Anyone else disappointed...that they expand FANTASYLAND?

[lebeau]

Plain and simple.

Magic Kingdom DOES need a new E-ticket. It's been a very long time.

Irrelevant! I move to have this striken from the record.

And that Space Mountain refurb was a laugh. We still have the crappiest Space Mountain in the world.

Agreed. This has what to do with MK needing an e-ticket?

EPCOT, not many complaints there(except the SSE decent)...maybe replace the WOL pavillion and add another country, but It's probably the most complete park in my mind.

Fine. And why does this mean MK needs an e-ticket? :shrug:

Hollywood Studios needs one or two more attractions to build it up, and Fantasmic really should be brought back nightly. Dropping it to two days a week was a terrible move.

Agreed. I would actually argue that what DHS needs most is dark rides. But if you're going to build an e-ticket, it needs it second most.

(Btw, this really works counter to your argument that MK needs an e-ticket.)

Animal Kingdom is the most in need of some new stuff. Two or three more E-ticket attractions, a few smaller attractions and shows, and the park would be fine.

Your honor, I move to have this case dismissed on the grounds that the prosecution has just made my point for me!

There is alot of work that needs to be done in Walt Disney World. I used to be one of those who couldn't wait for a fifth park down here, but now I just want to see the TLC given to the four existing parks.

Totally agree.

Sorry, but the current FLE is not what I think WDW needed most.

That's fine. But you haven't backed up that opinion with any relevant arguments.

 

[dxwwf3]

Irrelevant! I move to have this striken from the record.

It's very relevant. That's the problem when the pencil pushers only look at how things are on paper. There are plenty of people who are return visitors and major additions are always needed to reintroduce the park to those that don't follow these things.

Dismissing the time period between E-tickets is just being short sighted. When people go to other parks first and they experience attractions that are much more advanced, it is going to change the way these regular guests view the park. Attendance is not going to go down at the MK because of the ignorance of a lot of people that go to the area. You can't manage parks from spreadsheets.

And again I don't disagree that the FLE will actually help the park out, even though it interests me very little. It is part of what the park needs, I get it completely. But saying the MK doesn't need an E-ticket makes zero sense.

 

[Lee]

No. But if you base your whole argument on opinion, you can't expect to win anyone over except those who already share your opinion.

Not trying to win anyone over.

Right now, your argument is that the FLE is bad because M&Gs are inferior to rides and M&Gs are inferior to rides because you say so.

I'm the only one that thinks so? Kinda doubt it. The only guests who find M&Gs to not be inferior are those who directly benefit from them: kids or parents with little kids. And even then, not all parents are M&G fans.

And you think they are equal? I don't get that.:shrug:
For over 50 years, guests have visited Disney parks to ride the rides, see the shows, and enjoy the atmosphere. M&Gs are a new phenomenon, which serve as an additional benefit. A side dish, not the meal, and should be treated as such.

Well, certainly HM is a bigger attraction than AG. But they are both still attractions. I never said all attractions are created equal.

So....everything in a park that isn't a shop or food is an attraction? Sorry, I can't be that general about it.

At the end of the day, does it really matter if you call them attractions or not. It's all semantics. They add capacity. Disney guests demand them. What are the cons again?

No, it doesn't mater in the larger scheme or thing. I don't know why we bother arguing semantics.
The con? When they spend a couple hundred million dollars to satisfy a M&G need that could be served for a fraction of that, with the remainder going to other areas, like we said, AK.

You just lost me. Dueling Dumbos is a stroke of genius. They should do this regardless of FLE. This is a signature attraction with extreme constraints. Doubling up on Dumbo makes so much sense it's not even funny.

Ok, then. Keep the double Dumbos. They are of no consequence to me at all.

So, basically non-princess M&Gs?

They had Toontown. It could have been refurbed at a reasonable cost and remained to provide a home to the non-Princess characters. The Princesses could have their own little corner of FL for M&Gs, again at a reasonable price.

The Villains concept has a lot less appeal than the princesses. The villains couldn't even support a character meal because they scared the kids. Meanwhile, princesses and fairies are bringing in over $6 billion a year combined.

But adding VV would have answered the capacity question, the dining question, and provided a signature ride that would attract all guests, not just the FL crowd. The Princesses could still have their little Fantasy Forest area, just not one that costs $100mil.

Also, I gotta question your math. If I'm reading this right, you're cutting the Dumbo refurb and replacing it with an e-ticket. Doesn't add up to me.

Nope.
My VV plan would have cut Mermaid and scaled way back the Princess areas. I'd rather have a unique, major E and a small, well-themed M&G area than a cloned D and gigantic, expensive M&G.

But that's just me....

 

[cmm12293]

Hey everyone, I am new, but I like the idea of expansion in FL. As well, I like where they are going for the most part, but I do agree that they should try and add more thrill and boyish attractions. I think they definitely could have gone with a Peter Pan section, that could include the lost boy's hideout, maybe like a hang glider type ride, etc. But then again, I think they should create a fifth park eventually and have it be based off of Neverland. Either way, I think maybe one or two real thrill rides could have been used, but I still enjoy the idea of the expansion.

 

[lebeau]

It's very relevant. That's the problem when the pencil pushers only look at how things are on paper. There are plenty of people who are return visitors and major additions are always needed to reintroduce the park to those that don't follow these things.

Dismissing the time period between E-tickets is just being short sighted. When people go to other parks first and they experience attractions that are much more advanced, it is going to change the way these regular guests view the park. Attendance is not going to go down at the MK because of the ignorance of a lot of people that go to the area. You can't manage parks from spreadsheets.

And again I don't disagree that the FLE will actually help the park out, even though it interests me very little. It is part of what the park needs, I get it completely. But saying the MK doesn't need an E-ticket makes zero sense.

It has e-tickets.

It does not *need* new e-tickets. Sure, they would be nice. But as attendance figures would indicate, they are not currently a necessity. Even attendance goes down, that will change.

Whatever "need" MK has for new e-ticket attractions is far outstripped by the needs of other parks in desperate need of the attendance boost a new e-ticket brings.

 

[lebeau]

No, it doesn't mater in the larger scheme or thing. I don't know why we bother arguing semantics.

Okay then. Dropping the entire argument over what is or isn't an attraction because we both agree it doesn't matter.

The con? When they spend a couple hundred million dollars to satisfy a M&G need that could be served for a fraction of that, with the remainder going to other areas, like we said, AK.

If the only thing they got for their investment was M&Gs I would agree with you. But we both know that's not a fair statement.

Ok, then. Keep the double Dumbos. They are of no consequence to me at all.

The Dumbos will have a huge impact on the overall guest experience. I just want to put that in perspective.

My dad's last trip to WDW was when he took my youngest siblings 20 years ago. He complains to this day about the long wait for Dumbo in the sweltering heat. He told me recently he wouldn't go back to WDW to save his immortal soul.

On our last trip, I took our oldest daughter on Dumbo for the first time. 5 minutes after rope drop, there was a 20 minute wait. By the time we finished riding, it was up to an hour. Thankfully, I knew to hit Dumbo first thing. Your average tourist doesn't know this.

They had Toontown. It could have been refurbed at a reasonable cost and remained to provide a home to the non-Princess characters. The Princesses could have their own little corner of FL for M&Gs, again at a reasonable price.

I would actually be all for refurbing TT at the cost of some real estate for princesses and fairies. But you're still trading meet and greets for different meet and greets. Obviously, Disney expects to recoup their investment.

But adding VV would have answered the capacity question, the dining question, and provided a signature ride that would attract all guests, not just the FL crowd. The Princesses could still have their little Fantasy Forest area, just not one that costs $100mil.

People would stay away from Villains Village in droves. Like I said, they had to shut down the villains breakfast due to complaints. The villains are fine for the Halloween party. But they don't have broad appeal beyong die hard Disney fans.

Nope.
My VV plan would have cut Mermaid and scaled way back the Princess areas. I'd rather have a unique, major E and a small, well-themed M&G area than a cloned D and gigantic, expensive M&G.

TLM is a slam dunk. It's a no brainer to clone it. It's cheaper than building a unique e-ticket attraction.

Also, as stated before, a new e-ticket at MK isn't necessarily desirable. Better to build that attraction at AK.

Your plan is a fine plan. It's not that terribly different from what we're getting. You've just prioritized an e-ticket at MK. But as stated before, if Disney wanted to build a new e-ticket, it would be better to build it elsewhere.

 

[RSoxNo1]

It all boils down to your definition of "attraction." No real right or wrong answer, just opinion.
To me, attractions are rides and shows. M&Gs are just an added bonus for a park like fireworks and parades.

That is a very narrow definition of "attraction"!

How about anything that people will line up for? Anything that adds to capacity? Personally, I consider some of the themed restaurants to be attractions.

I'm weighing this definition over and over for a site I'm developing. For the most part anything that has a designated entrance and exit should be deemed an attraction in the way I'm defining it. Everything else falls under the category of entertainment. There are a few exceptions like Fantasmic (I classify as Entertainment but technically has a designated exit and entrance) or the Main Street vehicles (I classify as an Attraction, but doesn't have a traditional queue).

This also means that Maharajah Jungle Trek and Pangani Forest are Attractions while the Oasis and Tree of Life exhibits are not.

MK doesn't need another Splash Mountain (e-ticket thrill ride). Other parks need it more. If Disney was going to build another Splash Mountain, they would build it in a different park.

What MK needs is capacity. FLE provides capacity at a relatively small investment. It also adds much needed dining options.

While I agree that MK needs capacity and the FLE provides this, I also feel that it is in need of another E-Ticket. That's not to say that the other parks aren't in greater need of an E-Ticket, it just means that the Magic Kingdom needs it as well.

Most in need of added capacity:
1. Magic Kingdom
2. Animal Kingdom
3. Hollywood Studios
4. Epcot

Most in need of an added E-Ticket:
1. Animal Kingdom
2. Epcot
3. Magic Kingdom
4. Hollywood Studios

I have my definition of attraction, you have yours. No problem, you are welcome to it. No right or wrong. Can't argue opinion.:shrug:

Still purely opinion. but one I believe I share with a majority of guests.
I would be willing to bet that most guests wouldn't put Pirates or Mansion in the same category as Ariel's Grotto. Nor should they. If you are going to classify things as "attractions" or "non-attractions" you have to draw the line somewhere. I draw it at M&Gs.
(Maybe we should put up a poll....."Are M&Gs attractions, yes or no?)

I would say that similar to the distinction I made regarding the Animal Walk throughs would also apply to Meet and Greets. The Character Trails in the Animal Kingdom, Ariel's Grotto, and Character Fun Spot qualify as attractions for me. They're not E tickets, but they are attractions.

Having said that, perhaps the qualifier for an attraction should be, "would this require a ticket in the old days?" While character meet and greets didn't require a ticket in the old days, something like the Character Fun Spot might require an A or B ticket now a days. The other problem is that If You Had Wings didn't require a ticket.

Attraction vs. Entertainment is an argument that's going to be discussed on these boards forever. It's similar to the A-E ticket debate, their is no widely accepted qualifier for these either.

 

[headhoncho34]

I'm weighing this definition over and over for a site I'm developing. For the most part anything that has a designated entrance and exit should be deemed an attraction in the way I'm defining it. Everything else falls under the category of entertainment. There are a few exceptions like Fantasmic (I classify as Entertainment but technically has a designated exit and entrance) or the Main Street vehicles (I classify as an Attraction, but doesn't have a traditional queue).

This also means that Maharajah Jungle Trek and Pangani Forest are Attractions while the Oasis and Tree of Life exhibits are not.





While I agree that MK needs capacity and the FLE provides this, I also feel that it is in need of another E-Ticket. That's not to say that the other parks aren't in greater need of an E-Ticket, it just means that the Magic Kingdom needs it as well.

Most in need of added capacity:
1. Magic Kingdom
2. Animal Kingdom
3. Hollywood Studios
4. Epcot

Most in need of an added E-Ticket:
1. Animal Kingdom
2. Epcot
3. Magic Kingdom
4. Hollywood Studios



I would say that similar to the distinction I made regarding the Animal Walk throughs would also apply to Meet and Greets. The Character Trails in the Animal Kingdom, Ariel's Grotto, and Character Fun Spot qualify as attractions for me. They're not E tickets, but they are attractions.

Having said that, perhaps the qualifier for an attraction should be, "would this require a ticket in the old days?" While character meet and greets didn't require a ticket in the old days, something like the Character Fun Spot might require an A or B ticket now a days. The other problem is that If You Had Wings didn't require a ticket.

Attraction vs. Entertainment is an argument that's going to be discussed on these boards forever. It's similar to the A-E ticket debate, their is no widely accepted qualifier for these either.

Another thing is we dont really know whats going to be in the FLE expansion until its finished. Ill even go out of my way to say that the M&Gs might be cut from the expansion and the money will go else where.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Another thing is we dont really know whats going to be in the FLE expansion until its finished. Ill even go out of my way to say that the M&Gs might be cut from the expansion and the money will go else where.

I think we're operating under the assumption of what has been announced:

Under the Sea: Journey of the Little Mermaid - E-Ticket omnimover that will take guests through all of the music from the Little Mermaid. The exterior will be a rock work Grotto behind a fully rendered version of Prince Eric's Castle
Beauty and the Beast Area: Enchanted Tales with Belle - Interactive Story Time, Be Our Guest Restaurant - counter service restaurant by day, table service restaurant by night (to feature living characters of Lumiere and Cogsworth), Gaston's Tavern - counter service restaurant
Dreams Come True with Cinderella - Takes place within the Tremaine Chateau from the 1950 film. You arrive at the moment she realizes she won’t be going to the ball, and her dress will transform from rags to a ball gown before your eyes, and then she’ll step down and have a 15-minute interaction with the guests.
A Birthday Surprise for Sleeping Beauty - Tucked away inside Briar Rose Cottage, deep within a lush, Eyvind Earle-inspired forest. As guests enter Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather prepare to celebrate Briar Rose’s 16th birthday, smack dab in the middle of the action from the original film. Guests are treated to all sorts of interactive fairy magic inside the cottage, with Aurora herself as the guest of honor.
Dumbo's Circus - A relocation of Dumbo the Flying Elephant to the old footprint of Mickey's Toontown Fair will see an additional Dumbo Spinner, effectively cutting guest wait time in half. The interactive queue will be underneath "the big top" where guests will see sideshow acts and play midway games while they wait.
Pixie Hollow by 2013
Mickey and Minnie meet and Greets Moved to Town Square Exposition Hall on Main Street (Exposition Hall refurb begins April 2)
Re-theming of Goofy's Barnstormer to Clown Alley

If anything gets cut, it would likely be Pixie Hollow.

Also, in my previous post, I'm operating under the assumption that the Monster's Inc Coaster is already coming to DHS.

 

[headhoncho34]

I think we're operating under the assumption of what has been announced:



If anything gets cut, it would likely be Pixie Hollow.

Also, in my previous post, I'm operating under the assumption that the Monster's Inc Coaster is already coming to DHS.

But was has been announced hasnt always been the outcome in the past. I aslo agree that the Monsters Inc Coaster will be coming to DHS around 2012.

 

[SeaCastle]

Why are the two mutually exclusive? What's wrong with an immersive experience in which you meet princesses? Surely we can all agree this is better than an non-immersive experience in which you meet princesses.

This goes back to the debate over what or what isn't an attraction, and I believe that subject has been broached for some time before, so I'll leave that.

I get that you don't want to meet princesses. Lots and lots of people do. Just try to book a princess breakfast. Look at what Disney can charge for them. The demand is there. Disney needs to offer princess meet and greets. Better that they be highly themed then held under Toon Town tents.

Disagree?

Not going to disagree there. Princesses are certainly popular, but within a certain demographic. Having a nicer theme is great, no questions there. I'd personally rather see the money spent elsewhere, however.

As for comparing FLE to a proposal that includes 2 e-tickets, you're really comparing apples to oranges. FLE is a cost-effective way to address MK's most basic issue. 2 e-tickets would not have addressed so many issues so cost effectively.

That's the magic word, isn't it? "Cost-effective", or rather, the easy way out. Imagine how much capacity would be added by installing two E-tickets. That'd be something to get the droves of people excited- people who would not otherwise go to Disney World and see a princess meet n' greet.

As I detailed in the Defense of the FLE thread, other parks need e-tickets more. If Disney's going to pony up for e-tickets, it should put them in one of the parks with low attendace. As long as AK and DHS are considered 1/2 parks by some, they are more in need of e-tics than MK.

Agreed, but this still does not extenuate the fact that the Magic Kingdom needs E-tickets, but the Animal Kingdom and Studios are in a deeper crisis.

What MK needs is additional capacity so they don't have to close the gates to paying customers on busy days. FLE provides that. MK also needs more dining options. FLE provides that. FLE also services a very important demographic which is not currently having its demands met by Disney.

The original concept would have included more dining options. Plus, as insiders on the board here have said, the expansion isn't adding that much capacityto the parks. It certainly helps, but the problem will still exist.

What project do you suppose would appeal to every age and demographic? Thrill rides certainly don't. They have built in restrictions that prevent certain ages and demographics from riding. By their very nature, they are exclusive. FLE will be able to be enjoyed by anyone who is interested.

As Lee said, put in an E-ticket, then build around that. Put Radiator Springs from DCA in Fantasyland...it would cost less than the FLE and provide an e-ticket as well as smaller C-tickets, plus dining options. (Of course, Carsland would totally clash with Fantasyland, but you get the idea.)

I addressed the issue of FLE appealing only to girls or children at length in the Defense of the FLE thread. Rather than rehash, I'll direct you to that thread. Short version: the demographic FLE will appeal to is not currently being sufficiently serviced by Disney. FLE will address that.

There are other demographics that aren't being well-serviced by Disney either, at least at the Magic Kingdom.

Yes, this area will primarily appeal to children. As has always been the case with Fantasyland. I don't see the problem with that.

But you're fooling yourself if you think adults don't go to meet and greets. Next time you pass a line for a meet and greet, look who's standing in it. You'll see plenty of adults without children. And some of those adults with kids would be standing in line even if they didn't have kids with them.


Check out the character meals. Sure, you'll see lots of kids. You'll also see tables without them. And again, some of those adults sitting at tables with kids would have come to the character meal even if the kids weren't there.

Look at all the pictures posted here of grown adults posing with characters with not a kid in sight.

Agreed. I was thinking about this before and realized my assumption was incorrect.

Adults will be enjoying FLE. Boys will be too. I am sure that little girls will be there in force. But they won't be alone.

And if you opt out, that's fine. You'll still enjoy the added capacity.

Win, win, win.

When are we having lunch?

What about teenagers? College students? Young adults? Usually you only see them at EPCOT, where that parks seems to have been skewed towards E-ticket thrill rides. The FLE doesn't offer much for them. Then again, I don't know the statistics or demographics of those that visit meet and greets, so I'll withdraw from the discussion. I will maintain, however, that (for my family, at least) the expansion doesn't really faze us.

Responses in bold.

 

[wm49rs]

Responses in bold.

What about the teenagers, frat boys and young adults? They can go ride SM or BTRR, or go to DHS or EP. This is one expansion in one park, yes geared towards young girls (and their families), whom will considerably outspend the other groups combined. And when the lines are lessened throughout MK because of the extra capacity at FL, all they have to do is say thanks and go on their merry way.

 

[cheezbat]

so much love for these meet and greets. Well I personally think they made a big mistake trashing Toontown...why? Because it was a great area? Nope. Because the MAIN Disney characters now have no special meet and greet areas at WDW's flagship park. In my opinion, they COULD build the M and G's for the princesses, but screw the whole Pixie Hollow garbage and show Mickey and friends some love.

Maybe one of these days we'll finally see that stupid Speedway go bye bye and see a worthy addition on that spot.

 

[Tigerace81]

You realize that Toontown wasnt added until 1989(?) and the park opened in 1971. They did perfectly fine before so I dont see what the problem would be now.

 

[SeaCastle]

To bow back into this conversation...

so much love for these meet and greets. Well I personally think they made a big mistake trashing Toontown...why? Because it was a great area? Nope. Because the MAIN Disney characters now have no special meet and greet areas at WDW's flagship park. In my opinion, they COULD build the M and G's for the princesses, but screw the whole Pixie Hollow garbage and show Mickey and friends some love.

Maybe one of these days we'll finally see that stupid Speedway go bye bye and see a worthy addition on that spot.

The "main" Disney characters are getting a special meet and greet at Exposition Hall on Main Street.

You realize that Toontown wasnt added until 1989(?) and the park opened in 1971. They did perfectly fine before so I dont see what the problem would be now.

I believe there were still wandering characters back then. (Cherish the thought...characters coming to see you, instead of the other way around! Brilliant!)

 

[cheezbat]

yeah...Exposition Hall...definitely NOT designed as a building for meet and greets. It would've made way more sense to me to see M and G's put IN Mickey and Minnie's houses...something designed FOR the characters. I guess that's just my two cents on the matter though.

And yeah...there were no 'real' meet and greets until the 90's...I always remembered seeing the characters just walking around the parks.

 

[Tigerace81]

They should go back to doing walk around characters for the "classic" characters.

 

[RadioHead]

To be honest I don't know why everyone is so up in arms about this expansion? IT is what it is. If it's not your cup of coffee (like Lee who can't voice his opinion enough) then fine. Just move on, and worry about something else...

I mean for gosh sakes people this thing won't be out for another 3-4 years. Hell you could develop cancer and die. So idiotic to worry about things like these.

 

[Tigerace81]

Thank you for speaking the truth lol. Everyone is starting to sound like a broken record now. Its just the same arguments on each side over and over again

 

[xdan0920]

This response is directed at the two posts above.

This is a Disney World discussion forum. FLE is the biggest announcement concerning WDW since AK. What should we be discussing?