Lee
Adventurer
Perhaps not. I hear both ways, and have been told for a fact that other things are currently being developed based entirely on data accumulated via social media.
~An agent of SPIRITED change?~
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Are Oranges a good sign ... or just citrus?
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
~An agent of SPIRITED change?~
And the fodder from which books are written.....:lookaroun
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Disney and many of its park fans have lost faith in themed entertainment as a valid creative medium, there is little room left for anything new, because theme parks are viewed as derivative by nature. They are a silly amusement, a place to not think because you are on vacation, something new would mean it is all being taken too seriously. Yes, there were some things new, but they are viewed as an anomaly. The retro merchandise and everything else has already been established as "Disney". Marvel belongs in the Disney parks not because their creative visions have complimentary atributes, but because outside of the theme parks Marvel is now a wholly owned subsidiary. Film characters can be wedged into wherever because they are from something outside of the theme parks labeled Disney. Where it is odd is the retro and self referencing, because their is a contradictory acknowledgment of the once legitimacy of themed design, prior originality is already known as Disney and thus "Disney" and what people want in a Disney park.
$300,000,000 ≠ $1,000,000,000
Clever Name
Well-Known Member
[youtube]1nry_aV1TI4[/youtube]
In 1969 Anita Bryant became the spokesperson for the Florida Citrus Commission and she was closely associated with the entire Orange Bird campaign. Due to her later political activism concerning her opposition to gay rights, she was shunned by many people. This led to a precipitous decline in her career and popularity. Disney would prefer to forget about the embarrassing incident for fear that resurrection of the Orange Bird will stir up another emotional homophobic debate. :wave:
In 1969 Anita Bryant became the spokesperson for the Florida Citrus Commission and she was closely associated with the entire Orange Bird campaign. Due to her later political activism concerning her opposition to gay rights, she was shunned by many people. This led to a precipitous decline in her career and popularity. Disney would prefer to forget about the embarrassing incident for fear that resurrection of the Orange Bird will stir up another emotional homophobic debate. :wave:
Jimmy Thick
Well-Known Member
Social media aimed at Disney World, or all the Disney parks combined is more than likely less than 10% of the Disney fanbase and it's a fact Disney is wasting resources developing anything related to that data?
No, extremely hard to believe if not complete folly.
I might be wrong but...
Add up all forum members for Disney forums, twitter accounts, blogs and I seriously doubt you have a million people devoted to social media even if you round up. And thats allowing people with multiple accounts across forums, blogs, twitter, etc to count as many times as needed.
Kinda laughable if you really think about it.
" Mr. Iger, social media suggests we are not keeping up with the condition of the parks?
" Oh? And how many people does this represent? "
Around 1% Sir! "
" Lol, What? "
Jimmy Thick-Still waiting for proof for these "facts"...
No, extremely hard to believe if not complete folly.
I might be wrong but...
Add up all forum members for Disney forums, twitter accounts, blogs and I seriously doubt you have a million people devoted to social media even if you round up. And thats allowing people with multiple accounts across forums, blogs, twitter, etc to count as many times as needed.
Kinda laughable if you really think about it.
" Mr. Iger, social media suggests we are not keeping up with the condition of the parks?
" Oh? And how many people does this represent? "
Around 1% Sir! "
" Lol, What? "
Jimmy Thick-Still waiting for proof for these "facts"...
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
Hey Jimbo, maybe you should supply us with proof of your theories. I'm sure we would all welcome the voice of another insider. Especially one like yourself who seems to be connected so high up the food chain.
We will all be waiting patiently.
zooey
Well-Known Member
You nailed it, Steve. That's what I don't get.
It's sorta like Horizons. I miss it, but I rode it the first few weeks it was open ... I watched it being built ... it was an attraction I knew I'd never wait more than 20-30 minutes for on the absolute busiest days of the year.
But when kids who never experienced it go crazy and want to buy logo tees and pins and vinyl dedicated to it, my reaction is why ... sorta like all the talk about things like WRE on up to BK (that one may be unfair for some of the older folks), but I longingly waited for WRE as a child and expected it would eventually come.
I am afraid I'm going to express myself the wrong way (that never happens here, does it?) ... but I sense many younger fans living WDW thru coffeetable books and (now) D23 presentations.
It isn't the same a living it and it's just a bit strange to me. ... And you can't say the same about things like films and music because whether you are speaking of Snow White or the Beatles, those things tend to be timeless.
I think I'm going to shut my yap now (well, and go open it at lunch) but I'm interested in what others have to say.
I just don't know how you can attempt to live in the past without having lived in said past.
That said, I think I was a pharoah in a prevous life!:drevil:
~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~
Younger fanbois probably get all worked up about retro stuff because self-proclaimed old timers like yourself tell them how much better Walt Disney World used to be. So, when it looks like WDW actually is becoming what it used to be by using retro characters like the orange bird or retro refits like the Tiki Room, it makes them believe they're witnessing the parks going back to what they were. Which you can't really blame them for because it's folks like you '74 that more or less tell them to be that way. Now, you're contradicting yourself, or, people misunderstood the message in the first place.
We don't want WDW to go back to what it once was in content (necessarily) but rather in service, maintenance, Walt-esque ideals. It's pretty easy to get that mixed up, and Disney messes with its fans all the time. It takes way to much work to be a "good" Disney fan these days. You have to hate all the best things.
I honestly don't get the hullabaloo over this citrus swirl thing. Would it really have been that much better if they invented a new soft serve treat instead of going back to the small tasty icon of sunshine tree terrace? Not really. And Orange Bird is an adorable character, the Japanese adopted him, and he represents Florida in a nice way, and at least he doesn't have his own cartoon on Disney Channel. I understand the argument that fans won't let Imagineers or management try anything new (which is true, but they haven't been totally successful in creating things that are BETTER than the efforts of the previous generation of Imagineers) but this is a food stand, very inconsequential, and if a food stand is capable of making a guest smile then that's a job well done.
Nicely stated.
Lee
Adventurer
Bingo!
You have hit upon '74's exact point!
Retro merch, while nice, should not be seen as a return to the old ideals, and getting that mixed up is one of its purposes. It blurs the line. It creates the illusion that they want to go back to the old ways, when in reality they want to sell you an OB shirt and a swirl.
Disney has mastered the use of nostalgia as a method of turning attention away from its current issues. Wanna get fanboys fired up? Trot out Dreamfinder. Or issue a retro Horizons shirt. Never mind that the money spent to design that shirt or make a new suit for Dreamfinder could have been spent replacing bulbs at the Flo.
~An agent of SPIRITED change?~
Expo_Seeker40
Well-Known Member
I think the Orange Bird will become a mascot for Disney playing it safe with fanbois and sweatshirt moms. The Orange Bird (OB) was nothing more than a mascot for florida citrus, that's.....it. It's more Disney now than it ever was Florida back then. It's not anyone will see Florida's Natural sponsoring the tiki room again or the OB featured on cartons of orange juice.
I would not be surprised if Disney made a new meet n great OB Character for events like D23.
Selling retro merch or using the old WDW logo doesn't mean WDW is back to the high standards, values, and upkeep it had in the 70s and 80s. A graphic logo or image does not let you go in a time machine and experience the WDW of old while walking through the MK in 2012 full of strollers, EVC's, and the desert hub where people get sunburned in less than 10 minutes while staring at the plastic castle. *ok, so it's fiberglass.....*
What Disney should do is bring back the quality and value it had with it's florida resort for both the fans and the general public AND roll out some retro merchandise, not just use retro merch as a distraction.
~raking up my flyer miles for a spirited occasion~
I would not be surprised if Disney made a new meet n great OB Character for events like D23.
Selling retro merch or using the old WDW logo doesn't mean WDW is back to the high standards, values, and upkeep it had in the 70s and 80s. A graphic logo or image does not let you go in a time machine and experience the WDW of old while walking through the MK in 2012 full of strollers, EVC's, and the desert hub where people get sunburned in less than 10 minutes while staring at the plastic castle. *ok, so it's fiberglass.....*
What Disney should do is bring back the quality and value it had with it's florida resort for both the fans and the general public AND roll out some retro merchandise, not just use retro merch as a distraction.
~raking up my flyer miles for a spirited occasion~
I think Duffy might take offense to OB moving in on his retail action.....
Lee
Adventurer
Easy way to solve that....THUNDERDOME!
Two characters enter, one character leaves...
~An agent of SPIRITED change!~
Tigger1988
Well-Known Member
Yup, can't complain about people enjoying the WDW of today AND complain about people enjoying the WDW of decades past. And I've seen Spirit do both.
zooey
Well-Known Member
I do get that point, and agree with it mostly, as well. However, I don't think retro merch and poor Dreamfinder are part of a diabolical corporate plot to confuse fans. It's the result of Disney actually listening to their fans and the fans always telling them that they want the old stuff. Plain and simple. If people spoke with their wallet, not buying the rehashed merch, then things might be different. You have to admit that retro, bygone era Disney stuff, like the Orange Bird, are popular because they haven't made an effort to do anything significantly better since those things were popular. Epcot is NOT better than it was in the 80s and early 90s. It's just not, so instead of the poor Disney fan creating total cognitive dissonance with that fandom, that fan will force Disney to be "good"--as it used to be--by mopping up as much nostalgia Disney can pour out. I honestly think things could be different, but 1: fans have to demand more NEW things, and more QUALITY things (reject mediocre additions like SoTMK) and 2: Disney has to want to be the leader in new and exciting, groundbreaking projects, which they've shown for the past 15ish years they have no real interest in doing.
So, Disney forces its fans who want to remain fans into clinging to the past. I don't really blame them, because it's mostly fun to be a Disney fan.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
Nostalgia has become the #1 selling point of WDW lately. Nostalgia is nice, it makes you feel warm inside, it's great as a part of a larger whole. Nostalgia is not a sustainable business model though. Using it to distract from the much larger issues facing WDW is a seriously flawed plan. WDW should be looking to cultivate the feeling of being somewhere amazing and dare I say magical. Not the feeling of being somewhere that once upon a time was amazing and magical.
Captain Chaos
Well-Known Member
My biggest issue with it, now that I've had time to reread it and think more, is the oversimplification of the issues with Disney. And the fact that to follow Michael's train of thought, we all have to be more than just fans ... we have to be advocates for positive change.
Well, while I like positive change and advocate it (in my own Spirited way!:animwink
... I think when people are so out of touch with their product and its history and their fanbase etc, that in a capitalist economy they should be kicked out on their arses and replaced with those better capable of running WDW Co.But I absolutely think you are wrong, Tom.
Disney does think that most of its fans are stupid, simple and easily placated and that selling citrus swirls (better than overrated Dole Whips to be sure!) or Orange Bird tees (80% that will wind up at Prop Control and outlets) or trotting out Ron 'I was Dreamfinder for maybe 11 months in ancient days and living in obscurity since until the fan community discovered me' Schneider at a fan event ... or putting out a line of merchandise with all the great stuff from WDW's four decades that no longer exists means they do NOT have to pay attention to the big stuff.
And I'm not talking just building major cutting edge attractions/areas like WWoHP. I'm speaking everything from letting the parks and infrastructure rot to making cutbacks to save money and let quality die a bit more to charging more and providing less.
No one (except publicity Merfie) is talking about RC DVC because the OB is back ... no one cares that WDW's food prices and selections and some of the most popular places just went up again because you can get a mediocre citrus dessert that was sold in the 70s and 80s.
And you are oversimplfying things if you believe that I think this is all about placating a dozen fanbois in the Twitverse. Since you know more about Social Media than I do (you probably do on many levels), you know that's not what it's about ... it's the message spreading.
Let's stop using 'conspiracy' ... I used it in a subject head of a thread I didn't expect to blow up as it did last summer and it isn't a word I'd use again. ... It also tends to try and take legitimacy away from the points I make regarding what TWDC is doing in social media by making it appear a group of evil MMC ear wearing twits are sitting around a table saying 'what is our next move to destroy the fan community/ BWAHH AHHHAHAA!'
It isn't, so let's move on ...
SEO is one of those wonderful newfangled Social Media metrics that I readily admit I don't understand enough to go back and forth with you. But I can guarantee you that the eyes of a NYT reader is more important than a Mommy Blogger from Ohio (who gets invited on free week-long trips with DH and DD11 and DS8 and DS3 to the product) because Disney owns those people.
You don't grow a business by simply targeting the same audience all over again ... the one you own.
McDonald's isn't trying to grow its business by selling Big Macs to 400-pounders because it owns them (and even some of us 175-pounders!) ... It is expanding offerings and trying to expand (successfully I might add) its business with other products and redesigned units ... hell, Apple earned a whole new audience when it created the iPad (those buys didn't all worship at the cult of Jobs, ya know?)
Disney gains little (or nothing at all) from focusing its social media efforts on fan lifestyle sites (they're preaching to the choirs just like all the folks who will be in church tomorrow for Easter or in temples for Passover).
You grow your business with new audiences and guests largely ... and you are going to get far more out of the NYT than a blog.
I have ... and am tired of repeating myself. You and I both know that a blogger who has never been treated special in his/her life when given free trips and gifts and invites to private parties and access to talk to execs, celebs and Imagineers is going to be like a 12-year-old who discovers naughty pics online for the first time.
For me to sit here and just take shots at the Ricky Brigantes Jim Hills, Lou Mongellos, Tom Corless', Jeff Langes, Adrienne-Vincent Phoenixs of the world etc is just a waste of time. I am not here to keep pointing out how the vast majority of online folks who own sites never have a bad thing to say about Disney and, if they do ... like Lutz and Yee ... they never get invited to anything!
Worse, I've had some of these lunatics attempt to come after me (even stalk my family) because they fail to understand that by putting themselves in the public eye that makes them open for criticism just like a REAL writer for say the NYT ... they don't get the fact that celebrity ... even 'online Disney fan community celebrity' comes with the fact people DO get to question them, their motives and the like.
That's more true now than ever. ... Again, I'll pay for a list of Disney's online invites to the Carsland opening and what is being given to each and every blogger/podcaster etc.
Again, I didn't use that word here, so can we leave it out?
But when D23 was formed it wasn't formed because Disney cared about the fans. It was because Bob Iger was furious that there was so much inside info and negative comments about the company and his leadership out there. That the fan community was controlling the message and not Disney's marketing machine. Hell, they wanted to put of business Tales From the Laughing Place (a publication created lovingly by one of their contractors) and replace it with a glossy ad for all that is TWDC ... sadly, they succeeded.
And if you don't want to engage in open communication with the fans then say it. Don't lie. Don't have twits like Blondie and Tommy tweeting inane crap about 'headed to EPCOT for lunch: should I do Lotus Blossum or Sunshine Seasons?' and acting (and that is what it is ... I have worked in PR and with PR pros much of my life) like they're one of you. They are not.
Don't mistake the ineptitude of the Celebration Place Social Media Cabal's work as meaning they aren't looking to control as much as possible. That IS part of their employment brief. They are there to influence as many in the fan community as they can.
The fact that some of them tweet with you or will smile and hand you an Orange Bird pin at a D23 event doesn't make them your friend.
It's PR ... and PR is known as BS ... or spin.
I'm not complaining abut steps in the right direction. I am complaining about people reading waaaay too much into small things and giving Disney all sorts of kudos while the place rots away in general. Get the Yeti fixed. Get the lights on the GF looking like the place isn't rundown. Get the monorails running right. Give us a new parade once a decade. Add an attraction worthy of the Disney name. Don't tell me that retro tees and retro desserts mean anything more than a feeble attempt by 'net savvy middle managers to improve their OWN bottom lines.
Oh, and I have seen some new merchandise in resorts ... BW comes to mind (didn't spend much time in the resorts this trip) ... but when I see it everywhere from All Star Music to Coronado to Saratoga to Poly etc than I'll give credit. Not yet.
Yes, but they're wasting a lot of energy on something insignificant and reading way too much into it.
You know what I'd say about the citrus swirl? One line in an observation thread: ''Nice to see the old citrus swirls back on the menu at STT.'' That's it.
And this is a fundamental difference with DL fans. They took away the only in DL and nowhere else on earth Fantasia ice cream about 7-8 years ago (really ed me off!), but the fan community out there was more concerned with DL rotting and DCA not being good enough and that was where their focus stayed.
And look what they have to show for themselves now ... I'd swap a citrus swirl for a non-ghetto Splash Mountain or a few new parades!
~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~