A Spirited Valentine ...

BubbaQuest

Well-Known Member
On the topic of DVC and Disneyland, I had thought that the new hotel being built at DL was going to have DVC as part of that. Or was that just incorrect internet guessing?

I really doubt it will have DVC. As I mentioned briefly in an earlier post, Anaheim recently added a 20 year tax break to encourage the motels/hotels in the area to be replaced with newer 4-star hotels. As soon as the tax break was approved, the new Disney 4-star hotel was announced. With that tax break, Disney will receive a 70% share of the hotel occupancy tax for the next 20 years. Assuming the new Disney 4-star rooms go for $400/night, Disney will be getting an extra $40/night in a tax rebate.

Again, I don't understand the DVC financial structures enough, but I doubt DVC at the current DLR hotel rates could be as profitable. I would assume Disney will convert older rooms into DVC before giving up this tax credit on new rooms.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Disneyland hotels have been maxed as far as occupancy and pricing for at least a decade. Within this time frame, DVC doesn't make sense as long as they can continue to pull $300+ a night for their 400 sq ft rooms. DVC rooms are typically twice that size for a 1BR. So unless they can manage more than double the price for a DVC, it's not a good trade off as long as occupancy is solid. If local attendance falls as much as they're trying for (major push to rid the park of pASSholes), then demand for longer stays at the hotels will only increase once people (like me) see a reason to go back to Disneyland after the local scourge has been dealt with. I've actually seen a lot of talk from friends, family and other acquaintances that just won't do to Disneyland right now because of the parking, food, and queueing problems that all stem from the hardcore locals. Disneyland will be more hospitable for tourists once that's all been addressed. If that happens, I don't see much of a reason for DVC and it's high maintenance costs/lower per sq foot margins any time soon at DLR.

You almost had me. Certainly, the load levels at the price points that Disney is able to command in Anaheim are Reason No. 1 as to why you don't see more DVC. It simply would be bad business (if you didn't hear, Disney is a business! Shocking, I know, because all fans assume it's a charity.) to add DVC inventory over traditional hotel units.

BUT ... when you start dissing the locals (yeah, some are definitely a problem ... but that's like saying some Americans are a problem ... in every group you have bad) and stating Disney is trying to rid itself of the locals where I start diverging. The reality is that Disney created the AP problem and it could stop it tomorrow. You simply end the program entirely. People want to visit? They pay for 1-2-3-4-5 days. They're locals? You take 25% off the cost. Maybe even offer a frequent Guest program like the old Subway cards where you bought nine sandwiches and the tenth was free.

Too drastic? Likely. But that's why I started with it. ... Disney has all these allegedly 'cheap' APs that are anything but. When Disneyland had $89 APs, maybe people had a point with parents dropping kids off like at the mall (a famous Al Lutz refrain from the late 90s-early 00s era). But when your least expensive AP is pushing $400 and the not-so-long-ago $199 PAP is over $1,000 and people are still buying them up, Disney isn't stupid. They are trying to change Passholder habits, not get rid of a guaranteed income stream (and, despite popular theory, APers do spend on food and crap). As soon as Disney saw a little softness in the market with the Star Wars construction and 60th hangover, they immediately restarted the suspended sales of the SoCal AP (second least expensive option). They also made the SoCal resident offer much better in 2017 than 2016. In other words, they aren't overly concerned about crowding and the like and they'd like to sell more passes at the higher price points if they could.

One big issue -- parking -- is something that has really been an issue since about 2005 and one that has been passed like a hot potato from one DLR Prez to the next. Now, finally they starting work on a second structure when the reality is it should have been open a decade ago. Once that opens, and with the moving of security, I think crowding won't be nearly as bad a factor.

Of course, what really should have happened was the mythical third gate with the Star Wars product and, possibly, Marvel as well. But ... Disney and Iger are very risk averse and opening another park is always a risk.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I was part of the local scourge for 15 years. But that was in the 90's/early 2000's and those people weren't really an issue back then. Rising up and crying over losing MSEP or Country Bears isn't keeping it traditional. Disney didn't care then, and they don't care now. They only care to address locals now because they're negatively affecting the resorts ability to function even during off-peak periods. Of course, they catered to these locals for the last 20+ years by offering discounts, perks, and ridiculously low priced Annual Passes. Now those chickens have come home to roost and it's time for a new business model. Glad it's finally being addressed.

I was a local and part time resident basically for a decade, including those years you talk about. I believe I paid $199 for a two-park PAP for a good 3-4 years and then it didn't go up much. My final AP, a 2007 Deluxe cost either $229 or 239. Again, crowding wasn't an issue for the most part until the 2005 50th Anniversary Celebration showed the bigwigs up the 5 Freeway in Burbank just what a gem they had in 'Walt's park' ... the reality since has been steadily increasing AP prices and, yet, the crowds keep coming. Who in their right mind, unless they're loaded, spends $1,049 for a two-park AP? The passes are all insanely priced and DL has more APers than ever. Yes, it's now much busier on a Sunday in October than just about any day in June or July. Yes, the parks can go from blissfully empty on a January morning to insane body to body after 4 p.m. Whatever you think Disney is doing, the only thing that is working is they are making far more money from far more APers. With new major reasons to visit, I don't see that trend changing in the years ahead.

My types back then are now the hoards that choke the place for hours every evening now- most of which aren't buying anything or riding anything (though I've always dined and ridden attractions- even to the chagrin of other more "social" people in my group). Back in my day, socialization at Disneyland was a very limited affair though- it wasn't affecting the park. At this point, the place is over-run. Disneyland is hitting max capacity on Sundays in February because of one thing- and they're actively trying to combat that problem now and I applaud them for it.

If anyone thinks that the hardcore Disney locals at DLR are benecificial- I challenge you to find a good spot for Paint the Night or MSEP less than 3 hours in advance. Same went for Fantasmic before they added fastpass to stop the locals over there. Visit the park on a Sunday afternoon and deal with the social clubs and tell me it's a good thing.

I spent a week at the resort in August of 2015. Walked right up to a great location for Fantasmic on the first night after seeing PtN a while earlier from Small World Plaza with only a few people directly in front. I didn't wait hours for a decent spot to see the parade every night I was there. Or the pyro as well. ... I am not denying that it can get crazy. My knowledge of the park and certain spots helped. ... My last visit(s) were last September. None of the major entertainment. No night parade. Biggest thing was WoC, which we saw twice in three nights with FP. None of the days (two Saturdays and a Wednesday) were all that crowded. The second Saturday actually felt downright uncrowded and RSRs was offering FPs in late afternoon still ... I'm not there enough anymore to speak about the social clubs, just that I didn't notice them at all on my last visit.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I'm glad you haven't had to deal with this issue, but it is/was common. Did you attend during blockouts by any chance? Disneyland's "off days" are now the days when AP's are blocked out. When they're not, it's usually all hands on deck peak season operations. During my last several visits over the past few years, our most pleasant days were the Saturdays when blockouts were in effect. Queues for attractions and the pre-parade line ups were all significantly smaller than the other days.

Yes. I just posted about this before seeing your post above. You absolutely can tell the difference on Saturdays when most APs are blocked out. It was quite pleasant doing this last fall.

Either way though, it's clearly a problem that Disney is working to address. Fantasmic and World of Color are fastpass for the singular reason of preventing locals from clogging up the areas hours in advance. Now they're trying (and failing) to try and stop people from lining up more than an hour before parades, because (not kidding), people were staking out benches shortly after 12PM for a 7PM show. Locals are actively fighting the new rules, and Disney being the customer oriented business that they are is letting them win. There are outright shouting matches when people are asked to not set a blanket down on Main St at 6 PM for a 9 PM show.

To be fair, I recall tales of people camping out for Fantasmic way back in the 90s before the cheap APs were even available. Disney needs to simply enforce a policy. Tokyo had the same issue. Some people would enter the park in the morning and camp on a sidewalk for a parade many hours later. They changed policy (much like when they eliminated pin-trading when they saw what insanity that brought) and now you can't camp out until about an hour before.

There's a reason they took parking off of the cheaper passes and have scaled back the available options while skyrocketing the price. They've figured out that Annual Passes are either way too good of a deal (even at $600-1000) or that even at the high prices they simply tax the resort infrastructure too much. I think it's a lot of both actually.

The parking was removed for one reason: too many people in SoCa drive to the resort by themselves. They lack parking (again, a management/ops issue). ... The APs are not a deal in any form. There are just lots of people with plenty of money in SoCal ...
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Of course, what really should have happened was the mythical third gate with the Star Wars product and, possibly, Marvel as well. But ... Disney and Iger are very risk averse and opening another park is always a risk.
True, but they still have work to do on the existing parks. Never mind the question of location.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Not sure how solid a plan it was but before the Disneyland Hotel remodel there was talk of tearing both towers down and building new.

That talk went away with the redo.

There has been plenty of talk about the PPH too. And Disney seems very slow on making a decision, although bulldozing it for a new one wouldn't cause the issues that the DLH would have.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Wow, apparently any posts that hint that WDW visitor numbers might be heading in anything less than a magical direction get deleted straight away... For a moment I had to check the URL to see I wasn't on the Disney Parks Blog.

I guess that's how things are these days. Nothing to see hear anyone, everything is great, Disney has never seen so many guests, the rides are in the best condition they've ever been! Anyone telling you otherwise is just working for the dishonest fake theme parks!

That better?

Sorry, your post vanished. Did you get political. With the current clown in the WH and the insanity of his first few months, the mods are likely looking for anything to go bye-bye. I only give this a 50-50 chance of survival because I called the Prez a clown, which to be fair is about the nicest thing I have ever said about him!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
For me it's actually the other way around. I visit here to enjoy what little good is left at Disney. I am actually trying to avoid Current Events because it angers me so much.

Anger isn't bad if you channel it for good (either for you or a greater good). If you simply allow it to eat you up, then it will create all sorts of physical and emotional issues. But, yes, current events are just one bad thing after another ... and if you have any humanity in you, then it is bound to mess with your being.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
To be fair cuteness is far more acceptable in Japan compared to the West. Then again I been fascinated with Japanese culture for a few years now. Which explains why Disney characters like Mari,Chip and Dale, and Stitch are insanely popular over there.

I was reading this article that touches on this topic.

http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/why-do-the-japanese-love-cute-things

I'll have to give that a read this week. ... I have heard an interesting theory from friends who live there and are American but have Japanese spouses and, in some cases, children. They say the kawaii (literally cute) culture in Japan has sprouted up from the bloodlust the Japanese showed in WWII and prior. They say there is a fear that if given the power to wreak havoc on the world again, that Japan just might go down that road. That the kawaii movement is sorta a weird psychological-societal response to Japan's shameful past. It might sound crazy, but I have found that the theory has many believers.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Anger isn't bad if you channel it for good (either for you or a greater good). If you simply allow it to eat you up, then it will create all sorts of physical and emotional issues. But, yes, current events are just one bad thing after another ... and if you have any humanity in you, then it is bound to mess with your being.
Yeah, I am feeling deflated. I have a lot of personal issues going on plus what's going on with Disney and the Country. Everything literally feels hopeless.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Sorry, your post vanished. Did you get political. With the current clown in the WH and the insanity of his first few months, the mods are likely looking for anything to go bye-bye. I only give this a 50-50 chance of survival because I called the Prez a clown, which to be fair is about the nicest thing I have ever said about him!

The post was about a slump in tourism because of events you just eluded to. Which isn't very political too me, but what do I know? All I know is I am hearing a lot of people are boycotting travel to the States: ex. school groups, work conferences, and leisure.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
On the topic of DVC and Disneyland, I had thought that the new hotel being built at DL was going to have DVC as part of that. Or was that just incorrect internet guessing?

If not, then I would think that one again, off again Tomorrow Tower for the Disneyland Hotel could easily be a DVC addition.

That hasn't been announced and I don't think it is happening, no.

I also don't believe you'll see any towers added to DLH.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
True, but they still have work to do on the existing parks. Never mind the question of location.

Not the point. The reality is that SW in DL is a horrible decision. And Marvel in DCA isn't much better. ... This IP, if it is as popular and evergreen as The Weatherman believes, would have worked well in its own park -- and taken some of the strain off the existing two. The reality now is a third gate in Anaheim is about as likely as a fifth gate in Orlando (that means it will never happen).
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Yeah, I am feeling deflated. I have a lot of personal issues going on plus what's going on with Disney and the Country. Everything literally feels hopeless.

It's not. For the country, for the company or for you. ... Life often sucks and I can't even watch the news these days without wanting to scream, cry, hide and buy lots of guns at various times. But it will get better. Goodness and love do win over evil and hatred in the end. I learned that by watching Disney animated films at a young age!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The post was about a slump in tourism because of events you just eluded to. Which isn't very political too me, but what do I know? All I know is I am hearing a lot of people are boycotting travel to the States: ex. school groups, work conferences, and leisure.

That is true. I read a story in the LA Times about that over the weekend. You can't have laws that change depending on what day you are traveling or who you encounter at the border. Regardless of what anyone here thinks about our recent coup, people around the world are afraid of this country and its leadership and that isn't a good thing for a multitude of reasons, including business. Other countries have beaches, outlet malls, theme parks (even Disney ones) and historic and natural sites. Many have more stable governments as well.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Not the point. The reality is that SW in DL is a horrible decision. And Marvel in DCA isn't much better. ... This IP, if it is as popular and evergreen as The Weatherman believes, would have worked well in its own park -- and taken some of the strain off the existing two. The reality now is a third gate in Anaheim is about as likely as a fifth gate in Orlando (that means it will never happen).
I agree though SWL (while i don't like the placement) is not a deal-breaker for me. What is happening at DCA is, however
 

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