Al Lutz -- Fantasyland budget cuts

[KevinYee]

What thread did he post in??? I'd like to contact him...

Howdy!!

First, a great big thank you for thinking of me on this topic; it's flattering and I am honored. (double-checking my syntax, it looks like I just said I like being associated with a slide in quality! heavens!)

I have indeed been trying to document a slide in quality, show quality standards, "Disney Look" standards, operational issues, upkeep budgets, and the like... I think the term "declining by degrees" came about in 2006.

The spectrum of reaction to Fantasyland (and no, I don't know any more than the rest of you... your speculations are mine too!) is pretty much the spectrum of reaction to Lights of Winter. That is to say, everyone has his own "straw that broke the camel's back." For some, it's a cut in Fantasyland. For others, it was LoW. For still others, who are by now long gone from Disney and not coming back, it was the destruction of quiet areas, the turning of Main Street into a mall, the cartooning of Tomorrowland, etc. Still others haven't reached their straw yet. Maybe if they took out all roller-coasters and went the kiddie-ride direction?

That's a long winded way of saying that YOUR straw may not be the same as someone else's straw. And there are folks around with no straw at all - they would keep going if MK was razed and turned into Disney's Florida Adventure.

For this reason, I'm usually loathe to join boycotts. I have a teeny-tiny bully pulpit and hope (delude myself?) into thinking that *pointing out* the deficiencies may do more good than simply stopping going by myself. And, truth be told, I still enjoy the experience quite a bit. Disney is still the industry leader, despite everything. So I like to think we (this community, my own articles, other bloggers) can collectively hold power.

Is a SAVE-WDW campaign necessary? That depends on you and your straws, doesn't it? You'd get the whole spectrum of reaction there, much as I do in my emails and on message boards (it can be wince-inducing to read what people say about you when they think you don't have an account on that message board. Al's last name, for instance, should not be call for ad hominem attacks).

Will I help? I'm hesitant to take on more work - goodness knows I have projects lying around here as it is. And I would point out that my weekly article is a somewhat relentless (some say much-too-negative) charting of the shortfalls as it is.

That said, I'm sympathetic to the cause, too. I'll certainly do what I can if it fits my existing projects and articles, and obviously I'd help promote it.

How's that for a wishy-washy, middle of the road answer?

 

[Captain Chaos]

Howdy!!

First, a great big thank you for thinking of me on this topic; it's flattering and I am honored. (double-checking my syntax, it looks like I just said I like being associated with a slide in quality! heavens!)

I have indeed been trying to document a slide in quality, show quality standards, "Disney Look" standards, operational issues, upkeep budgets, and the like... I think the term "declining by degrees" came about in 2006.

The spectrum of reaction to Fantasyland (and no, I don't know any more than the rest of you... your speculations are mine too!) is pretty much the spectrum of reaction to Lights of Winter. That is to say, everyone has his own "straw that broke the camel's back." For some, it's a cut in Fantasyland. For others, it was LoW. For still others, who are by now long gone from Disney and not coming back, it was the destruction of quiet areas, the turning of Main Street into a mall, the cartooning of Tomorrowland, etc. Still others haven't reached their straw yet. Maybe if they took out all roller-coasters and went the kiddie-ride direction?

That's a long winded way of saying that YOUR straw may not be the same as someone else's straw. And there are folks around with no straw at all - they would keep going if MK was razed and turned into Disney's Florida Adventure.

For this reason, I'm usually loathe to join boycotts. I have a teeny-tiny bully pulpit and hope (delude myself?) into thinking that *pointing out* the deficiencies may do more good than simply stopping going by myself. And, truth be told, I still enjoy the experience quite a bit. Disney is still the industry leader, despite everything. So I like to think we (this community, my own articles, other bloggers) can collectively hold power.

Is a SAVE-WDW campaign necessary? That depends on you and your straws, doesn't it? You'd get the whole spectrum of reaction there, much as I do in my emails and on message boards (it can be wince-inducing to read what people say about you when they think you don't have an account on that message board. Al's last name, for instance, should not be call for ad hominem attacks).

Will I help? I'm hesitant to take on more work - goodness knows I have projects lying around here as it is. And I would point out that my weekly article is a somewhat relentless (some say much-too-negative) charting of the shortfalls as it is.

That said, I'm sympathetic to the cause, too. I'll certainly do what I can if it fits my existing projects and articles, and obviously I'd help promote it.

How's that for a wishy-washy, middle of the road answer?

Thanks for the response Kevin... I don't think more voices can hurt... I love reading your articles..

This Save WDW campaign can't hurt... and hey, if it fails, we can't say we didn't try.... But, we have to stop being silent on the matter of mediocrity, and we have to let them know we aren't going to tolerate it anymore...

I think this was building up for some time now... LoW, FLE cut back, the Space Mountain refurb, the pathetic not complete ending to Spaceship Earth... You name, it, there are plenty if instances where we forgave Disney... Where we said, "well, they'll fix it cause Disney knows what they are doing..." And where are we????

I appreciate you taking the time to respond... Hopefully the future will be even brighter for generations to enjoy in WDW!!!!

 

[TP2000]

No one knows if it's true or not (except Al, I guess). And he ain't talking, apparently.

Edit: LeeMac might too, but he ain't talking either.

Leemac hasn't addressed the WDW Fantasyland issue directly. But, yesterday on LP Leemac did back up what Lutz said about Disneyland execs/Tony Baxter/John Lasseter all looking at expanding Disneyland with new E Ticket attractions and increasing park capacity soon. I guess it's the hot, trendy topic in WDI and TDA executive offices lately.

So... Leemac has just backed up the Disneyland expansion E Ticket plans, which is what Lutz was really getting at in his brief one-liner mention of WDW's Fantasyland cuts earlier this week.

Really gang, it was a brief one line mention from Lutz, who was only making a broader point about Disneyland. And that tiny passing thought gets this much attention on a WDW board??? This kind of stuff just makes me amazed that WDW doesn't have an Al Lutz covering that sprawling Florida property.

Disneyland is two theme parks, three hotels and a Downtown Disney, and it has Al Lutz, a preview center, and an online expansion site officially run by WDI. http://www.disneyscaliforniaadventure.com

You would think the giant WDW property would be able to get at least one of those things running, officially or unofficially! :lol:

 

[_Scar]

Leemac hasn't addressed the WDW Fantasyland issue directly. But, yesterday on LP Leemac did back up what Lutz said about Disneyland execs/Tony Baxter/John Lasseter all looking at expanding Disneyland with new E Ticket attractions and increasing park capacity soon. I guess it's the hot, trendy topic in WDI and TDA executive offices lately.

So... Leemac has just backed up the Disneyland expansion E Ticket plans, which is what Lutz was really getting at in his brief one-liner mention of WDW's Fantasyland cuts earlier this week.

Really gang, it was a brief one line mention from Lutz, who was only making a broader point about Disneyland. And that tiny passing thought gets this much attention on a WDW board??? This kind of stuff just makes me amazed that WDW doesn't have an Al Lutz covering that sprawling Florida property.

Disneyland is two theme parks, three hotels and a Downtown Disney, and it has Al Lutz, a preview center, and an online expansion site officially run by WDI. http://www.disneyscaliforniaadventure.com

You would think the giant WDW property would be able to get at least one of those things running, officially or unofficially! :lol:

There are better things to do. If you are around it so much, eventually you will get tired of it. Maybe not for Al, but I know I couldn't handle scowering the parks all the time. Besides, it's not what they're meant for. Maybe TDL/DL is because they're community based, but WDW I don't think it'd work. Too much to see, too much to keep track of, too much.

And since we don't have someone like Lutz in WDW, FLand isn't really such a lively topic like it used to be. So, I don't really see the need to bash us because we crowd a new thread- and I don't think it's a big deal at all.

And DCA needed that site to grab some attention. Glad WDI is running it, too. Can't wait to see WoC!

 

[TP2000]

And since we don't have someone like Lutz in WDW, FLand isn't really such a lively topic like it used to be. So, I don't really see the need to bash us because we crowd a new thread- and I don't think it's a big deal at all.

And DCA needed that site to grab some attention. Glad WDI is running it, too. Can't wait to see WoC!

I apologize if I sounded like I was "bashing" you and the rest of the folks here. I just reread my post above, and it wasn't really meant it to be a "bash". Just a funny observation more than anything. :wave:

When you visit California and the Disneyland Resort for the first time, I think you are going to be surprised what is packed into those two parks.

By May, 2012 when five additional attractions (Mermaid '11, Red Car '12, Tow Mater's '12, Roamin' Tires '12, Radiator Springs Racers '12) and one additional entertaiment spectacular (World of Color '10) have opened at DCA, there will be an equal number of attractions and an equal number of major entertainment spectaculars packed into the two Anaheim parks than there are in the four WDW parks combined. Amazing, yet true!

You could also look at that from the 2010 perspective, when the two DLR parks have just five fewer attractions and one less entertainment spectacular than the combined four WDW parks currently have. Yikes!

Which gets us back to the topic at hand; Fantasyland expansion. Even with Little Mermaid and a collection of Princess Meet N' Greets as new additions (although Mermaid only replaces an original 1971 E Ticket), WDW needs to be building more rides, rides, and then some more RIDES.


.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I remember reading a blog about two years ago that described a scenario where all the attractions in central Florida might decide to play nice and cooperate and this might be a very smart business strategy. It was written by a person that was involved with a company that actually promoted this strategy. In other words, TWWoHP is good for WDW because without spending a dime WDW will get overflow for the first few years it's open. And vice versa when the new FL opens for Uni and SW. It made me sick to read but I'm really wondering if this is not actually happening.

It's also possible local and state governments are leaning on WDW to not "over compete" with the other attractions because they provide jobs and most important, taxes.

There is something odd in Disney's behavior, I just can't put my finger on it with complete confidence. :veryconfu

Well, we shall see if Uni answers to WDW's FLE and ST. If they do, it would certainly lend itself to that blogger's thoughts.

Again, his wording is much more ominous than the summary you just gave:

"and the budget for the WDW version of that ride [Tink] has been slashed and burned as part of Team Disney Orlando's retrenchment on their recently scaled back Fantasyland expansion."

I know I sound like I am making excuses, but Al usually does sound a bit ominous. That's his style.

However, there is increasing word that things ARE being cut, but I'm getting the feeling that it's in a different place. Hopefully I can find out more with my few connections. IE, I beg people. :lookaroun:lol:


KevinYee, thanks for posting... It's nice to have some incite on the boards.

 

[MousDad]

Really gang, it was a brief one line mention from Lutz, who was only making a broader point about Disneyland. And that tiny passing thought gets this much attention on a WDW board???

The context of the article, the target audience of the blog, and amount of copy space used are completely and utterly irrelevant. We all have a clear understanding of who Al is, what his site covers, and what the themes of the article were.

Despite the fact that it was a 2 line interjection, the scope and impact of what was stated (not implied, he stated it clearly enough), warrants serious discussion on a WDW board. How can you in your right mind think that it's a passing thought that doesn't need much attention on a WDW board?

If Jim Hill dropped a line in a review about Mary Poppins that DL was getting "a recently scaled back budget for Cars Land," do you think that a DL board wouldn't pick up on it?

Al needs to be accountable for what he writes - period, whether it's 2 pages about DL or 1 sentence about WDW.

If it was a substantless jab, then he is a fake. A loss of credibility over 1 sentence = a loss of credibility in entirety.

If it was a bungling of words so that the meaning reads differently, then he should go to school.

But if it's not one of those 2 things, we have a serious topic for discussion.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

The context of the article, the target audience of the blog, and amount of copy space used are completely and utterly irrelevant. We all have a clear understanding of who Al is, what his site covers, and what the themes of the article were.

Despite the fact that it was a 2 line interjection, the scope and impact of what was stated (not implied, he stated it clearly enough), warrants serious discussion on a WDW board. How can you in your right mind think that it's a passing thought that doesn't need much attention on a WDW board?

If Jim Hill dropped a line in a review about Mary Poppins that DL was getting "a recently scaled back budget for Cars Land," do you think that a DL board wouldn't pick up on it?

Al needs to be accountable for what he writes - period, whether it's 2 pages about DL or 1 sentence about WDW.

If it was a substantless jab, then he is a fake. A loss of credibility over 1 sentence = a loss of credibility in entirety.

If it was a bungling of words so that the meaning reads differently, then he should go to school.

But if it's not one of those 2 things, we have a serious topic for discussion.

Exactly. With Al, you never know. But I am increasingly thinking that this is not good....You guys are getting to me. :lol:

 

[xdan0920]

Thanks for posting Kevin.

I find myself really buying into your declining by degrees theory more and more all the time, which I suppose makes sense. I feel like my camels back has been broken over and over, I keep saying I will not go back, but then I go anyway. I feel like this FL cutback may be the final straw for a while at least.

 

[GymLeaderPhil]

My PM privileges were taken from me.

Could you send an email?

 

[Figment632]

Perhaps send letters to John Lassetter? If anyone cares, its him.

I doubt that it would help Lasseter is stretched to the breaking point as it is.

 

[jt04]

The context of the article, the target audience of the blog, and amount of copy space used are completely and utterly irrelevant. We all have a clear understanding of who Al is, what his site covers, and what the themes of the article were.

Despite the fact that it was a 2 line interjection, the scope and impact of what was stated (not implied, he stated it clearly enough), warrants serious discussion on a WDW board. How can you in your right mind think that it's a passing thought that doesn't need much attention on a WDW board?

If Jim Hill dropped a line in a review about Mary Poppins that DL was getting "a recently scaled back budget for Cars Land," do you think that a DL board wouldn't pick up on it?

Al needs to be accountable for what he writes - period, whether it's 2 pages about DL or 1 sentence about WDW.

If it was a substantless jab, then he is a fake. A loss of credibility over 1 sentence = a loss of credibility in entirety.

If it was a bungling of words so that the meaning reads differently, then he should go to school.

But if it's not one of those 2 things, we have a serious topic for discussion.

Very well said. And what is troubling (and make no mistake Lutz was stirring that pot) was that they are actively and arrogantly bragging about adding major investment at DL while WDW actively and arrogantly makes cuts.

I realize they have seperate budgets, circumstances etc etc etc etc......

but there comes a time for the consumer to stand up. Perhaps a purge is coming and everyone is right about TDO's current way of doing business.

 

[MiklCraw4d]

Imagine the power of 1000 annual passholders ripping up their renewal letters ... in front of the entrance to MK or Epcot or 1000 at each!!!!

Actually, that's a really good idea. Get someone there from the Sentinel to take pics, and it would definitely make the news. Disney would hate that type of publicity, even if they'd probably just counter with more mealy-mouthed PR flack...

 

[MiklCraw4d]

Exactly. With Al, you never know. But I am increasingly thinking that this is not good....You guys are getting to me. :lol:

I'm going to stick up for Al here and say that his track record is extremely good, going back more than a decade. Is it 100%? No - but neither are Disney's own predictions about themselves. The winds shift at Disney all the time, and what's true one day might be completely false the next. Al is chasing a moving target, and I for one am glad that he does. He's far more accurate than any of the other ultra-prominent Disney tipsters out there.

It's true that I don't enjoy his predilection for dropping in jabs at WDW, but in this case it was the stating of a fact and not an opinion. If he had said, "Oh, something's coming to WDW so it's bound to blow", I'd say go ahead and pile on. But he said that the ride *is* getting cut. I'd say that's pretty unambiguous.

 

[DisneyNut2007]

The guy's got the best sources out there.

No, he does not!

And Kevin Yee, you are still just as idiotic as Al Lutz.

Paging Enderikari, paging Enderikari....

 

[TP2000]

I wonder if Disney knows something about the economy none of us know?

Well, today we learned that the economy just lost 85,000 more jobs in December, which came as a shock to all the "experts" at the White House and on Wall Street who had expected us to add at least 50,000 new jobs. Oops. It could get worse before it gets better.

In that multi year macro economic environment, a Resort model that is dependent on big vacations and airline flights and meal plans to get people in the gate might look less appetizing than a Resort model that is dependent on day-trippers and payment-plan Annual Passholders.

What I think will really help the Fantasyland project is getting WDI to produce an online Preview Center to help people track the developments and additions. When does construction start? Maybe once construction walls go up they will launch a WDI preview website? :animwink:

 

[_Scar]

I apologize if I sounded like I was "bashing" you and the rest of the folks here. I just reread my post above, and it wasn't really meant it to be a "bash". Just a funny observation more than anything. :wave:

When you visit California and the Disneyland Resort for the first time, I think you are going to be surprised what is packed into those two parks.

By May, 2012 when five additional attractions (Mermaid '11, Red Car '12, Tow Mater's '12, Roamin' Tires '12, Radiator Springs Racers '12) and one additional entertaiment spectacular (World of Color '10) have opened at DCA, there will be an equal number of attractions and an equal number of major entertainment spectaculars packed into the two Anaheim parks than there are in the four WDW parks combined. Amazing, yet true!

You could also look at that from the 2010 perspective, when the two DLR parks have just five fewer attractions and one less entertainment spectacular than the combined four WDW parks currently have. Yikes!

Which gets us back to the topic at hand; Fantasyland expansion. Even with Little Mermaid and a collection of Princess Meet N' Greets as new additions (although Mermaid only replaces an original 1971 E Ticket), WDW needs to be building more rides, rides, and then some more RIDES.


.

Sadly when I go, only TLM and WoC will be there. :/

Will the BVS street be up in August 2011?

And still, with DLR having so many attractions- I still like WDW's parks. Quality, not quantity sometimes. It isn't all about ride count. (I am an Animal Kingdom fan, y'know :lol

 

[TP2000]

Sadly when I go, only TLM and WoC will be there. :/

Will the BVS street be up in August 2011?

And still, with DLR having so many attractions- I still like WDW's parks. Quality, not quantity sometimes. It isn't all about ride count. (I am an Animal Kingdom fan, y'know :lol

BVS opens in Spring, 2012, so I imagine in August '11 it will be in heavy construction mode. I'm sure "stuff" will be rising up above the construction walls, but it won't be done then.

As for quality over quantity, that's a line historically reserved for Disneyland fans! :lol:

It's funny you've just flipped the tables and used it in reverse, but I think you should wait until you've actually visited for the first time before you begin using the big weapons. Before your visit, I strongly recommend you head over to the Disneyland forum here, or any of the other big Disneyland sites. There is a ton of info there for first-time Disneyland visitors, some of it from little 'ol me! :wave:

 

[jt04]

Well, today we learned that the economy just lost 85,000 more jobs in December, which came as a shock to all the "experts" at the White House and on Wall Street who had expected us to add at least 50,000 new jobs. Oops. It could get worse before it gets better.

In that multi year macro economic environment, a Resort model that is dependent on big vacations and airline flights and meal plans to get people in the gate might look less appetizing than a Resort model that is dependent on day-trippers and payment-plan Annual Passholders.

What I think will really help the Fantasyland project is getting WDI to produce an online Preview Center to help people track the developments and additions. When does construction start? Maybe once construction walls go up they will launch a WDI preview website? :animwink:

Yes, that is why I started suggesting a preview center long ago. That alone would win me back. I had never thought of a virtual preview. Could you imagine if we had previews of FLE, DTD/PI and maybe DHS? Nice.

I wanted to run this past everyone. One of the things I admire about the Pixar Place expansion was that it does not appear there was any "scaling back". Rather the project appears to have all (or at least most) of what Imagineering would want. But instead of then going through the scaling back process they decided to use a phased approach. So it appears to me they built the first phase to the highest Disney standards and they will add new phases (Monsters Inc, mini Carsland? etc) as budgets permit.

This "phased" strategy would be a much more highly desireable strategy IMO. Built it right or don't bother. Phases could be especially effective with the FL design.

Just some thoughts.

 

[wm49rs]

Yes, that is why I started suggesting a preview center long ago. That alone would win me back. I had never thought of a virtual preview. Could you imagine if we had previews of FLE, DTD/PI and maybe DHS? Nice.

I wanted to run this past everyone. One of the things I admire about the Pixar Place expansion was that it does not appear there was any "scaling back". Rather the project appears to have all (or at least most) of what Imagineering would want. But instead of then going through the scaling back process they decided to use a phased approach. So it appears to me they built the first phase to the highest Disney standards and they will add new phases (Monsters Inc, mini Carsland? etc) as budgets permit.

This "phased" strategy would be a much more highly desireable strategy IMO. Built it right or don't bother. Phases could be especially effective with the FL design.

Just some thoughts.

It sounds like a highly logical and effective approach to me. And to a degree it seems that's what WDW is doing with the FL expansion. But I also suppose this is purely academic until we start seeing construction walls going up in the area and what attractions actually open up (and when) over the next few years....