Anyone else disappointed...that they expand FANTASYLAND?

[wm49rs]

It would be from me. I feel that any expansion should be attraction (ride/show) based, no matter the land or theme. FLE doesn't give that.

Well, based upon that premise, what ride/attraction would an expansion of Main Street be centered? Or a new nation in the WS? DAK wasn't built around Kali River Rapids or ITTBAB, but rather those rides and attractions were incorporated in as part of the overall theme...........

 

[xdan0920]

There wouldnt be any from those who think FLE is stupid and that there is too many M&G for princesses and fairies and not enough rides. But if AL was expanded M&G's would definitely be involved.

I dont understand why there is so much opposition to this. Your not giving up anything other then a M&G and a kids section with a ton of M&G. What replaces it is higher themed M&G and a ride. I dont see how you can be against that.

You guys think they wont ever change anything else in the MK after this. FLE gives FL more room for future rides. Plus it shows they are taking a interest in revamping the entire park by fixing the biggest need. FLE is easier to do because theres land available, TL is confined, AL is confined, and FL is mostly confined. FL only had Toontown to the side and mostly a empty space behind it. Just give Disney sometime and they will work on the rest of the park.

What we are giving up is hundreds of millions of dollars that could have been allocated better. Princess Land, aka FLE is not appealing to MOST boys/men. Just seems like disney is cutting a very narrow swathe when it comes to the demographic they are aiming for.

 

[Tigerace81]

Well would you rather have a stroller parking lot congested area, and longer lines throughout the park, or would you like to have a substanially less congested stroller parking lot and smaller lines?

 

[wm49rs]

What we are giving up is hundreds of millions of dollars that could have been allocated better. Princess Land, aka FLE is not appealing to MOST boys/men. Just seems like disney is cutting a very narrow swathe when it comes to the demographic they are aiming for.

Probably because the franchise is worth $4 billion..........

 

[Lee]

Well, based upon that premise, what ride/attraction would an expansion of Main Street be centered?

Main St. is hard. No rides/attractions there, really. Not needed.

Or a new nation in the WS?

Easy. Say they add Switzerland. The Matterhorn would be the centerpiece of the area, with other things (shops, restaurants, etc) surrounding it in a supporting role. The attraction is key.

DAK wasn't built around Kali River Rapids or ITTBAB, but rather those rides and attractions were incorporated in as part of the overall theme...........

Well, Asia was certainly built around Kali. First they establish the subject of the expansion (Asia), then an attraction that would tell the "story" of the land (Kali or Jungle Trek) and finally add the little touches like characters, shops, restaurants.
If they were to decide to build Beastlie Kingdomme, but instead of the dragon ride they built highly themed M&Gs for mythical characters like Herc or Pegasus...who would be happy? Only those who really had their heart set on meeting those characters. The rest would be disappointed.

 

[xdan0920]

Probably because the franchise is worth $4 billion..........

Where is this $4 billion number coming from? not that I don't believe it is accurate, but just curious.

 

[lebeau]

It all boils down to your definition of "attraction." No real right or wrong answer, just opinion.
To me, attractions are rides and shows. M&Gs are just an added bonus for a park like fireworks and parades. I don't like the idea of just any activity that takes place in a park being considered an attraction. I can't see PotC and coloring with Aurora being in any category together.
Streetmosphere isn't an attraction. A talking trashcan isn't an attraction. Pirate school isn't an attraction. Those are just added touches that help to complete the experience for the guests.

That is a very narrow definition of "attraction"!

How about anything that people will line up for? Anything that adds to capacity? Personally, I consider some of the themed restaurants to be attractions.

You had to go and bring up "coloring". This has been a rallying cry of the anti-FLEers. On our last trip, the masks at the Kidcot stations in World Showcase were a major hit. And they were always jam packed with kids (and often times teens and adults too). And they weren't even waiting to meet a character. The coloring was the whole attraction.

(Yes, I said "attraction". :drevil

The crux of your argument seems to be that meet and greets aren't attractions and that they are inherently inferior to rides. But you can only back this up with a weak "because I said so". It's not very compelling.

Certainly. I just question the amount of emphasis and money. It's a need that could be met in other ways.

I'm game. What do you think would have been a better use of the money while still addressing the same needs?

 

[xdan0920]

Well would you rather have a stroller parking lot congested area, and longer lines throughout the park, or would you like to have a substanially less congested stroller parking lot and smaller lines?

No. I would rather have something better. They had the funds available to make a splash, and they chose to build Princess Land. It is not as simple as, you get this or you get nothing.

 

[lebeau]

Where is this $4 billion number coming from? not that I don't believe it is accurate, but just curious.

It came from the notes in a 2008 financial statement. I no longer have the statement in front of me, so this is a summary and not a quote, but feel free to double check me:

Disney Princesses are the number 1 franchise among girls 3-6 and represent a 4-billion-dollar/year business. Disney Fairies is a younger franchise. While it reported only 2-billion dollars in revenue in 2008, it shows growth whereas the princess franchise appears to have leveled off. Disney Fairies is the number 1 franchise among girls 6-9.

 

[wm49rs]

Main St. is hard. No rides/attractions there, really. Not needed.


Easy. Say they add Switzerland. The Matterhorn would be the centerpiece of the area, with other things (shops, restaurants, etc) surrounding it in a supporting role. The attraction is key.



Well, Asia was certainly built around Kali. First they establish the subject of the expansion (Asia), then an attraction that would tell the "story" of the land (Kali or Jungle Trek) and finally add the little touches like characters, shops, restaurants.
If they were to decide to build Beastlie Kingdomme, but instead of the dragon ride they built highly themed M&Gs for mythical characters like Herc or Pegasus...who would be happy? Only those who really had their heart set on meeting those characters. The rest would be disappointed.

You're contradicting yourself. You said that an expansion should be built around rides and attractions, yet there is nothing to build upon should Main Street be expanded. Then you said Matterhorn would be an attraction for Switzerland. Yet, without Switzerland there would be no Matterhorn attraction. Same with Asia at DAK. If the designers hadn't first planned on building the Asia land, then the concept or notion of putting a Kali River ride there wouldn't have come through. You first plan on the lands and the theming, then the rides within. Not the other way around.....

 

[lebeau]

No. I would rather have something better. They had the funds available to make a splash, and they chose to build Princess Land. It is not as simple as, you get this or you get nothing.

MK doesn't need another Splash Mountain (e-ticket thrill ride). Other parks need it more. If Disney was going to build another Splash Mountain, they would build it in a different park.

(I hate to keep referring people to the In Defense of the FLE thread, but we really covered all of this in great detail over there.)

What MK needs is capacity. FLE provides capacity at a relatively small investment. It also adds much needed dining options.

Another Splash Mountain would add some capacity. But it would also increase attendance. Meanwhile, other parks who are already attendance-challenged would suffer in comparisson.

 

[dxwwf3]

MK doesn't need another Splash Mountain (e-ticket thrill ride). Other parks need it more. If Disney was going to build another Splash Mountain, they would build it in a different park.

(I hate to keep referring people to the In Defense of the FLE thread, but we really covered all of this in great detail over there.)

What MK needs is capacity. FLE provides capacity at a relatively small investment. It also adds much needed dining options.

Another Splash Mountain would add some capacity. But it would also increase attendance. Meanwhile, other parks who are already attendance-challenged would suffer in comparisson.

Ok I agree capacity is needed and the FLE will help that out. But the MK absolutely needs another Splash Mountain. Not from an attendance standpoint, but from an everyday guest standpoint. Major new additions are always needed at parks to spark interest and freshen things up. 1992 is a long time and it's time. Sure 1994 brought one of the biggest and best changes to any Disney park with the New Tomorrowland, but just about everything great from that rehab has left us. The MK needs a major addition soon after FLE finishes.

 

[cheezbat]

whats killing me with this whole dang FLE thing is there's NOTHING for boys/guys in this thing. I'm sorry, but PRINCESS meet and greets and FAIRY meet and greets and a Little Mermaid ride...those are the additions? Maybe some boys and guys don't mind that, but seriously, 300 million dollars on that? Why couldn't they have spent around 150-200 million on this, and say 100-150 million on a new E-ticket? Why?

Yes this will help with lines and crowds, but it really dissapoints many of us DIsney fans. What I don't like is how basically they're looking at the families with daughters as thier ONLY money spenders. I'm a single guy who spends hundreds or thousands of dollars at WDW each year. 1 person. But you know what? I bring friends and family and get them to spend money as well. I have 3 brothers, and many guy friends. This move IS alienating to people like myself.

What was all that talk earlier about whining about E-tickets and waiting? Um, hello...we've waited 18 YEARS for a new E-ticket at the Magic Kingdom for Pete's sake! How long should we continue to wait?

And yes...They really do need to target Animal Kingdom. In the next 5 years I'd like to see them spend a good 500 million to build that half day park up. So little to do there. Studios, eh, one or two attractions and I think that place is set.

 

[Lee]

That is a very narrow definition of "attraction"!

How about anything that people will line up for? Anything that adds to capacity? Personally, I consider some of the themed restaurants to be attractions.

I have my definition of attraction, you have yours. No problem, you are welcome to it. No right or wrong. Can't argue opinion.:shrug:

The crux of your argument seems to be that meet and greets aren't attractions and that they are inherently inferior to rides. But you can only back this up with a weak "because I said so". It's not very compelling.

Still purely opinion. but one I believe I share with a majority of guests.
I would be willing to bet that most guests wouldn't put Pirates or Mansion in the same category as Ariel's Grotto. Nor should they. If you are going to classify things as "attractions" or "non-attractions" you have to draw the line somewhere. I draw it at M&Gs.
(Maybe we should put up a poll....."Are M&Gs attractions, yes or no?)

I'm game. What do you think would have been a better use of the money while still addressing the same needs?

Easy. Use the 20k plot for The BatB restaurant and TLM. Leave Dumbo as is. Refurb Toontown. Use some of the other available space for a small "Fantasy Forest" where kids can meet princesses, and a princess shop.
Take the left over $150+ million and add a much needed attraction to AK, or DHS or even elsewhere in MK.
Or if you want to focus on FL only...
Dust off the old Villian Village concept. Put it on the 20K plot. That would give you increased dining, retail and a headliner E. Add the little princess forest with M&G and shop over by a refurbished Toontown.
Everybody wins.

 

[lebeau]

Ok I agree capacity is needed and the FLE will help that out. But the MK absolutely needs another Splash Mountain. Not from an attendance standpoint, but from an everyday guest standpoint. Major new additions are always needed at parks to spark interest and freshen things up. 1992 is a long time and it's time. Sure 1994 brought one of the biggest and best changes to any Disney park with the New Tomorrowland, but just about everything great from that rehab has left us. The MK needs a major addition soon after FLE finishes.

If you're in the group who is counting the years between major additions to MK, you are statistically irrelevant to Disney's bottom line.

The casual tourist (Disney's bread and butter) isn't complaining about MK being stale. They have no idea when Splash Mountain was built. They don't care what's new and what isn't. Most of it is new to them. Or it's been so long, it may as well be.

Sure, MK fans (like myself) would love a new e-ticket. But it is not needed. Or, if it is, it is needed more badly elsewhere.

 

[cheezbat]

AMEN!

Lee you are a genious. It's too bad TDO doesn't see it like we do.

 

[lebeau]

whats killing me with this whole dang FLE thing is there's NOTHING for boys/guys in this thing.

1. You're wrong. There are plenty of boys at the current princess M&Gs and meals. They will be at FLE too.

2. So what? The rest of the resort appeals primarily to traditionally male interests.

Read In Defense of the FLE for a more through answer to this complaint.

I'm sorry, but PRINCESS meet and greets and FAIRY meet and greets and a Little Mermaid ride...those are the additions?

um, yes

Maybe some boys and guys don't mind that, but seriously, 300 million dollars on that? Why couldn't they have spent around 150-200 million on this, and say 100-150 million on a new E-ticket? Why?

Because this is needed more at MK. The e-tickets are needed elsewhere.

Yes this will help with lines and crowds, but it really dissapoints many of us DIsney fans. What I don't like is how basically they're looking at the families with daughters as thier ONLY money spenders. I'm a single guy who spends hundreds or thousands of dollars at WDW each year. 1 person. But you know what? I bring friends and family and get them to spend money as well. I have 3 brothers, and many guy friends. This move IS alienating to people like myself.

Ridiculous!

You realize the rest of the (mostly male-dominated) resort will still be open so you can conyinue spending your thousands of dollars on (judging by your picture) manly viking stuff, right?

And they will still add things to the parks. Presumably e-tickets, thrill rides and boy stuff are coming.

If Disney suddenly decided to be 100% princesses and fairies, I'd agree. That would be alienating a lot of guests. But all they are doing is reaching out to a demo that is currently under served.

Again, read In Defense of the FLE for a very thorough explanation of how wrong you are.

 

[cheezbat]

Plain and simple.

Magic Kingdom DOES need a new E-ticket. It's been a very long time. And that Space Mountain refurb was a laugh. We still have the crappiest Space Mountain in the world.

EPCOT, not many complaints there(except the SSE decent)...maybe replace the WOL pavillion and add another country, but It's probably the most complete park in my mind.

Hollywood Studios needs one or two more attractions to build it up, and Fantasmic really should be brought back nightly. Dropping it to two days a week was a terrible move.

Animal Kingdom is the most in need of some new stuff. Two or three more E-ticket attractions, a few smaller attractions and shows, and the park would be fine.

There is alot of work that needs to be done in Walt Disney World. I used to be one of those who couldn't wait for a fifth park down here, but now I just want to see the TLC given to the four existing parks.

Sorry, but the current FLE is not what I think WDW needed most.

 

[lebeau]

I have my definition of attraction, you have yours. No problem, you are welcome to it. No right or wrong. Can't argue opinion.:shrug:

No. But if you base your whole argument on opinion, you can't expect to win anyone over except those who already share your opinion.

Right now, your argument is that the FLE is bad because M&Gs are inferior to rides and M&Gs are inferior to rides because you say so.

Again, not a very compelling argument.

Still purely opinion. but one I believe I share with a majority of guests.
I would be willing to bet that most guests wouldn't put Pirates or Mansion in the same category as Ariel's Grotto. Nor should they. If you are going to classify things as "attractions" or "non-attractions" you have to draw the line somewhere. I draw it at M&Gs.
(Maybe we should put up a poll....."Are M&Gs attractions, yes or no?)

Well, certainly HM is a bigger attraction than AG. But they are both still attractions. I never said all attractions are created equal.

At the end of the day, does it really matter if you call them attractions or not. It's all semantics. They add capacity. Disney guests demand them. What are the cons again?

Easy. Use the 20k plot for The BatB restaurant and TLM. Leave Dumbo as is.

You just lost me. Dueling Dumbos is a stroke of genius. They should do this regardless of FLE. This is a signature attraction with extreme constraints. Doubling up on Dumbo makes so much sense it's not even funny.

Refurb Toontown.

So, basically non-princess M&Gs?

Use some of the other available space for a small "Fantasy Forest" where kids can meet princesses, and a princess shop.
Take the left over $150+ million and add a much needed attraction to AK, or DHS or even elsewhere in MK.

uh uh

No spending the money outside of MK. I agree, money is needed at other parks. It is potentially better spent at other parks. But that's not the issue here. We're dealing with MK.

Or if you want to focus on FL only...
Dust off the old Villian Village concept. Put it on the 20K plot. That would give you increased dining, retail and a headliner E. Add the little princess forest with M&G and shop over by a refurbished Toontown.
Everybody wins.

The Villains concept has a lot less appeal than the princesses. The villains couldn't even support a character meal because they scared the kids. Meanwhile, princesses and fairies are bringing in over $6 billion a year combined.

Also, I gotta question your math. If I'm reading this right, you're cutting the Dumbo refurb and replacing it with an e-ticket. Doesn't add up to me.

 

[ddrongowski]

From the angle of share holder, if it makes DIS more valuable, I am for it. That is why I invest in a company. From what I have experienced when I visit the park, it seems to be popular, thus it should help generate more value. Thus I have no problem with it.