Appalling state of the monorail cabins

[englanddg]

Classic London Double-Decker's have Magic, Classic Flxible busses have magic and quality, The cheap-a-- rental car shuttle busses used by Disney do NOT have magic.

Um...no.

Magic is not a function of form alone, but presentation.

Disney transit doesn't need to be themed as anything more than it is to be "magical"...what is "magical" is not having to guess ride times on the bus to get somewhere (did that, will never stay at POFQ again because of it), or waiting nearly an hour for a ride to your home resort (done that, also POFQ)...

No one needs "wishes" on a bus. The bus is to get you home. There's a reason it's not called the "magical express"...it's not magical. It's transit.

And, frankly, waiting in line for a monorail isn't "magical" either, nor is your cramped trip on it.

 

[Gabe1]

Classic London Double-Decker's have Magic, Classic Flxible busses have magic and quality, The cheap-a-- rental car shuttle busses used by Disney do NOT have magic.

Now Tokyo's buses and monorails have magic. If you're going to lower the magic to a glut of buses the least they can be is magical.

On a trip last year even my DME (know contracted but still) was a cruise motor coach. So arriving at dawn at MCO and heading to see my DS in WDW for the first time in a while, I got to hear all about my cruise. So not magical after being at the airport at 5am. It is those little things Disney did but they don't adhere to anymore. Rarely in yesteryear did they break the magic.

 

[ford91exploder]

Um...no.

Magic is not a function of form alone, but presentation.

Disney transit doesn't need to be themed as anything more than it is to be "magical"...what is "magical" is not having to guess ride times on the bus to get somewhere (did that, will never stay at POFQ again because of it), or waiting nearly an hour for a ride to your home resort (done that, also POFQ)...

No one needs "wishes" on a bus. The bus is to get you home. There's a reason it's not called the "magical express"...it's not magical. It's transit.



And, frankly, waiting in line for a monorail isn't "magical" either, nor is your cramped trip on it.

The busses I mentioned are great examples of industrial design, Functional yet attractive people photograph them just as interesting objects. Disney's buses are utilitarian boxes which are utterly forgettible with the exceptions of the ones made in Roswell NM which have a slightly otherworldly look to them and at night the the headlights look like eyes of a giant prehistoric creature.

I used to enjoy riding the Monorails as an attraction in and of itself and I do have my 'Monorail Pilots' license from both WDW and DL back in the days when you could still ride with the operator.

 

[Bairstow]

Busses are CHEAP and when they are clapped out they can still be SOLD to some sucker who thinks Disney maintained them well. A monorail - well you have to pay someone to take the old ones away.

What kind of transport do you think TODAY's Disney prefers....

Probably what we see now- an assortment of systems that is both flexible and attractive to guests.

Does anyone have any estimates as to how many buses it would take to do the work of the resort and MK parking lot monorails?

 

[englanddg]

The busses I mentioned are great examples of industrial design, Functional yet attractive people photograph them just as interesting objects. Disney's buses are utilitarian boxes which are utterly forgettible with the exceptions of the ones made in Roswell NM which have a slightly otherworldly look to them and at night the the headlights look like eyes of a giant prehistoric creature.

I used to enjoy riding the Monorails as an attraction in and of itself and I do have my 'Monorail Pilots' license from both WDW and DL back in the days when you could still ride with the operator.

I have one of those to (from WDW)...

The Monorails are still magic, but not when you are riding them in peak times.

My point is, Disney is a mid sized city...they have transportation concerns. I have my issues with Disney Transit, but in no way do I expect it to be part of the show. Ever.

Just get me from point A to point B as fast as you can. Give me tools so I know if I'll have to wait 2 minutes or 30 minutes for the bus to the park I want.

Etc...

I don't expect the bus ride to be "magical", I expect the driver to be professional. And if they want to toss in some fun, good for them, but it's no skin off my teeth if they don't.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Magic is not a function of form alone, but presentation.

Disney transit doesn't need to be themed as anything more than it is to be "magical"...what is "magical" is not having to guess ride times on the bus to get somewhere (did that, will never stay at POFQ again because of it), or waiting nearly an hour for a ride to your home resort (done that, also POFQ)...

This. Riding the bus at Walt Disney World would be magical if they surpassed existing notions of bus transportation. Aesthetic can definitely help, but is not enough to overcome real shortcomings in service.

Now Tokyo's buses and monorails have magic. If you're going to lower the magic to a glut of buses the least they can be is magical.

Mickey silhouettes don't make magic.

 

[ford91exploder]

This. Riding the bus at Walt Disney World would be magical if they surpassed existing notions of bus transportation. Aesthetic can definitely help, but is not enough to overcome real shortcomings in service.


Mickey silhouettes don't make magic.

^^^^THIS INDEED

 

[StageFrenzy]

Busses are CHEAP and when they are clapped out they can still be SOLD to some sucker who thinks Disney maintained them well. A monorail - well you have to pay someone to take the old ones away.

What kind of transport do you think TODAY's Disney prefers....

I don't know, I have a feeling that the monorails could be sold to some suckers IN PIECES and they know the monorails aren't maintained. Someone was willing to pay 95k for 1/4 of a monorail.

 

[Clever Name]

DL and WDW have monorails because of Walt. He loved trains and he honestly thought that a modern train such as the monorail could solve the transportation problems of cities in the USA. The monorails at WDW and DL are mere toys and were built more as attractions than real transportation systems. I have no doubt that had Walt lived longer, he would have used his superior salesmanship skills to persuade a large number of major corporations to invest in and build E.P.C.O.T. along with a full blown monorail and people mover system. However, when Walt died those dreams died with him.

We all know the many problems with the monorail system. It costs too much to build and maintain. It's inefficient and inflexible. When it breaks down the entire rail goes out of service. The one real advantage of the monorail is that during "rush hour", one train can carry 360 people. During peak visitation periods the monorail does have the ability to handle a lot of passengers and that's because it has six cars attached together as a train. Modern technology allows buses to do the same thing.

Using automated bus rapid transit systems, buses can perform better than trains. Buses can perform precision docking at bus stops so that they are less than an inch from the curb to allow easy ingress and egress by all passengers (including wheelchairs and ECV's). Using WiFi communication the buses can travel from place to place as a "virtual train" with the buses being coupled together electronically. You can have any number of buses linked together (i.e. as few as two or as many as ten, twenty, thirty, etc.). The buses can leave one virtual train and link up with another as needed.

Dedicated lanes would be set aside for the exclusive use of the automated bus system. Any size of bus can be used in the system from small six passenger buses to large 100 passenger buses and they can all be used together in the same virtual trains. It's the future of WDW transportation.*




*No footers are required.

 

[ABQ]

Buses can perform precision docking at bus stops so that they are less than an inch from the curb to allow easy ingress and egress by all passengers (including wheelchairs and ECV's).

This part raises a point I've wanted to bring up, though it may have been already. Why, in all the years with all the scooters and strollers, has Disney not made the monorail platform level will the monorail floors? How they still have to have a CM haul the diamond plate or whatever ramp up to the door each time a wheelchair, or EVC has to load or offload is crazy?
If/when buses can be so precision in their stops, can we get a straight on roll in for wheelchairs in the future? The fact that it takes so long to load in the wheeled conveyance at each stop is what is most off-putting to me for the bus system.

 

[CDavid]

Why, in all the years with all the scooters and strollers, has Disney not made the monorail platform level will the monorail floors? How they still have to have a CM haul the diamond plate or whatever ramp up to the door each time a wheelchair, or EVC has to load or offload is crazy?

It's not as easy as it sounds, even when you design for level boarding. If a cars suspension is off just a bit and/or the track structure or boarding platform has settled even slightly it will produce a very small gap. It may be just an inch, but its enough to potentially catch a wheel or trip someone so, for safety, you end up needing a bridge plate anyway. I agree though, the monorail platforms should be designed to be as level as possible with the car floors. Potentially, you could design a short "gap filler" ramp which extends automatically as the doors open, in any possible future design.

It's inefficient and inflexible. When it breaks down the entire rail goes out of service.

That's only because, in your own words, the existing WDW monorail system is a "mere toy" and built as an attraction more than a fully implemented transportation system. A proper system would have enough redundancy and capacity to remain fluid even with the occasional breakdown. Part of the current problems are indeed rooted in the way Disney operates its monorails, something like a train around the Christmas tree than a full-scale rail system (that's not a criticism. If you want a better transportation system, as opposed to a better attraction, you may need to do things differently). A breakdown need not take an entire beam out of service even now, though.

A monorails capacity means it will always be more efficient than a bus; Most trains are arguably more flexible than buses because you can better match capacity to demand. The "automated bus rapid transit" you're dreaming of sounds exactly like an attempt to make buses more like trains. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[ABQ]

It's not as easy as it sounds, even when you design for level boarding. If a cars suspension is off just a bit and/or the track structure or boarding platform has settled even slightly it will produce a very small gap. It may be just an inch, but its enough to potentially catch a wheel or trip someone so, for safety, you end up needing a bridge plate anyway. I agree though, the monorail platforms should be designed to be as level as possible with the car floors. Potentially, you could design a short "gap filler" ramp which extends automatically as the doors open, in any possible future design.

Thinking from memory, the doors on the monorail may be the problem, I think they actually extend below the platform which would prevent a super close, nearly touching, joint between the floor inside the monorail and the platform. So something like this, but WAAAAY faster and requiring less manual attention need be done, I suppose.

 

[eddy21]

Yes I believe the doors drop down a little when opening.

 

[flynnibus]

Most trains are arguably more flexible than buses because you can better match capacity to demand

Let's see.. which is faster, cheaper, safer, and more flexible to change capacity on the fly?

1. Adding more carriages to a train in service...
2. Adding more trains to an existing line in service and sharing the line capacity with each other...
3. Or starting up a bus, and leaving the parking lot to join an existing route...

I know I'm not picking #1 or #2 as easier to match capacity to demand. On a heavy core route? Certainly a large heavy carrier is more EFFICIENT than lots of small carriers that will interact with each other and slow each other down. But more flexible? Certainly not by a measure of time or simplicity...

 

[CDavid]

Let's see.. which is faster, cheaper, safer, and more flexible to change capacity on the fly?

1. Adding more carriages to a train in service...
2. Adding more trains to an existing line in service and sharing the line capacity with each other...
3. Or starting up a bus, and leaving the parking lot to join an existing route...

I know I'm not picking #1 or #2 as easier to match capacity to demand. On a heavy core route? Certainly a large heavy carrier is more EFFICIENT than lots of small carriers that will interact with each other and slow each other down. But more flexible? Certainly not by a measure of time or simplicity...

Any mode of transportation can add vehicles to a route, from trains to buses to logs on Splash Mountain, but (generally) only trains can add or subtract capacity of each "vehicle" (equipment set) to meet demand. A bus, for instance, may have 50 seats at low-capacity times when there are only half a dozen passengers; It still has only fifty seats at park closing when there is a line of 300 persons waiting to board. A train, on the other hand, can potentially carry two coaches in the middle of the day with light passenger loads, but maybe ten cars during the evening crunch.

Most of the time switching out cars is more trouble than its worth, though, easier to just run around with them all day. That said, option 1 can generally be accomplished with existing personnel and available equipment. Options 2 and 3 involve calling in more employees and preparing extra equipment (buses or locomotives) for service, and both cost money, particularly if you are going to keep them on standby in the off chance they might be needed (to start up that bus). However, if you are adding more vehicles (equipment sets) to a route, getting the bus out is not necessarily any faster or easier than a train pulling out of a yard and onto the line.

 

[flynnibus]

Any mode of transportation can add vehicles to a route, from trains to buses to logs on Splash Mountain, but (generally) only trains can add or subtract capacity of each "vehicle" (equipment set) to meet demand

But some modes of transportation are far more restrictive on being able to add.. and how much you can add. Because of the block system and safety margins... your vehicles per system are going to be far smaller for trains vs open road vehicles. The train network isn't going to be overbuilt... where as the road network because of it's multi-uses is easier to build up and out.

Most of the time switching out cars is more trouble than its worth, though, easier to just run around with them all day. That said, option 1 can generally be accomplished with existing personnel and available equipment. Options 2 and 3 involve calling in more employees and preparing extra equipment (buses or locomotives) for service, and both cost money, particularly if you are going to keep them on standby in the off chance they might be needed (to start up that bus)

I can afford hundreds of those overrun bus drivers tho vs the cost of bringing on a single train. Plus, those buses can be repurposed when NOT need. I can apply the capacity where ever it is needed within reason.

However, if you are adding more vehicles (equipment sets) to a route, getting the bus out is not necessarily any faster or easier than a train pulling out of a yard and onto the line.

A bus can be added in the time it takes for the guy to walk across the parking lot and pull out. You're going to launch a train into service... with the same minimal prep? hardly...

 

[lazyboy97o]

This part raises a point I've wanted to bring up, though it may have been already. Why, in all the years with all the scooters and strollers, has Disney not made the monorail platform level will the monorail floors? How they still have to have a CM haul the diamond plate or whatever ramp up to the door each time a wheelchair, or EVC has to load or offload is crazy?
If/when buses can be so precision in their stops, can we get a straight on roll in for wheelchairs in the future? The fact that it takes so long to load in the wheeled conveyance at each stop is what is most off-putting to me for the bus system.

The Mark IVs were sitting room only and predated many accessibility laws and guidelines. This is important to consider because the beams and station platforms were designed for these non-accessible vehicles. Yes, the Mark VI doors drop down as part of their automated operation, but that could be modified. The bigger issue is the top of beam to top of floor height. The trains are probably about as low as they can sit. In order to be level that means the stations would have to be rebuilt. Even if it is just an inch or two in difference, you can't just add onto what exists. Stairs need to be uniform in rise and run so you can't just add a short stair or make one a little bigger. It might be possible to fudge with a small ramp, but that requires more square footage. It also would not really be possible to lift both the station floors and the trains to a more uniform height where a single stair could be added because there is so little clearance above the trains.

Top of beam to top of floor height is also why I do not see the allure of new trains. The INNOVIA 200s (based on the Mark VI and previously named the M-VI) have level boarding but likely sit just as high off the beam. The INNOVIA 300s also feature level boarding and the ability to travel between cars. That latter feature means the drive wheels are smaller and located under the floor instead of two large ones at either end. This significantly increases how far up the floor is above the beam as well as the total height of the trains.

 

[Clever Name]

The "automated bus rapid transit" you're dreaming of sounds exactly like an attempt to make buses more like trains. Why reinvent the wheel?

It's not a dream: http://www.path.berkeley.edu/PATH/Research/Featured/102803/san-diego.html

 

[ExtinctJenn]

I'm assuming by now everyone saw this: http://www.wdwmagic.com/transportat...-peak-times-for-maintenance-in-early-2014.htm

Maybe they are well aware of the sad state and are getting ready to fix it!

 

[s8film40]

The Mark IVs were sitting room only and predated many accessibility laws and guidelines. This is important to consider because the beams and station platforms were designed for these non-accessible vehicles. Yes, the Mark VI doors drop down as part of their automated operation, but that could be modified. The bigger issue is the top of beam to top of floor height. The trains are probably about as low as they can sit. In order to be level that means the stations would have to be rebuilt. Even if it is just an inch or two in difference, you can't just add onto what exists. Stairs need to be uniform in rise and run so you can't just add a short stair or make one a little bigger. It might be possible to fudge with a small ramp, but that requires more square footage. It also would not really be possible to lift both the station floors and the trains to a more uniform height where a single stair could be added because there is so little clearance above the trains.

Top of beam to top of floor height is also why I do not see the allure of new trains. The INNOVIA 200s (based on the Mark VI and previously named the M-VI) have level boarding but likely sit just as high off the beam. The INNOVIA 300s also feature level boarding and the ability to travel between cars. That latter feature means the drive wheels are smaller and located under the floor instead of two large ones at either end. This significantly increases how far up the floor is above the beam as well as the total height of the trains.

All of the monorail platforms were actually raised when the Mark VI's arrived. You will notice this most at the resorts. Contemporary and Polynesian both have ramps before you get to the loading area, Grand Floridian the whole platform is a gradual ramp This also the case at Epcot. TTC and Magic Kingdom were both raised and the ramp extended.