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Are Oranges a good sign ... or just citrus?
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
WDWFigment
Well-Known Member
I attended the Destination D event at which Dreamfinder appeared. In surveying that audience, I can tell you that it didn't "turn attention away from current issues." Well, unless you mean for the time the event was actually taking place. That's probably true. Many of the people in attendance at that event are the same ones who post here, Tweet, and blog about problems WDW has. If Disney has some master plan to use nostalgia to distract from current issues (something I highly doubt), it's about the worst plan ever and is absolutely not working.
You can "spin" retro merchandise both ways. You and 74 can make your assertions that it's being made to distract from the bigger problems. I could just as easily assert that it's problematic for Disney, as this merchandise puts younger fans "on notice" of what used to exist: "Hey, who is this bearded man and what's 'EPCOT Center'... maybe I should look this up online... WOW, this is much more awesome than what we have now. Maybe Disney really is slipping!"
Chances are, though, neither extreme is right. Chances are Disney Design Group and those who trend-spot have realized retro (in society as a whole, not just WDW) is selling like hotcakes. Chances are also that Disney Design Group has some passionate Disney fans who remember some classic attractions. Heck, maybe some folks in DDG have even seen the popularity of some fan-designs and have commissioned those fans to create some designs.
Nah, of course all of that isn't possible. It's actually a huge plot to cheapen WDW even further and deny the Grand Floridian new light bulbs. The masterminds in social media are at it again!!!
I have yet to see a single commercial for Walt Disney World (or "Disney Parks") focusing on nostalgia. Nostalgia is hardly the "#1 selling point." Older fans who are nostalgic about the parks are hardly Disney's target demographic. Nostalgia might be utilized to market D23 events and pin-trading events, but these target a very small subset of all guests.
Or, when it comes to nostalgia, Disney just wants to rub it in a fanbase's collective face:
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...706/1000211/&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13338209511431
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...706/1000211/&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13338209511431
zooey
Well-Known Member
In reply to 74s long post:
Basically you're telling everyone to stop enjoying the Disney product. Nevermind what it used to be and all that. You're telling them to stop enjoying it at all. I have been to a few D23 events, and guess what, I had a great time. I'm not going to warp my view of those events so I don't feel like I was taken advantage of by a corporation. I'm not going to undermine the events highlights as placation. When is the experience a legitimate experience and when is it not? We're almost getting into metaphysics here. If Disney puts out a product, and I enjoy that product, I'm not going to perform self-flagellation for enjoying that product. The real issue is when Disney puts out a bad product and people don't call them on it.
D23 events are not bad. They're alot of fun and well done.
Retro merch is typically well-designed and of a passable to high quality.
Citrus Swirl is a tasty treat.
...and in the same breath I will tell you that WDW needs a massive maintenance overhaul.
Are we really not allowed to like ANYTHING about WDW or the Disney product until they fix the larger issues?
At some point, you just have to ask why you're even engaging with the company and its products. If I'm not allowed or shouldn't like anything about Disney at all, then I might as well move on and stop caring about it completely. The only thing that can keep you coming back is the politics of it all as a company insider, or nostalgia.
I honestly don't think you're getting anywhere by not giving Disney their small victories (or twisting inconsequential updates into brand-killing viruses).
Basically you're telling everyone to stop enjoying the Disney product. Nevermind what it used to be and all that. You're telling them to stop enjoying it at all. I have been to a few D23 events, and guess what, I had a great time. I'm not going to warp my view of those events so I don't feel like I was taken advantage of by a corporation. I'm not going to undermine the events highlights as placation. When is the experience a legitimate experience and when is it not? We're almost getting into metaphysics here. If Disney puts out a product, and I enjoy that product, I'm not going to perform self-flagellation for enjoying that product. The real issue is when Disney puts out a bad product and people don't call them on it.
D23 events are not bad. They're alot of fun and well done.
Retro merch is typically well-designed and of a passable to high quality.
Citrus Swirl is a tasty treat.
...and in the same breath I will tell you that WDW needs a massive maintenance overhaul.
Are we really not allowed to like ANYTHING about WDW or the Disney product until they fix the larger issues?
At some point, you just have to ask why you're even engaging with the company and its products. If I'm not allowed or shouldn't like anything about Disney at all, then I might as well move on and stop caring about it completely. The only thing that can keep you coming back is the politics of it all as a company insider, or nostalgia.
I honestly don't think you're getting anywhere by not giving Disney their small victories (or twisting inconsequential updates into brand-killing viruses).
Lee
Adventurer
And of course they never asked themselves, "Why are people buying all this old-school EPCOT stuff?"
Hint: It's not because they just like the colors or graphics.
Lee
Adventurer
No, you are misunderstanding.
Disney does do some stuff very well, the retro merch is nice, and I enjoy some of their events. We are all alike in that regard.
The issue is in not letting them totally control the message. Not letting them cloud the issues or keep fans so drunk on citrus swirls that they lose sight of the bigger picture.
On October 1st, I'll probably buy an Epcot 30th shirt. And then go looking for someone in a suit that I can ask some tough questions.
We are now reaching the point where some concepts are difficult to convey via a message board. Points get overlooked and nuance is missed.
Let's all get together and discuss this in person.:lol:
~An agent of SPIRITED change!~
I never said there was anything wrong with it. I've noticed a trend over the last year or so to give some huge significance to the Orange Bird (who wasn't that significant when he was significant) and now an old dessert returns.
If people like them, great. I think the exuberance is a bit over the top when the resort is falling apart.
Look, I enjoyed the new menu at the Tomorrowland Terrace (I may have actually mentioned it before my trip observation thread was taken over by a non Norwegian troll!
), but I simply mentioned it in passing and didn't decide it was a sign that Disney cares and that things are getting better.The fact is things are getting better all over WDW on a micro level ... I could probably list 5-10 just off the top of my head ... BUT since the whole resort continues to tread water or head downward on the macro level, I find it hard to get excited about the smaller things.
And I have to ask you an honest question since you do blog and are part of (at least) one Disney site ... but are you looking to be part of the Disney Social Media machine? Seriously, would you in a heartbeat take a paycut and relocate to Orlando to be ... say the WDW photo expert dude for The Disney Parks Blog?
~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~
Exactly right. A free focus group that (not to make anyone paranoid...) is monitored every single day. The reaction to the whole Orange Bird/Citrus Swirl has been digested, quantified and processed by the good folks
Sadly, I wish I could say they're doing it out of kindness or good will foe the fans...but also sadly, I know better.
I'm reminded of an email I got....wow, must be nearly four years ago by now. In it, a helpful CM informed me about two annoying facts. One was that the Space Mountain project had been cut down from a true reimagining to just a fairly basic refurb. The other was that the meeting then turned to an upcoming line of retro merchandise, and how by properly displaying/selling those items they could hope to blunt a good portion of the disappointment with the SM situation.
Really. And I thought it was funny at the time. I don't anymore.
The thought process around that table was that fans could be distracted by retro merchandise.
So don't think that this doesn't happen, 'cause it does.
As '74 said, even imagineers know that fans are their own worst enemies, often acting against their own best interest. Being a good customer doesn't mean accepting blindly whatever you're sold. It means looking at your purchase with a critical eye, making sure you are getting what you want and what youre paying for.
Make them earn it.
~An agent of SPIRITED change.
Bolded part for emphasis.
It seems to work fine in Disney outposts from Anaheim to Asia ... why do WDW fans grade the place on a curve and accept less?
~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~
How did they come about?
And what changes are we speaking of?
The citrus swirl's return? OB tees?
~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~
Nemo14
Well-Known Member
I didn't get that from his post at all. He never said to stop enjoying the Disney product, but just to take it for what it is - it's not a victory, just an attempt to satisfy (and capitalize on) an apparent need for nostalgia. Will this fix the Yeti, or the myriad of other details that so blatantly need attention? Probably not, but it's a way to make us think that better days are on the "Horizon".
Yep. Dear minion of Disney hate (hey, wanna go egg the Easter Bunny's place tomorrow??!:drevil
... Disney has always been about nostalgia, but it was nostalgia for a different time and place (even ones that never existed).But now, Disney marketing (and PR and Social Media) have turned the faucet on high on Disney nostalgia ... manufactured ... being all about the BRAND and its history.
I don't want a Horizons tee anymore than I want the attraction back.
I want Disney's best efforts at producing the best quality product.
And PR ... ... it don't impress me much.
~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~
Mansion Butler
Active Member
Interest in park history and getting to see elements of it return.
Not speculation, speaking from experience.
Mansion Butler
Active Member
It's not even necessarily, just, or at all that.
I would love to have an Adventure Thru Innerspace shirt. I never road it, but I'm obsessed with Disney Parks history, and enjoy reflecting that to a degree in the things I decorate myself and my home with. If it's something I wish I'd been able to experience because it looks awesome and was designed by Claude Coates, all the better.
And I know I'm not alone in this. I've experienced most of what was at Disney World, since it wasn't even half way through its current life span when I started going there, but I have a ton of friends who had never been until recent times who embrace extinct attractions and draws because it is there way of embracing the history of a place they love.
I wish I was better at turning my feelings in to words on this subject.
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
Meh, back in the good old days of the 70s and 80s the whole of academia and student organisations were extreme left. All of them had activist members who would insist one should not have fun until after the revolution. Any compromise was betrayal, would only make people lose focus of the final goal, and was just a means of the capitalist system to keep people just happy enough to not start a revolution.
It was too serious and humorless back then and it is now.
I'm going to treat myself a great citrus swirl next rip, and then I'm going to climb the lovingly redone Treehouse.
I do agree a retro snack and merchandise shirt are no substitute for a still inferior product.
The Orange Bird is silly. He was an outside advertising mascot. Like having Ronald McDonald hover around a fries stand. He didn't belong in Disney back then and he doesn't belong there now.
What does, however, belong in Disney is a refurb where they restore the torches. The Terrace looks daft now - a roofline of monkey statues with their hands in the air to hold up...nothing. What rubbish.
Water and fire - these are the two elements associated with the exotic. Both were omnipresent in AL once. Both are missing all over Adventureland. Bring them back.
And that's not even the real issue in AL. The main problem is that spinner abomination. Plastic, desert, cartoons in a natural, tropical, realistic environment. Large, industrial ride mechanism in a place where everything is powered by wind and water. Might as well plonk Star Trek Space Mountain in Frontierland and claim it fits the theme because Star Trek is about people in 'Man's Final Frontier'.
It was too serious and humorless back then and it is now.
I'm going to treat myself a great citrus swirl next rip, and then I'm going to climb the lovingly redone Treehouse.
I do agree a retro snack and merchandise shirt are no substitute for a still inferior product.
The Orange Bird is silly. He was an outside advertising mascot. Like having Ronald McDonald hover around a fries stand. He didn't belong in Disney back then and he doesn't belong there now.
What does, however, belong in Disney is a refurb where they restore the torches. The Terrace looks daft now - a roofline of monkey statues with their hands in the air to hold up...nothing. What rubbish.
Water and fire - these are the two elements associated with the exotic. Both were omnipresent in AL once. Both are missing all over Adventureland. Bring them back.
And that's not even the real issue in AL. The main problem is that spinner abomination. Plastic, desert, cartoons in a natural, tropical, realistic environment. Large, industrial ride mechanism in a place where everything is powered by wind and water. Might as well plonk Star Trek Space Mountain in Frontierland and claim it fits the theme because Star Trek is about people in 'Man's Final Frontier'.
misterID
Well-Known Member
I don't think Spirit is saying not to enjoy these things, just don't be distracted by "the pretty lights."
I love the citrus swirl. I loved Dreamfinder's one off return. I HATE TDO. I hate the way they've run/ruined the parks. I hate that extensive refurbs turn into spit and shine clean ups. I hate that EPCOT is no longer the park I love. That they've kept WS an outdoor mall. FW has NO cohesive theme anymore. They've destroyed the most popular attraction in the park in Imagination, and turned an imaginative, original, whimsical, endearing and immersive 11 minute experience into a four minute fart joke with a spoiled, bratty little dragon, who was once EPCOT's most beloved and cherished character. I can't blame them for trying to do something better than HORIZONS (shut up, spirit) but EPCOT's "long needed thrill ride" was a dud. There's an empty pavilion sitting there, like no ones supposed to notice it. They could have easily kept (a refurbed) HORIZONS and added a thrill ride. And the staple of the park, SSE, that's supposed to represent everything EPCOT is supposed to mean, has been dumbed down to appeal to a six-year-old. WHAT ABOUT THE DESCENT, TDO? The park's most popular attraction, is an exact copy of a DL ride to the point that it literally ends at Disneyland. That's considered real expansion? That says everything.
AK and DHS are half day parks. Sorry, they are. You should't have to do every little thing in them, whether you like it or not, to make them full day parks ... And guess what? They still aren't full day parks. But they're charging REAL FULL DAY prices for admission. Sorry, ambiance is NOT an attraction. It comes with the package at a Disney park... Or so it used to be.
Not a single solitary piece of merch or a dessert treat will ever get me to ingnore these things, or forgive them. I'm not going to give TDO props for stuff THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO and ignore the fact that THEY ARE IGNORING THE REAL PROBLEMS of these parks.
The problem is this: TDO doesn't care about in-state resident APers, who go several times a year. They don't. End of story. TDA does and caters to their guests. All their guests. Very much. TDO made a decision not to a long time ago, when FL resident APers were actually a very big and loyal group. They care about the tourists, people from out of state who use WDW as their "home park," who go once every year or two... maybe even less. People who geek out at anything Disney World related, especailly how it used to be. The ones who save up to spend. Not the people who are there all the time and call them out on their stale product.
The ONLY thing that is going to produce real change is when these out of staters start going to Disneyland... And DL becomes the #1 tourist destination in the world. The excuse for mediocrity will officially be over then.
If TDO really cared about tradition, or nostalgia, like they claim, especially with all the merch they're pimping out to people who actually care about that stuff, even the history buffs, they would stop stepping on the tradition and start acting like it matters.
It's exactly why I'm going to start taking my trips to DL... Like a lot of people in this forum have, who love WDW. Just like WDWFigment has, too.
*rant over*
I love the citrus swirl. I loved Dreamfinder's one off return. I HATE TDO. I hate the way they've run/ruined the parks. I hate that extensive refurbs turn into spit and shine clean ups. I hate that EPCOT is no longer the park I love. That they've kept WS an outdoor mall. FW has NO cohesive theme anymore. They've destroyed the most popular attraction in the park in Imagination, and turned an imaginative, original, whimsical, endearing and immersive 11 minute experience into a four minute fart joke with a spoiled, bratty little dragon, who was once EPCOT's most beloved and cherished character. I can't blame them for trying to do something better than HORIZONS (shut up, spirit) but EPCOT's "long needed thrill ride" was a dud. There's an empty pavilion sitting there, like no ones supposed to notice it. They could have easily kept (a refurbed) HORIZONS and added a thrill ride. And the staple of the park, SSE, that's supposed to represent everything EPCOT is supposed to mean, has been dumbed down to appeal to a six-year-old. WHAT ABOUT THE DESCENT, TDO? The park's most popular attraction, is an exact copy of a DL ride to the point that it literally ends at Disneyland. That's considered real expansion? That says everything.
AK and DHS are half day parks. Sorry, they are. You should't have to do every little thing in them, whether you like it or not, to make them full day parks ... And guess what? They still aren't full day parks. But they're charging REAL FULL DAY prices for admission. Sorry, ambiance is NOT an attraction. It comes with the package at a Disney park... Or so it used to be.
Not a single solitary piece of merch or a dessert treat will ever get me to ingnore these things, or forgive them. I'm not going to give TDO props for stuff THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO and ignore the fact that THEY ARE IGNORING THE REAL PROBLEMS of these parks.
The problem is this: TDO doesn't care about in-state resident APers, who go several times a year. They don't. End of story. TDA does and caters to their guests. All their guests. Very much. TDO made a decision not to a long time ago, when FL resident APers were actually a very big and loyal group. They care about the tourists, people from out of state who use WDW as their "home park," who go once every year or two... maybe even less. People who geek out at anything Disney World related, especailly how it used to be. The ones who save up to spend. Not the people who are there all the time and call them out on their stale product.
The ONLY thing that is going to produce real change is when these out of staters start going to Disneyland... And DL becomes the #1 tourist destination in the world. The excuse for mediocrity will officially be over then.
If TDO really cared about tradition, or nostalgia, like they claim, especially with all the merch they're pimping out to people who actually care about that stuff, even the history buffs, they would stop stepping on the tradition and start acting like it matters.
It's exactly why I'm going to start taking my trips to DL... Like a lot of people in this forum have, who love WDW. Just like WDWFigment has, too.
*rant over*
disney fan 13
Well-Known Member
quoted for same opinion
MissMorrow
Active Member
If I may offer my two cents. And I'm sort of echoing others here.
I’d like to think these small victories are a sign of things turning around, but I just can’t. It’s a surefire way to wind up disappointed.
The company doesn’t care about the consumers, the fans, the parks, or their media content so long as it’s making $$$. Magical, cutting edge, unique is no longer a part of the business model because it doesn’t need to be for them to make a profit. Why do your best when you can get away with just okay? This is the mind set and unfortunately the success of the citrus swirl isn’t going to change that.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the only way things really change, IMO, is if there is a serious profit loss resulting in a management restructuring miracle or the company collapses from within. I’d love for that management restructuring miracle to take place sooner rather than later, but I won’t hold my breath.
One the flip side, I’m not saying one should boycott these things, that doesn’t help either. By all means, enjoy the little things that they do give us. I’m certainly going to enjoy the citrus swirl and retro merch, but I’m not doing so thinking management is really listening.
I’d like to think these small victories are a sign of things turning around, but I just can’t. It’s a surefire way to wind up disappointed.
The company doesn’t care about the consumers, the fans, the parks, or their media content so long as it’s making $$$. Magical, cutting edge, unique is no longer a part of the business model because it doesn’t need to be for them to make a profit. Why do your best when you can get away with just okay? This is the mind set and unfortunately the success of the citrus swirl isn’t going to change that.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the only way things really change, IMO, is if there is a serious profit loss resulting in a management restructuring miracle or the company collapses from within. I’d love for that management restructuring miracle to take place sooner rather than later, but I won’t hold my breath.
One the flip side, I’m not saying one should boycott these things, that doesn’t help either. By all means, enjoy the little things that they do give us. I’m certainly going to enjoy the citrus swirl and retro merch, but I’m not doing so thinking management is really listening.
OrangeTree
Member
To me, this whole "return" of the Orange Bird honestly isn't a big deal.
In the long run, this is sadly meaningless.
But.... And there's always a but...
I think this does show some uptake on Disney's part ON SOME LEVEL that they do know that fans appreciate history.
Are they using this for profit? Of course. But better for them to make profit over something historical than just something stupid, as they've done in years past.
Would you rather have this centering around Duffy? Stitch? Princesses? Pirates?
I disagree adamantly that the OB is meaningless and just a part of a old partnership with Disney. He's something from Florida. He's something attached to the unique texture and history that Disney has in Florida. He's ours. Not Disneyland's. Not Japan's, even though they have adopted him.
As a obscure Floridian icon, it's simply nice to see Disney recognizing their history, if just for profit. He's a Floridian thing. As a Floridian who has lived in this state all of his life, it's a good thing when something campy or YES, NOSTALGIC, is given it's dues.
Further, the OB is indicative that someone, somewhere knows what Disney needs to be unique again.
It's a small thing, but it helps. It helps a ton. It makes Adventureland regain a bit of it's lost flavor that we all love and miss.
Small thing? Yes. Larger implications and meaning? Maybe. A great deal of negativity made over something that should be positive? Absolutely.
Anyway... first post. It's about time I stopped reading the Spirit (and the Lee and the Steve and the WDWFigment) and started talking to them too....
In the long run, this is sadly meaningless.
But.... And there's always a but...
I think this does show some uptake on Disney's part ON SOME LEVEL that they do know that fans appreciate history.
Are they using this for profit? Of course. But better for them to make profit over something historical than just something stupid, as they've done in years past.
Would you rather have this centering around Duffy? Stitch? Princesses? Pirates?
I disagree adamantly that the OB is meaningless and just a part of a old partnership with Disney. He's something from Florida. He's something attached to the unique texture and history that Disney has in Florida. He's ours. Not Disneyland's. Not Japan's, even though they have adopted him.
As a obscure Floridian icon, it's simply nice to see Disney recognizing their history, if just for profit. He's a Floridian thing. As a Floridian who has lived in this state all of his life, it's a good thing when something campy or YES, NOSTALGIC, is given it's dues.
Further, the OB is indicative that someone, somewhere knows what Disney needs to be unique again.
It's a small thing, but it helps. It helps a ton. It makes Adventureland regain a bit of it's lost flavor that we all love and miss.
Small thing? Yes. Larger implications and meaning? Maybe. A great deal of negativity made over something that should be positive? Absolutely.
Anyway... first post. It's about time I stopped reading the Spirit (and the Lee and the Steve and the WDWFigment) and started talking to them too....