreciate history.

Are they using this for profit? Of course. But better for them to make profit over something historical than just something stupid, as they've done in years past.

I think the area food and beverage manager is 'net savvy (or may even recall when the item was served) and was simply looking to improve his/her location's numbers. Sometimes, the simplest explanation is the real one ... everything isn't a conspiracy as the counsel from Indy would tell us all!:wave:

Would you rather have this centering around Duffy? Stitch? Princesses? Pirates?

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

I disagree adamantly that the OB is meaningless and just a part of a old partnership with Disney. He's something from Florida. He's something attached to the unique texture and history that Disney has in Florida. He's ours. Not Disneyland's. Not Japan's, even though they have adopted him.

As a obscure Floridian icon, it's simply nice to see Disney recognizing their history, if just for profit. He's a Floridian thing. As a Floridian who has lived in this state all of his life, it's a good thing when something campy or YES, NOSTALGIC, is given it's dues.

Further, the OB is indicative that someone, somewhere knows what Disney needs to be unique again.

It's a small thing, but it helps. It helps a ton. It makes Adventureland regain a bit of it's lost flavor that we all love and miss.

I don't see it that way. They can't even return the damn torches to the roofline ... Adventureland has lost its sense of place like much of MK ... the Adventureland Veranada, which was until its closure in the mid-90s, the second largest QSR in the MK is a fairy meet-greet-and-grope.

Almost every shop that wasn't shuttered has seen its merchandise moved outside with the interiors turned into storage or office space.

Another area that had three unique high end shops has become seating area for a location that until VERY recently was open 2-3 months a year and, even now, isn't open for more than lunch.

And let's not even talk about the spinner abomination (although I had one kewl ride on it a few weeks ago ... more up and down than most adult films!)

Small thing? Yes. Larger implications and meaning? Maybe. A great deal of negativity made over something that should be positive? Absolutely.

Yes. Don't think so. Really don't think so.

Anyway... first post. It's about time I stopped reading the Spirit (and the Lee and the Steve and the WDWFigment) and started talking to them too....

Welcome. I hope I wasn't too hard on ya. I do believe new members are a great thing (provided you aren't another incarnation of that bullsfortheloss troll) ... It also helps when they come in and don't immediately attack people who have been here for years.

 

[WDW1974]

Just as you use the term "Walmarting" for effect, I'm going to continue to refer to this social media issue as a "social media conspiracy" for effect. Well, not just for effect--because I truly believe it to be on par with a conspiracy theory. I know exactly what my term connotes, and I think it's appropriate.

Well, you can use whatever words you choose. But again, I question your motives here ... do you want to be part of the Disney Lifestyle crowd? I think it's a fair question after viewing your Linkedin profile.

I don't want to take what will come off as shots, but it sure appears like your profession is Disney 'expert' and social media guru with attorney well down the list ... sorta like it's a temp job until you can move to O-town and join the gravy train. Now ... is that just a conspiracy theory too? Or is it realistic that a lawyer who lists Disney websites over being a lawyer is looking to follow in Lou Mongello's large footsteps?:shrug:

(OK, that may have been a bit low ... you don't look nearly as slimey as Lou and you do take shots at Disney about once every 16 weeks!:ROFLOL

SEO (search engine optimization) is not a term that (necessarily) pertains to social media. It primarily pertains to Google.

I'll give you an example: the New York Times publishes an online article on the Disney Fantasy. In one day, that could receive, let's say, 10,000-50,000 clicks depending upon where it's located on the site. Many of these will be disinterested clicks that just stumble upon the story as they peruse the website and have no intention of booking a cruise, ever. By contrast, few fan sites Disney invites will receive that many clicks in one day. However, many of these sites will have reviews that rank higher on Google than the NYT.

No matter what Josh and Shell tell Disney, those clicks don't translate to sales and they can't prove that they ever do. I am sure that today's story on the Fantasy in the Miami Herald travel section will book more cruisers than Sue Ellen's Guide to Taking Your Kids on a Disney Cruise Vacation!

Google doesn't control the world, any more than Facebook does. And many folks (smartly) are leaving the latter and realizing they really don't want Mark and Sheryl and Co to have control over every bit of personal info they ever place on FB for infinity and beyond. People who proclaim themselves experts in SEO and online analytics will often admit when cornered that they are sorta ... clueless beyond the abstract ... I met one such very high level consultant on my Disney Magic Transatlantic cruise ... and despite his awards and accolades when I visited his offices (Celebration Place, naturally) I couldn't help but think 'scammer' and 'this smells almost like a Ponzi scheme'.

These reviews may only receive 2,000 clicks on day one, but they will have substantially more residual traffic thanks to their rank on Google. Moreover, their traffic is coming from a primed audience (who is more likely to book a cruise--someone doing a search on Google or a random reader of the NYT?). A primed audience isn't necessarily an audience that Disney has already captured. Just because someone searches for "Disney Cruise Ship" on Google or happens to listen to a Disney podcast doesn't mean that Disney already owns them (I listen to multiple Disney podcasts yet I've never taken a Disney cruise) in the same way McDonald's owns a patron that visits their restaurant everyday (for what it's worth, McDonald's has a STAGGERING social media budget, too).

And a 'primed' cruiser is likely going to book that first (and likely many others) cruises by going to DCL.com ... not by reading how much Doobie loved his FREE cruise on LP.com or how much Mongello had the time of his life on his free cruise on WDWRadio.com etc etc.

MOST, not all, but most of those eyes are people already familiar with the Disney product and prone to spend on it.

They don't increase audiences and my advice would be if you believe it, come up with some BS metric that you can convince the Celebration Place Social Media Cabal to sell to DCL and TDO and you'll be having Sarah packing up the boxes before the media parties for the 'new Fantasyland' ... and being on the inside means you get to walk away with lots of extra pin sets and media gifts that you can then eBay!:wave:

At least a few of the people you mention by name (in the fan community) spend huge sums of money in the Disney theme parks annually. You say that taking shots at them is a waste of time, yet that's exactly what you're doing by mentioning them by name given the context of your comments. Not everything they do (or even most things!) that pertain to Disney are comped.

Tom, you realize you are talking to a media pro here. Someone who attended his first junket in 1990 to celebrate the opening of the Disney Dolphin and the expansion of Disney-MGM Studios. I well understand how PR .... and now the extension that is social media works.

Tell me, who spends huge sums in the parks? Name anyone who will honestly claim that.

Tell me, how many of the folks who cruised for free last year on the Dream have actually spent their own money to book it again? Any one? But I bet none of them has suggested a non DCL cruise, right?

Telll me, how many who may have taken another cruise or stay at WDW resorts aren't paying media rates?

Do you know/understand media rates? Do you know I once paid $60 a night for a week at the WL, so my company wouldn't be labeled as being 'bought' by Disney PR. Do you know the average rate at the time was over $200? Do you understand that Disney can easily give bloggers and podcasters and webmasters 'media rates' so people can't accuse them of freebies (and then take a tax write-off as a loss ... because a week at the WL isn't $420!)

Do you know how easy it is to get a publicist to hand you meal vouchers?

Don't you think if I was simply full of pooh that some of them (any) would have the cajones to come on here and state what they pay and what they don't?

Again, I have lots of experience. I have been invited to WDW events as either media or VIP from 1990 until 2005 (turned down the LMA invite as I didn't want to be around the folks who Disney was starting to attract, not to mention the publicity hacks). Been to DL events from the 90s right on until very recently (was invited to WoC and had to cancel due to an 'evildoer' but that's another story ... may be going to Carsland's debut as well -- as VIP, not media)

You've mentioned before that you've never listened to a Disney podcast; so what is the basis for your statements that these people are 'whores' for Disney? Given the circumstances, isn't it entirely possible that these people are huge Disney fans and some people who are really passionate about Disney tend to focus on the positive? I mean the existence of this type of fan should be apparent to you based upon your encounters with your critics in these threads who think Disney can do no wrong.

I have now sampled quite a few podcasts. And while I like some of the individuals, I don't like the general concept. Most of them sound like dudes who wish they were doing a morning drive show on a radio station in Boston, NYC or Philly.

And when I hear one of the big names absolutely rip Disney for something, then ... then I might believe some have an iota of legitimacy to them.

I think I'll be waiting a long time.

I'm not saying that all of these podcasters/Disney internet celebrities truly think Disney can do no wrong, but given that you don't know them, aren't familiar with their work, and also the huge sums of personal money they spend on Disney, isn't it possible that they have the same sort of blinders on that some people here have on? Or even, to a lesser extent, that they are positive people and would rather focus on the positive aspects of Disney?

I guess my basic point here is that you seem (to me at least) to imply that there are some seriously nefarious motives on both sides of the aisle in the realm of Disney social media. I do not doubt that some people have such motives, and continue to give Disney positive coverage because they want "more free stuff." However, I think there are much more reasonable explanations, too.

Again, I'd love to know who is spending huge sums of money on Disney ... I read enough Twitter and hear enough from my own minions of darkness of how these people largely conduct themselves to believe they have the money to spend to begin with. ... AFIW, I have found many of them to be bitter vile personalities once they aren't 'on' ... the catfights they have because they want to gain stature in Disney's pecking order is a delight of mine because let's face it ... tomorrow there will likely be 532 new Disney Lifestyle sites, but Disney can't give freebies to all. So, they basically have to fight each other.

You want to look at the positive possibilities. That's fine. But I don't have a pony in this race. You own one site and provide content to others and claim to be an expert in social media ... one might think that you're the Brian Charles Kohn of this era (points to anyone who knows who this dude was, I guess he could still be alive!) and just pushing for a job with Disney yourself. Again, not taking a shot, just doing what a good lawyer would ... looking at the facts and extrapoltaing a reasonable summation from what I see.:drevil:

I have folks swearing that Mongello is employed by Disney and possesses a main gate pass, but no one can prove it to me. If they do, I'll guarantee them the front page in the Orlando Sentinel (and beyond) because of what it means about ethics and blurred boundries ...

As for the resort merchandise, I've seen it in recent months at every DVC & Deluxe resort I've visited, plus Fort Wilderness and Caribbean Beach. I can't recall if there was anything at Coronado Springs when we were there in December. We haven't visited the Values in a while, so I can't speak to those.

Good to hear. Like I said, didn't spend much time at resorts this time, but did see new stuff at BW.

Indianapolis is hardly my favorite city in the world, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't considered seeking employment in TWDC at some time in the future. I have a few friends who have gone to work in different divisions in Burbank and Glendale (as employees, not Cast Members) and they've liked it. That said, I'd have to be presented with a position offering comparable pay to what I presently make as an attorney, as well as great potential for upward mobility. So I guess that's neither a direct 'yes' or 'no' to your question.

No, it's a lawyerly answer. But you may, in all seriousness, be a perfect fit for what the Mouse is attempting. You certainly have more knowledge than most of Social Media's talking heads.

But even with a substantial pay cut ... if that happens ... it's Disney ... it's Dreams, it's Wishes ... it's MAGIC. And the blog could send you on cruises and all over the world, really. ... And think of cast discounts ... those 40% off breakfasts at Kouzzina and lunches at Captain's Grille aren't bad!

Maybe I am hopelessly optimistic, but I think things are getting better rather than worse.

You are!

Unlike others, I'm not about to give corner-cutting a pass because of the economy (how can you as prices and numbers continue to increase--the larger economy is irrelevant given that the "Disney economy" is doing well) and it does bother me that so many ill-conceived projects are being floated and advanced, but it does seem like there's more of a willingness to improve the resort.

Where do you see it? Examples, please. You are under MAGICal oath!

PLENTY is still wrong with WDW, but I don't think you can undo a decade-plus worth of damage overnight. It bothers me that budgets for NEEDED projects continue to be cut, but I think overall, steps are being made in the right direction. Again, perhaps that's me being overly optimistic. I don't think I'm a head-in-the-sand praise everything Disney does type person, but I also realize I'm not as overtly critical as some.

I read your observation threads and agree with a lot of what you say. As I've said before, I don't agree with the way you say it, but I do agree with the substance. I also think that sometimes you're grasping at straws or making some tenuous conclusions. But I appreciate your posts more than the inane ramblings of people arbitrarily proclaiming that a new sheriff is in town, without anything to back up their wild theories.

Well, thanks ... and it goes both ways (wouldn't have offered advice or help with your Tokyo trip otherwise! I don't help people I can't stand as a rule!)

But as I told Lee recently, it is scary but I really do know what I am talking about most of the time.

And I think Social Media and how Disney uses it would be one ... but I'd be glad to let you buy me a citrus swirl and 'splain just how I am wrong.

 

[WDW1974]

One final thought ... piece of advice on the food end of this, but if you are happy with the citrus swirl coming back or have other compliments or complaints regarding your MK dining experiences, I would advise contacting Liz Clark, head of MK Food and Beverage.

I have no idea if it is OK to put her phone number here (don't understand why it wouldn't be) .... but the final four digits are 5994.

 

[WDWFigment]

Well, you can use whatever words you choose. But again, I question your motives here ... do you want to be part of the Disney Lifestyle crowd? I think it's a fair question after viewing your Linkedin profile.

I don't want to take what will come off as shots, but it sure appears like your profession is Disney 'expert' and social media guru with attorney well down the list ... sorta like it's a temp job until you can move to O-town and join the gravy train. Now ... is that just a conspiracy theory too? Or is it realistic that a lawyer who lists Disney websites over being a lawyer is looking to follow in Lou Mongello's large footsteps?:shrug:

(OK, that may have been a bit low ... you don't look nearly as slimey as Lou and you do take shots at Disney about once every 16 weeks!:ROFLOL

My LinkedIn profile appears the way that it does because TouringPlans and my website have more recent start dates than my job as an attorney. Aside from that ordering (which I don't control), I think the legal areas of my profile are emphasized more than anything else (not only that, but "Attorney" is listed in my byline--not that other stuff). I do marketing & photography for TouringPlans (a site for which Merf also works, FWIW), which is why those skills are listed. Not because I'm seeking a job with Disney. Given that almost all of my connections are attorneys or people with whom I previously worked in IT when I was in college, I'd be doing a pretty lousy job of Disney-networking if that were the case.

I take shots at Disney once every 16 weeks? Come on. If you can find my LinkedIn profile, you can find my Twitter profile (or even my post history here) and see that clearly isn't true. I take shots on a daily basis.

No matter what Josh and Shell tell Disney, those clicks don't translate to sales and they can't prove that they ever do. I am sure that today's story on the Fantasy in the Miami Herald travel section will book more cruisers than Sue Ellen's Guide to Taking Your Kids on a Disney Cruise Vacation!

Google doesn't control the world, any more than Facebook does. And many folks (smartly) are leaving the latter and realizing they really don't want Mark and Sheryl and Co to have control over every bit of personal info they ever place on FB for infinity and beyond. People who proclaim themselves experts in SEO and online analytics will often admit when cornered that they are sorta ... clueless beyond the abstract ... I met one such very high level consultant on my Disney Magic Transatlantic cruise ... and despite his awards and accolades when I visited his offices (Celebration Place, naturally) I couldn't help but think 'scammer' and 'this smells almost like a Ponzi scheme'.

And a 'primed' cruiser is likely going to book that first (and likely many others) cruises by going to DCL.com ... not by reading how much Doobie loved his FREE cruise on LP.com or how much Mongello had the time of his life on his free cruise on WDWRadio.com etc etc.

MOST, not all, but most of those eyes are people already familiar with the Disney product and prone to spend on it.

They don't increase audiences and my advice would be if you believe it, come up with some BS metric that you can convince the Celebration Place Social Media Cabal to sell to DCL and TDO and you'll be having Sarah packing up the boxes before the media parties for the 'new Fantasyland' ... and being on the inside means you get to walk away with lots of extra pin sets and media gifts that you can then eBay!:wave:

I disagree with you that a random person reading the Miami Herald is more likely to book a cruise than someone specifically searching for cruises on Google. I also disagree that people are leaving Facebook and Google (in mass) because of privacy concerns. The privacy concerns are there (and a little scary, to be sure) for some people, but you're not seeing any mass exodus from Facebook and Google. I'm sure the next big thing will come along at some point and siphon users away from one or the other, or both, but we're not at that point.

Tom, you realize you are talking to a media pro here. Someone who attended his first junket in 1990 to celebrate the opening of the Disney Dolphin and the expansion of Disney-MGM Studios. I well understand how PR .... and now the extension that is social media works.

Tell me, who spends huge sums in the parks? Name anyone who will honestly claim that.

Tell me, how many of the folks who cruised for free last year on the Dream have actually spent their own money to book it again? Any one? But I bet none of them has suggested a non DCL cruise, right?

Telll me, how many who may have taken another cruise or stay at WDW resorts aren't paying media rates?

Do you know/understand media rates? Do you know I once paid $60 a night for a week at the WL, so my company wouldn't be labeled as being 'bought' by Disney PR. Do you know the average rate at the time was over $200? Do you understand that Disney can easily give bloggers and podcasters and webmasters 'media rates' so people can't accuse them of freebies (and then take a tax write-off as a loss ... because a week at the WL isn't $420!)

Do you know how easy it is to get a publicist to hand you meal vouchers?

Don't you think if I was simply full of pooh that some of them (any) would have the cajones to come on here and state what they pay and what they don't?

Again, I have lots of experience. I have been invited to WDW events as either media or VIP from 1990 until 2005 (turned down the LMA invite as I didn't want to be around the folks who Disney was starting to attract, not to mention the publicity hacks). Been to DL events from the 90s right on until very recently (was invited to WoC and had to cancel due to an 'evildoer' but that's another story ... may be going to Carsland's debut as well -- as VIP, not media).

I have now sampled quite a few podcasts. And while I like some of the individuals, I don't like the general concept. Most of them sound like dudes who wish they were doing a morning drive show on a radio station in Boston, NYC or Philly.

And when I hear one of the big names absolutely rip Disney for something, then ... then I might believe some have an iota of legitimacy to them.

I think I'll be waiting a long time.

Again, I'd love to know who is spending huge sums of money on Disney ... I read enough Twitter and hear enough from my own minions of darkness of how these people largely conduct themselves to believe they have the money to spend to begin with. ... AFIW, I have found many of them to be bitter vile personalities once they aren't 'on' ... the catfights they have because they want to gain stature in Disney's pecking order is a delight of mine because let's face it ... tomorrow there will likely be 532 new Disney Lifestyle sites, but Disney can't give freebies to all. So, they basically have to fight each other.

You want to look at the positive possibilities. That's fine. But I don't have a pony in this race. You own one site and provide content to others and claim to be an expert in social media ... one might think that you're the Brian Charles Kohn of this era (points to anyone who knows who this dude was, I guess he could still be alive!) and just pushing for a job with Disney yourself. Again, not taking a shot, just doing what a good lawyer would ... looking at the facts and extrapoltaing a reasonable summation from what I see.:drevil:

I have folks swearing that Mongello is employed by Disney and possesses a main gate pass, but no one can prove it to me. If they do, I'll guarantee them the front page in the Orlando Sentinel (and beyond) because of what it means about ethics and blurred boundries ...

I would hazard a guess that plenty of the people you're attacking (even if indirectly) have read these threads and are biting their tongues because they realize it's a no-win proposition for them. If they come in and defend themselves, there will just be something new--even if what they're doing is totally innocuous.

And, to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying what everyone is doing is totally innocuous. I'm sure a lot of these people have poor motives (there's a certain group that Disney is attracting with its social media campaigns that is not the "Disney Lifestyle Sites" that comes to mind in particular); I don't know everyone's thought processes. I just think you might be reading too much into the behavior of some people.

Good to hear. Like I said, didn't spend much time at resorts this time, but did see new stuff at BW.

No, it's a lawyerly answer. But you may, in all seriousness, be a perfect fit for what the Mouse is attempting. You certainly have more knowledge than most of Social Media's talking heads.

But even with a substantial pay cut ... if that happens ... it's Disney ... it's Dreams, it's Wishes ... it's MAGIC. And the blog could send you on cruises and all over the world, really. ... And think of cast discounts ... those 40% off breakfasts at Kouzzina and lunches at Captain's Grille aren't bad!

Regardless of whether I'd be a good fit, I still live in the real world where I have a mortgage, car payments, and other bills that I presumably can't pay with pixie dust, magic, and the like.

I'm quite in content with my current career and the Disney-related "stuff" on the side. I'm not the biggest fan of Indianapolis, but I'm not about to make some brash career change after being out of school for less than two years--especially when the change would not make an iota of sense from an economic perspective.

You are!



Where do you see it? Examples, please. You are under MAGICal oath!




Well, thanks ... and it goes both ways (wouldn't have offered advice or help with your Tokyo trip otherwise! I don't help people I can't stand as a rule!)

But as I told Lee recently, it is scary but I really do know what I am talking about most of the time.

And I think Social Media and how Disney uses it would be one ... but I'd be glad to let you buy me a citrus swirl and 'splain just how I am wrong.

Here's where I see improvements:
-Main Street refurbishments
-Fantasyland detail
-Merchandise
-Menus (yes, really--and not just because of the Citrus Swirl)
-Big CapEx investments
-Resort (hotel) refurbishments

Just so it's clear that I'm not some rosy "everything is great and MAGICal" type person, here's the flip side (and you'll notice more substantial problems on this list)...

Here's where I see faults:
-CapEx investments that are a bit misguided, unnecessary, or not truly in the best interest of the parks (constant DVC expansion, Avatarland (even though I don't hate the idea like some, I think it's at least misguided), NextGen)
-Monorails
-Yeti
-Downtown Disney
-A good chunk of Future World
-Imbalance and thematic "issues" at DHS

Those are just some examples that quickly come to mind... (does that fulfill my once-in-16-weeks negatively quota? ). Of course, if I had to make the same list for Disneyland, the 'faults' side would be MUCH shorter!

Also, just because I use and (I think) understand social media doesn't mean that I think how it's being used is a great thing. I just think it's difficult to assign blame or fault. I still think some (many) things occurring as a result of the rise of social media aren't great. The idea of InsidEARs displacing forums like this is cause for concern (although it appears nothing has happened with that in several months, so maybe there's no cause for concern). I lament the loss (or at least decrease) in real journalism in favor of new online media. I'm not saying I'd rather have a bunch of Disney blogs covering cruises than the NYT or Miami Herald covering them, I'm saying I can see Disney's rationale in going that route. It's a business decision, and I don't think it's a bad one. I also don't think most of these "Disney Lifestyle" website owners/podcasters/whatever have the type of motives you think they have. Some very well may.

 

[flynnibus]

sounds like WDW1974 has a problem with new media in general and mixing with a little PR leads to a voltile mix for him.

Communities are huge in the new world... especially if they can be positive communities.

The newer generations are far more open with their privacy - Google and Facebook represent so much value in terms of 'getting there first'. These are not fads nor fakes.

It's not just about how many eyes - but the weight of the impression. That's why communities are so valuable.. they help give weight to a source.

 

[OrangeTree]

But let me tell you this...is the return of the citrus swirl what you consider something "good" happening at the MK? .

Of course it is. A small detail was added back. Nothing more, nothing less.

At face value, this is a good thing. The whole nebulous realm of fanboi (really?!) foam surrounding it is another.

If the latter bothers you, ignore it.

Simple as that.

 

[OrangeTree]

A Spirited response! Oh my...

Oh ... new blood in MAGICal waters ... should I be gentle or my Spirited self?:goodnevil

We all know you only have one mode.... And that's a good thing!

Ah, but to hear some fans (including Michael Crawford) tell it, it's not meaningless. It's the start of what was and what could be again. If we just are all activist fans.

Well, of course. If WDI/TDO/Ops is actually looking at what fans want, why isn't this the first step to restoring things? It's a formula, and one that is profitable for them.

I think the area food and beverage manager is 'net savvy (or may even recall when the item was served) and was simply looking to improve his/her location's numbers. Sometimes, the simplest explanation is the real one ... everything isn't a conspiracy as the counsel from Indy would tell us all!:wave:

It would certainly make sense, but I think the refurbishment of the building, and the subsequent return of Tropical Serenade, that it's obvious that someone knows their history about the facility. WDI? Do things work like that? Makes sense.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

I think that's simplifying things. They HAVE to market something, don't they?
Granted OB isn't on any adverts... yet...

I don't see it that way. They can't even return the damn torches to the roofline ... Adventureland has lost its sense of place like much of MK ... the Adventureland Veranada, which was until its closure in the mid-90s, the second largest QSR in the MK is a fairy meet-greet-and-grope.

The torches are back. Those were added in later.

But I certainly agree that the rest of the MK is rotting.

....and I would hope that this level of attention would be paid to the rest of MK on a grand scale.

Welcome. I hope I wasn't too hard on ya. I do believe new members are a great thing (provided you aren't another incarnation of that bullsfortheloss troll) ... It also helps when they come in and don't immediately attack people who have been here for years.

Oh, not at all.... and I suppose I am happy to be here. I usually... lurk... in these waters just observing the fun? Insanity?, but this issue looked exceptionally aPEALing to discuss...

 

[yeti]

Of course it is. A small detail was added back. Nothing more, nothing less.

At face value, this is a good thing. The whole nebulous realm of fanboi (really?!) foam surrounding it is another.

If the latter bothers you, ignore it.

Simple as that.

At face value? At face value I just see the citrus swirl as a way of making some dough off the retro-initiative consumers. They're one and the same. Simply put, it is in no way different from an orange bird shirt. A little bit of nostalgia creeping back into the world....that you have to purchase.

It isn't what the MK needs. I guess that's what bothers me. It's a sign of people settling for less when they deserve more.

Why build new rides when guests will go gaga over and purchase the hearts and flowers stuff to rekindle their magical memories? It's far more profitable.