A Spirited Valentine ...

[WDW1974]

Totally just blew my mind. Always assumed you were in your 60s and a retired marketing/communications exec who had made a lot of contacts over the years. Being in your 40s...with your ability to see the overall picture from back in the 70s up through present day is a pretty unique/amazing gift. Cheers.

I'm really shocked at this as I've been honest and blunt about being a 40-something here. I've mentioned countless time being a kid in the 70s at WDW and how watching EPCOT Center rise out of the swamps was such an inspiration to me. I mentioned being at the opening of the park and my folks buying me a Junior AP (for ages 12-17 -- yes, they had them because they weren't trying to screw you for every cent back then!) Anyone doing the math could figure that out. I was a huge fan from my first visit. And in those days if you had an interest you read books and newspapers and news magazines -- real news with facts and opinions -- and also company publications, PR to be sure, but much truer and ... the word I want to use is 'purer' than similar efforts today. I also have a great memory and as life went on, I was trained to observe and recall what I saw/experienced.

This is why when people tell me that my memories are not accurate and WDW sucked back in 1978, but is better than ever now, I want to reach through the screen and ... yeah!

Now I'll find out @Lee is a 28 year old grad student at a Kentucky junior college and my entire worldview will shift.

She is ... well, almost ... she is 32. How did you know the rest?

 

[WDW1974]

it is gorgeous and spacious, but somehow soulless outside of the main lobby. But I think the real issue is Transportation, every trip requires a bus. The bus ride from MK to AKV is a nightmare in a way that rides from other resorts aren't. And if I wanted to drive everywhere, I wouldn't stay on property.

Getting a non-bus transport option to AK at the very least, would help a lot IMO.

Soulless?!?! That is the exact opposite to how I feel. Much like the WL. These resorts have felt like home since the first day I ever walked into them (WL was Day 1 in 1994!) They are so detailed and warm and welcoming. In a way, btw, that none of the three WDW monorail resorts are. ... I haven't had any worse experiences with Disney transport from DAK Lodge than anywhere.

I think it comes down to the fact that everyone wants to stay on top (or inside) of the MK, except for the people who love to eat and drink and love the EPCOT resorts. Very few people care about being next to DAK and right near BB ... and Flamingo Crossing.

 

[WDW1974]

For what it's worth, that's what I'm hearing as well. TDS's Frozen is still in the pipeline for Anaheim. The last bits of news I had heard (late last summer/early fall-ish) was: first SWL, then Marvel, then that more closely followed up with Frozen. The only potential wrinkle is if they go with the initial plans for Frozen which the show building would occupy the expansion plot to the side of SWL and the entrance and smallish Arendelle land (meet-n-greet) taking over the theater zone on top of the hill.

I think this is what will happen, but am not 100% sure. I don't know that they are.

After that... the future of Toontown is back in jeopardy. There is still desire to get the northeast corner of the park usable the entire operational day and safe from the fall out zone. SWL was originally going to be mostly indoors and under cover when it was going to take up this spot. In the early days of creative thinking after the reshuffle to behind Frontierland, one concept was to have a very big Fantasyland expansion using Beauty and the Beast and possibly bring a lot under one roof - restaurant and ride.

I'm curious to know if Frozen is being shifted there now and then it accomplishes the same.

Either way, no way Toontown is going to be there in say 10 years. (And likely gone much, much sooner) And while the big show buildings have their appeal in places like the swamps (even though except for the Land, they have destroyed this piece of WED masterplanning), my feeling is they want people outside in Anaheim with its near perfect climate.

BTW, interesting on B&B because I haven't heard much about it possibly going there.

 

[WDW1974]

Oh I agree...my comment was not meant to be a negative.

It IS indeed good to keep calling out things when standards fall below the level Guests expect...or below the level many of us realize the creative talents of this organization can achieve.

But that is the real rub -
Most modern visitors to WDW, and 'newbies' per say who have only been visiting since the late 90s and 2000s are not aware of those high standards and business practices of the days of yore.
It's the past visitors...those who may have been going to WDW since the 70s and 80s that recognize and notice the differences.

Newer Guests don't have anything to compare today's Park experiences and services with.
Us longtime Guests over several decades in many ways do.

It's no surprise then why today's Disney, when it comes to WDW, wants to target the newbies and 'one and dones'.
They don't want people to remember how the experience used to be.....unless it involves selling you overly priced 'retro' themed merchandise.


-

I keep saying this, but it does bear constant repeating: if you only started visiting WDW in the 21st century or even the late 90s, then you absolutely don't know and are unqualified (no matter how many times you've been since 2004) to speak about Disney quality because you've, frankly, never experienced it in the swamps. I don't care if that sounds arrogant or condescending. It's a fact. The way WDW was operated and the product provided from 1971 until 199? has almost nothing in common with what you either love or have become addicted to. It can still be a nice product and an enjoyable place to visit, but it is not what it once was and it is sad that you'll never know what you'll never know.

 

[WDW1974]

Can't tell if this picture is related to DLP's 25th or old concept art

That's art for WDSP from a while back. It was designed to show where Soarin' would go and some generic placemaking.
Not sure if Soarin' is still a definite, but that is the locale for it, despite fanboi bloggers constantly placing it in DLP's Adventureland.

 

[WDW1974]

I always assumed late 40's to early 50's. Like someone whose first trip was in 74 and the age of 6 to 10? Now I am beginning to wonder if @WDW1974 simply means Spirit was born in the Magic Kingdom in 1974?

Nah. He was between 12-17 on 10/1/82. OK ... and he was most definitely not born in the MK. Either a house or a hospital. But it was also an immaculate birth, obviously.

 

[WDW1974]

Its surprising, to me, because...choose a word.....life...or weather....or cobbler. The reasoning behind my surprise is mostly irrelevant but here it is:

I'm 39. My first visit at a kid was in 1981. I was 4 I think. My family drove down from Indiana every summer after that until 1990 (a beautiful Polynesian week-long stay with a gold key card for each of us). We went down less frequently after that but every 3 or 4 years we would go down for at least a day while hanging out at the beach that week. I began taking my own family in 2006. We go every other year or so. I earned a Master's degree to help facilitate the purchase of these trips and souviners on the trips. I've seen the park grow, I've seen it expand, add MGM (always MGM to me), add EPCOT, add AK, the waterparks, too many resorts...on and on. I assume (could be way off) that you and I are similar in age for a number of reasons. Younger people (younger than 35ish) are able to be disappointed by things at the parks now but they rarely have the anger I see on the boards from the 80s visitors. MK was WDW to these people. EPCOT was literally the learning place with science and countries but MK was pure fun. It wasn't crowded like today. There were lines but they were fair lines. There were new things each visit but you discovered them when you went. The way I visit the parks now is obviously much different than back then but my expectations are always going to be frozen to the quality and fun of 1990 WDW. I think I see similar expectations from a lot of people that also take unpopular decisions as something close to an affront on our childhood memories.

I say these things to qualify my surprise. I have a 'history of park visits going back 30 years or so' as you stated. I have read lots of books on the parks, the company, and Walt the man. I do have a fairly sharp understanding of the current state of Disney in the global media. I have a similar scope and viewpoint as a lot of other people on the boards. I'm still surprised Spirit is in his 40s. My surprise has very little to do with my ability to reference the things I saw in the 80's.

I try to keep my very infrequent posts inoffensive to the masses. I'm answering your question because I usually enjoy your posts and opinions. If you meant your question to be a hypothetical slight toward my surprise then I misinterpreted what you were asking for in your response.

See, someone like you is exactly who I want to talk to here. Someone who experienced very similar things to me ... yes, you are younger than me, but still not a 23-year-old who didn't visit for the first time until 2002 and can barely recall as it was one day at MK, one day at EPCOT and one day at SW and then nothing until 2009 when they started coming annually and were a CPer etc etc. It's not that their view is unimportant. It's just they lack the experience and perspective (sorta like electing an 'outsider' as President) to really speak on much beyond WDW of late.

Oh, and my family absolutely did NOT do one week annually at the Poly on the Gold Key plan. Most of our stays were last-minute and required staying off-property. I started staying on property most of the time as a college kid with a cheap AP who would often visit one 3-4 night weekend a month. And longer visits over the summer or spring break.

 

[WDW1974]

You both make excellent points. I'm continuing the conversation here so I don't derail the Energy Pavilion/GOTG thread. I figure every Spirited thread has no tracks anyway, so how could I possibly derail one.

Since I'm (in)famous for graphs, I might as well start with one here...

View attachment 194453

This represents how much Disney invests in its domestic theme parks compared to company-wide net income. It's a bit deceptive. For nearly 20 years Disney was (surprisingly) an amusement park business. As recently as 1990, Parks & Resorts (P&R) made up 51.7% of company revenue. In 2016 it was at 30.5%, still a sizeable chunk but not where it was in the 1970s and 1980s.

To @njDizFan 's point, Disney has a ton of money available to invest in its theme parks, a lot more than it once did. Profits have skyrocketed while domestic theme park investments have remained a relative pittance since 9/11. I previously estimated (most recently here) that Disney has underinvested at WDW and DLR by $2.8B since Iger became CEO in 2005. For some perspective, that means Iger should have been building the equivalent of a New Fantasyland once every 1-to-2 years.

To @gljvd 's point, domestic theme park investment is up over the last 6 quarters, with Disney promising to spend even more during the next three years. There's a real possibility that by the time this is over, Disney will have caught up and even surpassed where I think domestic theme park investments should be.

Things have been bad for a long time but things have been picking up recently.

Disney has disappointed in the recent past but there is genuine reason for optimism today.

Some naysayers will argue that Disney is not spending efficiently or wisely. I'll defer these subjective debates to others. Me? I'm going to watch the numbers and let you know what I think based on those.

I suggest you watch patiently and see what happens. I know I will.

I do disagree with @gljvd 's statement that "From here on ou[t] if Disney is smart they just need to rehab older rides and perhaps add 1 to 2 rides a decade to the parks." Recent history has shown that attractions are not what the public wants. They want well-themed lands. They want immersive experiences. They want shops and food. The public wants (overpriced) butterbeer. They want (overpriced) wands that can be waved to make something happen. It's good business.

And whether it's attractions or lands, 1-to-2 per decade is too slow. With four theme parks, that means (for example), Disney's Animal Kingdom's next upgrade would be in 20 to 40 years! With four theme parks, WDW should be opening the equivalent of a new land at one of its four theme parks every 2-to-3 years. At that pace, Disney's Animal Kingdom's next major upgrade would be in 2027.

Let the endless debate continue ...

You know I love ya and your graphs, but I can't give Disney credit for anything big picture at WDW now. Sure, small things. And I think Pandora is going to be amazing. Absolutely. But as we speak now in March of 2017, a project announced in September of 2011, still isn't open.

How they spend I will argue is as important if not more so than how much they spend. They have underspent for decades, if you don't include Anaheim because DCA's makeover project doesn't so a thing for WDW visitors. Let's wait and see what all of this spending actually means.

Let's also not kid ourselves. Disney, no matter who replaces Iger, is not going to spend like this on DLR and WDW moving forward, even if it is indicated. That wouldn't make Wall Street happy.

Again, to put things in perspective the last time the MK ADDED a real E-Ticket was during George Bush The Elder's Presidency. Realistically, the No. 1 theme park in the world should be getting something like that every 4-6 years and constantly getting smaller things.

 

[HMF]

Not sure if Soarin' is still a definite, but that is the locale for it, despite fanboi bloggers constantly placing it in DLP's Adventureland.

I take it that WDSP will be losing the "Studio" angle as well and become an IP dumping ground.

 

[MisterPenguin]

So my brother is in Epcot and he sent me a video of the Voices of Liberty singing "Let it Go." He said they also did Newsies.

When did this start? And please tell me it's temporary. Even he agrees that these aren't songs they should be singing and he's much more lenient than I am on what works well in the theme of the parks.

Two weeks it ago it was early Americana with the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

But they do have different sets and the sets depend on the repertoire of who's available that day and time of day.

 

[WDW1974]

I need to remember the glasses when posting. But since I just had to edit four bad typos, or change my story entirely if you're one of my pals, I thought I'd drop this in since I just read it:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pirates-746890-disney-disneyland.html

Now, I hate giving Tommy Boi publicity because he really craves it (of course, all the bloggers and podcasters and Lifestylers really do), but I am doing this more to showcase how lazy the reporters who cover Disney locally on both coasts are. Mark Eades could have easily found someone who isn't a 'fan community personality and self-promoter' for his kicker quotes. But it was so much easier this way.

Just like when Soup & Salad Sandra Tweets out that she's working on a story and can anyone help. All of these folks are on the Tweeter 24/7 and available. You typically get PR crafted responses. Responses designed to make Disney happy and give the blogger added cred. 20-something bloggers, even the ones who don't act like spoiled ill-bred children, shouldn't be your go-to sources for quotes because you are too lazy to work for them. ... I think ex-Robert Niles associate Matt Gottula is the opposite of the crazy boi and comes off as a mature and credible source. Yet, I've seen him quoted in multiple stories in a short period of time. And, again, I think it just is because he's a sure thing.

Of course, in an era where we have a President who thinks he can lead via the Tweeter, why should theme park reporters not think they can do their job via the same platform?

 

[Longhairbear]

I loved watching that fiasco play out. Lewis's 'miscalculation' was very close to being illegal ... and it cost Disney a small fortune. Disney never fires any executives. Not publicly. Not unless they are found in a meth den with a naked 14-year-old on top of them. They fired Jim. And told the world that Aulani's problems were his.

And then ... then ... he clearly played the blackmail card (to this day I'm not sure what he had/has and on whom, but he played it) ... and suddenly he had a letter of recommendation for employment and a sorta apology by either Jay "the puckish gladhander" Rasulo or Tom "the oddly waifish man of anemic personality" Staggs, can't recall who now and too lazy to look. And the fact he had this letter suddenly wound up a news story, so the world knew it.[/QU

I loved watching that fiasco play out. Lewis's 'miscalculation' was very close to being illegal ... and it cost Disney a small fortune. Disney never fires any executives. Not publicly. Not unless they are found in a meth den with a naked 14-year-old on top of them. They fired Jim. And told the world that Aulani's problems were his.

And then ... then ... he clearly played the blackmail card (to this day I'm not sure what he had/has and on whom, but he played it) ... and suddenly he had a letter of recommendation for employment and a sorta apology by either Jay "the puckish gladhander" Rasulo or Tom "the oddly waifish man of anemic personality" Staggs, can't recall who now and too lazy to look. And the fact he had this letter suddenly wound up a news story, so the world knew it.

I remember this playing out at the time.

 

[HMF]

I need to remember the glasses when posting. But since I just had to edit four bad typos, or change my story entirely if you're one of my pals, I thought I'd drop this in since I just read it:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pirates-746890-disney-disneyland.html

Now, I hate giving Tommy Boi publicity because he really craves it (of course, all the bloggers and podcasters and Lifestylers really do), but I am doing this more to showcase how lazy the reporters who cover Disney locally on both coasts are. Mark Eades could have easily found someone who isn't a 'fan community personality and self-promoter' for his kicker quotes. But it was so much easier this way.

Just like when Soup & Salad Sandra Tweets out that she's working on a story and can anyone help. All of these folks are on the Tweeter 24/7 and available. You typically get PR crafted responses. Responses designed to make Disney happy and give the blogger added cred. 20-something bloggers, even the ones who don't act like spoiled ill-bred children, shouldn't be your go-to sources for quotes because you are too lazy to work for them. ... I think ex-Robert Niles associate Matt Gottula is the opposite of the crazy boi and comes off as a mature and credible source. Yet, I've seen him quoted in multiple stories in a short period of time. And, again, I think it just is because he's a sure thing.

Of course, in an era where we have a President who thinks he can lead via the Tweeter, why should theme park reporters not think they can do their job via the same platform?

And of course they use a pic of one of the Sparrow Animatronics that has only been there for 11 of the 50 years.

 

[Absimilliard]

See, someone like you is exactly who I want to talk to here. Someone who experienced very similar things to me ... yes, you are younger than me, but still not a 23-year-old who didn't visit for the first time until 2002 and can barely recall as it was one day at MK, one day at EPCOT and one day at SW and then nothing until 2009 when they started coming annually and were a CPer etc etc. It's not that their view is unimportant. It's just they lack the experience and perspective (sorta like electing an 'outsider' as President) to really speak on much beyond WDW of late.

Oh, and my family absolutely did NOT do one week annually at the Poly on the Gold Key plan. Most of our stays were last-minute and required staying off-property. I started staying on property most of the time as a college kid with a cheap AP who would often visit one 3-4 night weekend a month. And longer visits over the summer or spring break.

From the year I was born until 1992, my parents did not miss a single summer to visit WDW. Most of the time, we drove from Montreal (24 hours) to Daytona Beach where we'd spent some of the holidays. Then, my parents drove us to Orlando where we would do 1 to 3 days at WDW. Except for one time at the Fort Wilderness, we never stayed on property until I worked there later.

I have the gift of a great memory, so I still remember the opening of the Disney MGM Studios (visited in July 1989), Epcot (I remember a 1986 visit when the Living Seas was brand new) and others. Know what my favorite lost Disney attraction is? Alien Encounter. I was in the last ever show in October 2003.

 

[WDWTank]

You know I love ya and your graphs, but I can't give Disney credit for anything big picture at WDW now. Sure, small things. And I think Pandora is going to be amazing. Absolutely. But as we speak now in March of 2017, a project announced in September of 2011, still isn't open.

How they spend I will argue is as important if not more so than how much they spend. They have underspent for decades, if you don't include Anaheim because DCA's makeover project doesn't so a thing for WDW visitors. Let's wait and see what all of this spending actually means.

Let's also not kid ourselves. Disney, no matter who replaces Iger, is not going to spend like this on DLR and WDW moving forward, even if it is indicated. That wouldn't make Wall Street happy.

Again, to put things in perspective the last time the MK ADDED a real E-Ticket was during George Bush The Elder's Presidency. Realistically, the No. 1 theme park in the world should be getting something like that every 4-6 years and constantly getting smaller things.

Why would expanding the parks fail to impress Wall Street? As far as I'm concerned the parks are a big money maker for Disney.
Also I looked up the budget of the new Pirates movie on Wikipedia, and it is supposedly around 350 million. That's a lot of money. Do they have budget cuts for films just like they do for theme parks? I never understood why Disney would cut costs in the first place, even 25 years after DLP opened. If it's really a burden, can't they just sell the park? That, and Hong Kong, and parts of Shanghai? Because If they sold the international parks, they can focus on domestic park spending and not have to worry about cutting costs.
It's like Disney failing to expand Pixar, and we all know what happened between them and Eisner.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Let's also not kid ourselves. Disney, no matter who replaces Iger, is not going to spend like this on DLR and WDW moving forward, even if it is indicated. That wouldn't make Wall Street happy.

Wall Street wants the current spending. They have seen the incredible success of the WWOHP and want Star Wars and Marvel in the theme parks.

If it was up to Wall Street, every single Disney park would be turned into IP Land.

 

[articos]

Wall Street wants the current spending. They have seen the incredible success of the WWOHP and want Star Wars and Marvel in the theme parks.

If it was up to Wall Street, every single Disney park would be turned into IP Land.

When it comes to complex financial instruments, Wall Streeters are geniuses. When it comes to creative for theme parks, film or television, they are total morons.

 

[NearTheEars]

I need to remember the glasses when posting. But since I just had to edit four bad typos, or change my story entirely if you're one of my pals, I thought I'd drop this in since I just read it:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pirates-746890-disney-disneyland.html

Now, I hate giving Tommy Boi publicity because he really craves it (of course, all the bloggers and podcasters and Lifestylers really do), but I am doing this more to showcase how lazy the reporters who cover Disney locally on both coasts are. Mark Eades could have easily found someone who isn't a 'fan community personality and self-promoter' for his kicker quotes. But it was so much easier this way.

Just like when Soup & Salad Sandra Tweets out that she's working on a story and can anyone help. All of these folks are on the Tweeter 24/7 and available. You typically get PR crafted responses. Responses designed to make Disney happy and give the blogger added cred. 20-something bloggers, even the ones who don't act like spoiled ill-bred children, shouldn't be your go-to sources for quotes because you are too lazy to work for them. ... I think ex-Robert Niles associate Matt Gottula is the opposite of the crazy boi and comes off as a mature and credible source. Yet, I've seen him quoted in multiple stories in a short period of time. And, again, I think it just is because he's a sure thing.

Of course, in an era where we have a President who thinks he can lead via the Tweeter, why should theme park reporters not think they can do their job via the same platform?

Quite weird to just quote Tom without mentioning that he's a WDW blogger.
Could have easily just found some random person getting off the ride and got the same response.

 

[Mike S]

See, someone like you is exactly who I want to talk to here. Someone who experienced very similar things to me ... yes, you are younger than me, but still not a 23-year-old who didn't visit for the first time until 2002 and can barely recall as it was one day at MK, one day at EPCOT and one day at SW and then nothing until 2009 when they started coming annually and were a CPer etc etc. It's not that their view is unimportant. It's just they lack the experience and perspective (sorta like electing an 'outsider' as President) to really speak on much beyond WDW of late.

Oh, and my family absolutely did NOT do one week annually at the Poly on the Gold Key plan. Most of our stays were last-minute and required staying off-property. I started staying on property most of the time as a college kid with a cheap AP who would often visit one 3-4 night weekend a month. And longer visits over the summer or spring break.

Being 23 is no excuse. There's plenty of research to be done on the topic and plenty of "back in my day" stories to listen to/read

Also @marni1971's videos.

 

[jmuboy]

Once the 25th anniversary is over, DLP will need something to entice people to come back to the parks. If they started construction later this year, they could make the formal announcement at the end of the anniversary campaign.

There's two dedicated expansion plots in Disneyland Parc that have been there since the beginning (Adventureland and Fantasyland), plus all that room in the Studios. I vote for Star Wars Land if it means getting Space Mountain back to normal. TSMM, a copy of the trackless Frozen ride and the Captain America coaster would also be nice. Just don't touch ToT.

Keep in mind we're also getting a replacement for CineMagique next year, though any details on that have been minor at best.

I think even as stand alone attractions within the studio park the Star Wars battle attraction and a marvel e-ticket planned for DL or HKDL could be cloned in WDSP. Those 2 attractions along with a new dining venue or 2 and the obligatory shop for each propertye ( marvel and Star Wars ) would round out this park. Place making will have to be on going a little bit at a time. I still think this park will always look more six flags than Disney. Part of the issue is it will always be in the shadow of the best MK style park ever built.