Al Lutz -- Fantasyland budget cuts

[jt04]

It sounds like a highly logical and effective approach to me. And to a degree it seems that's what WDW is doing with the FL expansion. But I also suppose this is purely academic until we start seeing construction walls going up in the area and what attractions actually open up (and when) over the next few years....

I agree. It's all theory. I'm just hoping we have more Pixar Places in the future rather than SM's. The mystery is whether SSE is done or is it the "phased" approach.

I really think the "phased" approach may be the future. If indeed it is a real strategy.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's also possible local and state governments are leaning on WDW to not "over compete" with the other attractions because they provide jobs and most important, taxes.

The state and local government would have no interest in Disney not competing as it would just be Disney generating the job creation and tax revenue. Local governments within whose jurisdiction Disney does not reside may want some of that action, but they lack tools to effectively pressure Disney.

There is something odd in Disney's behavior, I just can't put my finger on it with complete confidence. :veryconfu

Not really. Less expenditures makes room for profits. One of the big challenges in theme parks is the way that so much of what is offered does not have its own direct stream of revenue. Nobody pays directly for perfectly chosen landscaping. This comes from the 1990's launched desire for each department to be profitable instead of just the entire property. It is much easier to cite the economy, travel costs, etc. over a failure to properly invest in ambiance and experience as the reason for a decline in revenue.

If Team Disney Orlando is free to re-appropriate the Fantasyland funds then that would help to protect other annual budgets.

 

[jt04]

The state and local government would have no interest in Disney not competing as it would just be Disney generating the job creation and tax revenue. Local governments within whose jurisdiction Disney does not reside may want some of that action, but they lack tools to effectively pressure Disney.

But doesn't Disney have some special arrangements tax wise? I'm also wondering if Universal/Sea World/BGT complained about Disney possibly putting them out of business. Because that certainly would effect the tax base in Central Florida. They have pressured Disney to pay for roads and land so the government does have some leverage over the mouse.


Not really. Less expenditures makes room for profits. One of the big challenges in theme parks is the way that so much of what is offered does not have its own direct stream of revenue. Nobody pays directly for perfectly chosen landscaping. This comes from the 1990's launched desire for each department to be profitable instead of just the entire property. It is much easier to cite the economy, travel costs, etc. over a failure to properly invest in ambiance and experience as the reason for a decline in revenue.

If Team Disney Orlando is free to re-appropriate the Fantasyland funds then that would help to protect other annual budgets.

This seems like such short term thinking to me. In other words, in the long run it will cost them much more than they are saving. Because eventually people will not pay premium prices for reduced quality. Especially in this economy.

 

[_Scar]

BVS opens in Spring, 2012, so I imagine in August '11 it will be in heavy construction mode. I'm sure "stuff" will be rising up above the construction walls, but it won't be done then.

As for quality over quantity, that's a line historically reserved for Disneyland fans! :lol:

It's funny you've just flipped the tables and used it in reverse, but I think you should wait until you've actually visited for the first time before you begin using the big weapons. Before your visit, I strongly recommend you head over to the Disneyland forum here, or any of the other big Disneyland sites. There is a ton of info there for first-time Disneyland visitors, some of it from little 'ol me! :wave:

I was going to say that when I said that I meant for WDW only- nothing in regard to DL's quality. shoulda clarified. And I sometimes go on Micechat, but I don't have an account- a family member is a member of that site though and sends me anything worthwhile. I do see all Miceage updates though, and it keeps me up to date.

But yea, I'm really excited- and it's nice to actually see the construction on sites like miceage and know I'll actually be able to experience them and not watch them through a Youtube video.

Will some of the Trolley be up and running? Or no?

 

[WDW1974]

Leemac hasn't addressed the WDW Fantasyland issue directly. But, yesterday on LP Leemac did back up what Lutz said about Disneyland execs/Tony Baxter/John Lasseter all looking at expanding Disneyland with new E Ticket attractions and increasing park capacity soon. I guess it's the hot, trendy topic in WDI and TDA executive offices lately.

I have a great deal of respect for Leemac's opinions and insight, but he has his own agenda with what he posts too as he does do some work for the company. He is a big Tom Fitzgerald fan. And a big hater on Tony Baxter. He also has his folks around the net ... I swear he has some dude on this site whose sole purpose is to drum up sales of Tales From the LP, not that I blame him as he puts out the best Disney fanzine bar none (and I can assure you he is none too pleased about D23).

But whether it is Lee or Lutz or anyone else saying it, anyone who spends significant time at DL knows capacity is an issue, much like at MK.

And while no one in FLA had the balls to spend $$$ to add capacity until it was shoved down TDO's throats, I firmly believe that is what is happening now in Anaheim.

You can't have parks as popular as Disney's castle parks go 18 years (FLA) or 15 years (CA) without adding (not changing/replacing/repurposing) attractions. You just can't ... and yet that's exactly what has transpired.

So... Leemac has just backed up the Disneyland expansion E Ticket plans, which is what Lutz was really getting at in his brief one-liner mention of WDW's Fantasyland cuts earlier this week.

It was a throw away line. A shot designed to drum up hits for his site and attention on others like this MAGICal one.

As far I can tell, there have been no recent cuts in the F-land budget. Nothing that wasn't known before.

Budgets do ebb and flow as those following the DCA makeover know ... that's why things like more themed and appropriate queues for King Triton's and Mickey's Fun Wheel disappeared late in the game and they still don't have a definitive plan to remove/replace Maliboomer yet.

But Al's comment was designed provocatively to make fanbois blood rush and it worked.

Really gang, it was a brief one line mention from Lutz, who was only making a broader point about Disneyland. And that tiny passing thought gets this much attention on a WDW board??? This kind of stuff just makes me amazed that WDW doesn't have an Al Lutz covering that sprawling Florida property.

Disneyland is two theme parks, three hotels and a Downtown Disney, and it has Al Lutz, a preview center, and an online expansion site officially run by WDI. http://www.disneyscaliforniaadventure.com

You would think the giant WDW property would be able to get at least one of those things running, officially or unofficially! :lol:

The thing is, it doesn't pay to do so. You have no clue how many webmasters/online Disney personalities have asked me over the years to make my Spirited comments into something more regular. Unfortunately, to do it right is a full-time job and no one is offering a paycheck (believe me, Disney's PR Dept heaves a collective sigh of relief at that!)

And WDW is massive and sooooo much gets missed. I sometimes chide Kevin for not noticing things sooner, but it's very damn near impossible to focus on everything at four parks, two water parks, DD, sports complex dozens of resorts etc ...

Not only do you have to notice what's going on across 30,000 acres, but you have to put it into context of the big picture. Not easy.

 

[WDW1974]

I'm going to stick up for Al here and say that his track record is extremely good, going back more than a decade. Is it 100%? No - but neither are Disney's own predictions about themselves. The winds shift at Disney all the time, and what's true one day might be completely false the next. Al is chasing a moving target, and I for one am glad that he does. He's far more accurate than any of the other ultra-prominent Disney tipsters out there.

Absolutely true. ... There's a reason why the new Prez of the DLR was actively solicting ways of 'neutralizing' Al back when he was No. 2 at said resort in 2000-01. The man has a great track record. And he has pushed Disney to live up to its own press clippings, PR and legacy.

No one can be right all the time. And Al had some doozies when it comes to bad info if you go back a decade or so (turning the Mark Twain into a snack stand and Paul Pressler deciding to shut down the WDW monorail system to save money would be two).

But over the last half a dozen years, I'd say he's batting at about an .850 clip ... and that doesn't include when his info is right at publication, but changes down the road.

It's true that I don't enjoy his predilection for dropping in jabs at WDW, but in this case it was the stating of a fact and not an opinion. If he had said, "Oh, something's coming to WDW so it's bound to blow", I'd say go ahead and pile on. But he said that the ride *is* getting cut. I'd say that's pretty unambiguous.

What I got from his column (correct me if I'm wrong as it has been a lousy and loooong week and I'm too lazy to go reread) was that by his wording he was suggesting new and large cuts had been made. That isn't (to my knowledge) correct. What I believe is happening is he's talking the Fairie/Tink dark ride, which was blue sky for Anaheim and a possible Phase II for MK ... in other words, unlikely.

So, I think he was purposely being ambiguous so as to not be wrong. Nothing new of substance has been cut. If that ride doesn't happen, then it wasn't a done deal to begin with.

So, he's covered his . Nothing wrong with that, but I felt the need to point it out!

 

[WDW1974]

This seems like such short term thinking to me. In other words, in the long run it will cost them much more than they are saving. Because eventually people will not pay premium prices for reduced quality. Especially in this economy.

People have been doing so at WDW for the last decade.

Only difference is now they're getting big discounts on top of ever-increasing prices for Walmarted magic!:drevil:

 

[_Scar]

So, I think he was purposely being ambiguous so as to not be wrong. Nothing new of substance has been cut. If that ride doesn't happen, then it wasn't a done deal to begin with.

I agree. We got the basic new FLand plans give or take some small details. If I had to guess, anyway.

 

[MousDad]

It was a throw away line. A shot designed to drum up hits for his site and attention on others like this MAGICal one.

As far I can tell, there have been no recent cuts in the F-land budget. Nothing that wasn't known before.

Budgets do ebb and flow as those following the DCA makeover know ... that's why things like more themed and appropriate queues for King Triton's and Mickey's Fun Wheel disappeared late in the game and they still don't have a definitive plan to remove/replace Maliboomer yet.

But Al's comment was designed provocatively to make fanbois blood rush and it worked.

So let me get this straight - Anything that Al posts in his blog concerning WDW, in your opinion, is in some manner fabricated and should be dismissed as at worst a lie and at best a twisting of actual facts? Or is this an isolated incident? You've always been pretty hasty to defend Al's credibility in the past, so I'm a little curious.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

I agree WDW is getting stale. And DL/DCA is going to get better. BUT...

Since Anaheim is my "home" resort, I am there most often. Even though Fla. has almost an equal number of attractions as Calif, so what? I'll trade you Epcot for DCA any day of the week. Even with all its improvements, DCA will never match the sheer artistry of Epcot or Animal Kingdom. Maybe DHS but not the other two. Yes, DL and MK each have their plusses and minuses, but DCA is still and will still be, very weak as a second park.

You east coast guys can go to all the resorts, boat on the lakes, golf, etc. DL will never match it.

Just look at my collection of DCA 1.0 concept art (here for Part 1 of 3 ). Who did they think they were fooling? Don't get me wrong, I love Disneyland and always will but give me WDW instead.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

By the way, DL's Tomorrowland is a mess. Even though Florida's is "tooned out", at least it is consistent and looks great. Plus its got CoP, TTA, and the largest Space Mountain. Frontierland's BTRMM and Splash Mtn are much better than DLs. Granted, PotC at DL is the winner in comparison, but DL's HM is now second to Florida's. Once Fantasyland is redone, DL's will be passe. Liberty Sqaure is not as good as NOS at DL (no other land is as good), but the MK's package is pretty good.

As for DHS, their ToT is much better, etc, etc, etc.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Absolutely true. ... There's a reason why the new Prez of the DLR was actively solicting ways of 'neutralizing' Al back when he was No. 2 at said resort in 2000-01. The man has a great track record. And he has pushed Disney to live up to its own press clippings, PR and legacy.

No one can be right all the time. And Al had some doozies when it comes to bad info if you go back a decade or so (turning the Mark Twain into a snack stand and Paul Pressler deciding to shut down the WDW monorail system to save money would be two).

But over the last half a dozen years, I'd say he's batting at about an .850 clip ... and that doesn't include when his info is right at publication, but changes down the road.



What I got from his column (correct me if I'm wrong as it has been a lousy and loooong week and I'm too lazy to go reread) was that by his wording he was suggesting new and large cuts had been made. That isn't (to my knowledge) correct. What I believe is happening is he's talking the Fairie/Tink dark ride, which was blue sky for Anaheim and a possible Phase II for MK ... in other words, unlikely.

So, I think he was purposely being ambiguous so as to not be wrong. Nothing new of substance has been cut. If that ride doesn't happen, then it wasn't a done deal to begin with.

So, he's covered his . Nothing wrong with that, but I felt the need to point it out!

Ah, good.


I said this much earlier, but not as concise nor as well. Personally, I have only heard of one known cut, and it was not this. I'm not worried...and I can't believe I'm hoping for a technically sound Tink Ride!:lol:

So let me get this straight - Anything that Al posts in his blog concerning WDW, in your opinion, is in some manner fabricated and should be dismissed as at worst a lie and at best a twisting of actual facts? Or is this an isolated incident? You've always been pretty hasty to defend Al's credibility in the past, so I'm a little curious.

Well...Look at Al's bias. Bound to say something...:lol:

 

[HMF]

Just to add more energy to this thread and point out what TDO is not willing to do here is a side by side comparison of the new Fantasmic Dragon at DL vs. the current WDW Dragon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x3PIT6nH74

 

[_Scar]

Just to add more energy to this thread and point out what TDO is not willing to do here is a side by side comparison of the new Fantasmic Dragon at DL vs. the current WDW Dragon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x3PIT6nH74

DL got their refurb finally (and their dragon was older than ours was) last year, so give DHS a few years to get their dragon.

 

[TP2000]

Just to add more energy to this thread and point out what TDO is not willing to do here is a side by side comparison of the new Fantasmic Dragon at DL vs. the current WDW Dragon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x3PIT6nH74

That's amazing to see side by side! Not just the dragon part, but the Mark Twain vs. Steamboat Willie endings are quite dramatically different.

A major thread drift, but thank you for sharing that with us! Fun to watch the entire 6 minutes of it! :sohappy:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

DL got their refurb finally (and their dragon was older than ours was) last year, so give DHS a few years to get their dragon.

Yet the same Dragon was used in both. Curtains and a stick. :lol:

If they have the tech now, why not replicate it. Why make excuses for them?

I would be HIGHLY surprised if our Fant! went down for a refurb, seeing that it's the only form of night entertainment in the park, since the stupidly nixed Sorcery in the Sky. Something that REALLY ticks me off, I know I sound bitter. One of the best shows, due to such close proximity of the launches, and they kill it for a stage show. :lol:

I love Fantasmic, too, of course, but NOTHING beat rooftop launches right on top of you (Not like in Wishes, where they are in front of you) and a HUGE Sorcerer Mickey unfolding and shooting sparks. That was MAGIC.

If there's anything that I totally miss in DHS, it's SitS.

 

[sponono88]

DL got their refurb finally (and their dragon was older than ours was) last year, so give DHS a few years to get their dragon.

but this wasn't just one big refurb that DL got out of the blue. DL's Fantasmic usually goes down for a few months each year, and for the past few years it has progressively received significant upgrades. I believe it started in 2006-2007? with LED lighting on the princess barges, HD projectors, overhaul of the lighting system, strobe lighting/projections on the island(stage), reworked finale with new pyro, and most recently the new dragon, new crocodile, and flotsam+jetsom eels.

This year Fantasmic is going dark for about 5 months, and if the rumors are true then it will also be receiving fountain upgrades.. which is really the only thing left that still needs to be updated, imo.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

but this wasn't just one big refurb that DL got out of the blue. DL's Fantasmic usually goes down for a few months each year, and for the past few years it has progressively received significant upgrades. I believe it started in 2006-2007? with LED lighting on the princess barges, HD projectors, overhaul of the lighting system, strobe lighting/projections on the island(stage), reworked finale with new pyro, and most recently the new dragon, new crocodile, and flotsam+jetsom eels.

This year Fantasmic is going dark for about 5 months, and if the rumors are true then it will also be receiving fountain upgrades.. which is really the only thing left that still needs to be updated, imo.

And just as WoC gets amazing, new, technically advanced Fountains. I can see some link there, you know?


How I envy you, Disneyland.

 

[_Scar]

but this wasn't just one big refurb that DL got out of the blue. DL's Fantasmic usually goes down for a few months each year, and for the past few years it has progressively received significant upgrades. I believe it started in 2006-2007? with LED lighting on the princess barges, HD projectors, overhaul of the lighting system, strobe lighting/projections on the island(stage), reworked finale with new pyro, and most recently the new dragon, new crocodile, and flotsam+jetsom eels.

This year Fantasmic is going dark for about 5 months, and if the rumors are true then it will also be receiving fountain upgrades.. which is really the only thing left that still needs to be updated, imo.

Well then, I guess DHS will be expecting that in the near future.

 

[SirGoofy]

Well then, I guess DHS will be expecting that in the near future.

:ROFLOL:

You have so much to learn.