A Spirited Perfect Ten

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
I'd argue that Avengers is a franchise and Iron Man and Guardian of the Galaxy and Hulk etc. Perfectly acceptable to have longer story arcs etc. But what Kevin, Ike and Co are doing is making the entire Marvel BRAND into a franchise. Want to enjoy and appreciate one film? Well, you need to see the other 19 in order to fully do so.

It's incredibly ballsy. And all it will take is two or three films that under-perform before Burbank interferes.

I get what they're doing. They're putting out comic book films that basically follow the comic book way of storytelling. DC is no different ... with it's Infinite Crisis' series where you have to buy 211 books in 56 titles in order to read the whole story. It was sorta the thing that first really turned me off comics ... and it really is a ballsy way of film making.
Forgot to post this yesterday evening.
image.jpg

Bob "See that man over there?"
Michael "Yeah, but I don't recognize him. Who is he?"
Bob "That's Ike Perlmutter. I'm scarred he's going to murder me in my sleep."
Michael "That's what you get for buying Marvel."
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
Considering how slow Disney is to do anything, the thought of what WDW's future would look like if WWoHP wasn't the homerun it was is terrifying.

Surely it would look pretty much the same? The last E-ticket was in 2006, before Potter. Other than New Fantasyland, not much has happened since then, so I think we'd barely notice the difference had Potter never happened.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think it was up around (maybe above) an hour. And I'm absolutely a fanboi who will purchase the bluray (GTFO with the DVD).

That's scary. An hour. On the cutting room floor?!?!
No wonder these budgets are insane. No way should you ever have to trim an hour. Sounds like they had way too much material to begin with.
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
The reason the changes were prompted at DCA was because of poor guest feedback and despite it being the only true Fantasyland style dark ride in DCA it is a walk on at all except the busiest of times.

Those are hardly the signs of a great attraction.

The idea that Mermaid can be judged in the same league as Ride-and-Go-Seek or Pooh's Hunny Hunt is just laughable beyond words.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Since a lot of speculation is going on right now in this thread, let me throw out one more bit of it. If ever there was a "park" with unrealized potential it is Universal Hollywood. I predict that Potter opening there next year will be like a dam breaking for that park, with increases in both attendance and revenue much bigger than even what was seen in Florida.

TDA is VERY worried about Potter. It's why you'll hear about Star Wars and Marvel additions this year. DLR is generally not (except for some BRAND addicts) the place you would ever spend a week's vacation. Most people will spend 2-4 days as part of a week-two week long Southern California vacation. Disney needs to keep fresh product flowing out there because it doesn't have the captive audience it has in O-Town. I haven't been there since 2007 when I was still splitting my time between coasts, and am looking forward to returning this summer.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Neither was disappointing, unless they're looked at from a fanboy perspective. Both are good creative projects. New Fantasyland didn't alleviate capacity issues as it was designed to do, but from a creative standpoint it's a good project.

I think you can look at the design flaws of BoG (not to mention the lousy food) or the very crappy LM ride and the still remaining 1988-era tents and say, that from a creative standpoint, that Not New Anymore Fantasyland was not successful or ''good'' from a creative viewpoint.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I think you can look at the design flaws of BoG (not to mention the lousy food) or the very crappy LM ride and the still remaining 1988-era tents and say, that from a creative standpoint, that Not New Anymore Fantasyland was not successful or ''good'' from a creative viewpoint.
Many confuse ornament with detail and detail with quality. New Fantasyland has plenty of ornament.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Surely it would look pretty much the same? The last E-ticket was in 2006, before Potter. Other than New Fantasyland, not much has happened since then, so I think we'd barely notice the difference had Potter never happened.
Probably true.

The one argument that can be made is that WDW has allowed Universal to pay for new attractions that are essentially the driver of increased visits to Orlando since Potter opened. They are basically playing the reverse role and leaching off of someone else's success. If Universal wasn't drawing in tourists as well the entire Orlando market may have suffered forcing Disney to do something to spark interest.

I don't think Disney has or will any time soon attempt to "compete" head to head with Universal in the fanboy urban legend theme park war. While these companies definitely compete they have a symbiotic relationship as well. The bad blood exists more in the fan community than the board room.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
At this point I've concluded that if you can't appreciate Little Mermaid for what it is, you're just far too jaded for me to ever take seriously. It's a superb dark ride (better now with the blacklighting) with one of the best queues in the whole of Orlando (and one of WDW's best queues ever to be honest) and a great meet & greet. It's not Harry Potter, and it's not Transformers. It's a friggen omni-mover dark ride that clocks in at 6 minutes (longer, by the way, than all but 2 of Universals entire line up) with some superior animatronics and is adored by it's demographic (CHILDREN). It's also a major people-eater.

I don't understand how people don't see it as literally one of the quintessential Disney dark rides, it is a perfect fit for MK/New Fantasyland. I'd be upset if anything else took it's place because I don't want nothing but e-tickets and show stoppers- especially in Fantasyland which has never had rides of that sort in the first place.

Newbie poster. First posts are all in this thread. And they're provocative.

So shocked.

Mermaid is crap. Ask any of the WDI 'old guard' or any of the UNI 'new guard' ... it's a very weak attraction when it could have been ''a superb dark ride'' like say ET at UNI or any dark ride at DL. I love how spinning starfish (an effect most fanbois here could recreate in their garages) now count as AAs or simple figures that only have one or two movements. It is perfect for MK and its typical Guests today. Plastic, tacky and cheap.

Now, they could have gone with Tony Baxter's DLP concept (which was also originally slated for MK in mid-90s) or something totally new and different. They didn't. They went the Walmart route. It shows.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
While you guys have been having another UNI v Disney fight, Soup and Salad Sandra put something interesting in her article on the Comcast quarterly report.

So what's so important about that 15,000 hotel rooms number? It's higher than UNI's previously stated goal of 10,000 rooms seen here.

I seem to recall telling people here last year that UNI would likely be having 15K rooms by the time all was said and done. I hate being right almost all the time.
 

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
As in USF's attendance for 2014 was only 8million? Or that the attendance went up by 8 million?

If it's the first, you're low by quite a bit. If it's the latter...that's crazy.

Ohh I forgot it was 7.1 million in 2013!!

2014
USF - 9 million
IOA - 8.5 million

Is that a reasonable guess?
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Yes, the UNI earnings results were impressive (as expected) and it certainly is refreshing to hear Steve Burke's candid comments about how important the growth business of theme parks/resorts are to the parent company. I'm not good with numbers (well, except adding two plus two and getting that Disney will not be seeing the Marvel characters in its FL parks for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time) so that's why I just defer to @ParentsOf4's remarkable analysis to take them apart.
Uni's Theme Parks numbers were phenomenal; we hashed them over earlier on this thread.

There were a few interesting tidbits said about the Theme Parks during the call. For example, prior to the Q&A:

But the biggest highlight of all may have been at the theme parks where among other drivers the continued enormous success of our new Harry Potter attractions in Orlando contribute to over 50% growth in operating cash flow in the first quarter. Notably to experience the full breadth of attractions in both our parks in Orlando, Universal Studios Florida and Islands of Adventure, nearly 80% of visitors chose the higher value Park to Park tickets. Additionally, sales of season passes were at an all-time high.​

And later:

Our Theme Parks had another remarkable quarter as revenue grew 33.7% to $651 million and operating cash flow increased 54.6% to $263 million reflecting higher guest attendance and per capita spending at both parks. Orlando is experiencing tremendous growth from the continued momentum of Harry Potter Diagon Alley which opened last summer.

The increases in attendance per capita and park to park it ticket sales have accelerated Orlando's operating cash flow growth. At the same time, the Despicable Me attraction continues to drive healthy attendance in per capita increases at the Hollywood Park.​

I looked. You have to go all the way back to 1986 to see that kind of jump in operating cash flow at Disney. I wasn't the only one scratching my head trying to recall a time when these kind of increases were last reported. Jessica Reif Cohen of Bank of America asked the following:

The Theme Park numbers I don't think we have every seen theme park at any Company grow that quickly. So if you could just maybe highlight what your five-year plan is for the attractions and hotel rooms?​

NBCUniversal CEO Steve Burke's lengthy reply was:

So if you go back to four years ago when we bought the Company, the Theme Parks were making about $400 million a year and right after we showed up Blackstone, we had a buy-sell agreement -- a buy-sell situation with Blackstone and we ended up buying out their 50% of the Orlando parks for about $1 billion.​

If you move forward to today, this year the Theme Parks should do over $1.3 billion in operating cash flow. We are only one-third of the way through the year so we will see how the rest of the year goes but they are off to a very, very good start. And we see the Theme Parks now as a very big and very important part of our Company. They are about 20%, 20% to 25% of our operating cash flow and we see many, many years ahead of us of growth.​

Our strategy is very simple. We are going to invest in great attractions, probably about one a year at each of our major theme park locations. We think we have a fantastic creative group led by Mark Woodbury, who they are coming up with really cutting edge, great, very modern terrific attractions. And then we also think in Orlando that we are significantly under hotel-ed. Guests who stay on property tend to stay -- their length of stay in the theme parks increases by a day and we did a study that showed us that we can have many more hotel rooms than we have. So we recently opened a lot of hotel rooms but you will see a very significant hotel build out in Orlando over the next five or so years and we think if you look at our Company holistically with Illumination led by Chris Meledandri making great animated films that can travel to the Theme Parks and all the other things that come out of our movie studio that we have the ability holistically to create great IP and see that IP go into our Theme Parks and help drive the future.​

So Theme Parks I think when we first showed up were something that came with the rest of the Company and now they are right at the core of what we are all about and we think provide a tremendous growth opportunity.
I respect Burke but I think he's wrong about the typical "attraction per year" pattern most amusement parks back into. Recent amusement park history has shown that guests want more; they want immersive and well-themed lands based on popular IPs. Universal is not going to see the kind of growth they're experiencing right now if they fall into the usual "one per year" trap.

Attendance does seem to be booming at Universal right now. When asked what impact the strong dollar was having on international business, Burke added:

As it relates to Orlando, we have really seen no impact from the strong dollar. It is very difficult to tell because our attendance is up so dramatically. When your attendance is up 25%, it is basically coming from everywhere including international and we have very, very strong Latin American business and European businesses.

So we lap ourselves with Harry Potter this summer and would anticipate that the overage or the increase in attendance to decline but we don't think that international is going to be the kind of drag that is noticeable because we are on such a run and we are growing the overall business and a piece of that is international. But a big piece of that is local, domestic and faraway domestic as well.​

Of course he's right; growth is going to slow this summer but with the uncertain opening surrounding Diagon Alley, Universal still will have one and maybe two great quarters left before returning to normal levels.

Universal needs to come up with a strategy to turn its Orlando resort into a one-stop vacation destination. I just can't imagine that more hotels and a water park are going to do it. Yes, Universal is attracting a lot of folks right now but, when the day it done, it's still no more than a 2-day stop for most, meaning WDW continues to benefit from Uni's investments.
 
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doctornick

Well-Known Member
I don't think that's fair. It's been pretty clear from the first movie that introduced the Infinity Stones that we'd see one per movie, then an Infinity Gauntlet War movie to wrap things up once all the stones had been discovered.

After Infinity War, I think they'll begin a fresh arc and reboot a lot to make for a good jumping on point for new audiences... I can't see them spreading this one out forever.

I suspect they'll have some hints for Phase 4 within Phase 3, especially since some of the Phase 3 movies will almost certainly have sequels. But I tend to agree that they'll probably try to make Phase 4 have less baggage so people can jump in there without extensive knowledge of the previous films. Things are obviously building towards a big conclusion with Infinity War.

As an aside, I think that Ant Man will be a great movie for people who haven't watched all the films. Like GotG, it looks like it will be fairly independent of the rest of the MCU (though the characters will certainly integrate over time).
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Newbie poster. First posts are all in this thread. And they're provocative.

So shocked.

Mermaid is crap. Ask any of the WDI 'old guard' or any of the UNI 'new guard' ... it's a very weak attraction when it could have been ''a superb dark ride'' like say ET at UNI or any dark ride at DL. I love how spinning starfish (an effect most fanbois here could recreate in their garages) now count as AAs or simple figures that only have one or two movements. It is perfect for MK and its typical Guests today. Plastic, tacky and cheap.

Now, they could have gone with Tony Baxter's DLP concept (which was also originally slated for MK in mid-90s) or something totally new and different. They didn't. They went the Walmart route. It shows.
It also happens to be one of the best examples of how WDI's obsession with "story" is crippling their rides.
 

mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
I agree "If Kong does all of them, it's a win." I'm not convinced Kong will do all of them.
Kong will increase attendance at IOA for sure... even if its only 100,000-400,000 people.

Profits/merchandise? Even if the increase is 1-5%, Comcast would be satisfied considering Kong isn't the same as Potter, Simpsons or even Transformers.

I'd say 2017 will be the year both Universal Orlando parks reach 9.5 million to 10 million in attendance. Especially if Universal can get the MSHI revamp and the new F&F addition done in the same year.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It also happens to be one of the best examples of how WDI's obsession with "story" is crippling their rides.
It was branding, not story, that killed the ride. The emphasis is on the aspects that have been repackaged and resold for decades. It was a ride designed for Consumer Products as though there was nothing else.
 
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mahnamahna101

Well-Known Member
While you guys have been having another UNI v Disney fight, Soup and Salad Sandra put something interesting in her article on the Comcast quarterly report.

So what's so important about that 15,000 hotel rooms number? It's higher than UNI's previously stated goal of 10,000 rooms seen here.
Por ejemplo

UNI and their cable overlords in Philadelphia have decided to go with the more aggressive long term goal of 15K rooms. If this pans out, it could mean that Disney not only loses 2-3 days, or maybe even 4 days once the water park and third gate open, to the UNI parks, but potentially those very profitable nights at Disney hotels shift to UNI as well. THAT scares Disney above all else.
15,000?

Unless Universal maximizes space in its current parks, finishes the water-park and expands it, adds a full-blown 3rd gate and finishes refining CityWalk, I don't see how they could sustain that many.
 

twebber55

Well-Known Member
Uni's Theme Parks numbers were phenomenal; we hashed them over earlier on this thread.

There were a few interesting tidbits said about the Theme Parks during the call. For example, prior to the Q&A:

But the biggest highlight of all may have been at the theme parks where among other drivers the continued enormous success of our new Harry Potter attractions in Orlando contribute to over 50% growth in operating cash flow in the first quarter. Notably to experience the full breadth of attractions in both our parks in Orlando, Universal Studios Florida and Islands of Adventure, nearly 80% of visitors chose the higher value Park to Park tickets. Additionally, sales of season passes were at an all-time high.​

And later:

Our Theme Parks had another remarkable quarter as revenue grew 33.7% to $651 million and operating cash flow increased 54.6% to $263 million reflecting higher guest attendance and per capita spending at both parks. Orlando is experiencing tremendous growth from the continued momentum of Harry Potter Diagon Alley which opened last summer.

The increases in attendance per capita and park to park it ticket sales have accelerated Orlando's operating cash flow growth. At the same time, the Despicable Me attraction continues to drive healthy attendance in per capita increases at the Hollywood Park.​

I looked. You have to go all the way back to 1986 to see that kind of jump in operating cash flow at Disney. I wasn't the only one scratching my head trying to recall a time when these kind of increases were last reported. Jessica Reif Cohen of Bank of America asked the following:

The Theme Park numbers I don't think we have every seen theme park at any Company grow that quickly. So if you could just maybe highlight what your five-year plan is for the attractions and hotel rooms?​

NBCUniversal CEO Steve Burke's lengthy reply was:

So if you go back to four years ago when we bought the Company, the Theme Parks were making about $400 million a year and right after we showed up Blackstone, we had a buy-sell agreement -- a buy-sell situation with Blackstone and we ended up buying out their 50% of the Orlando parks for about $1 billion.​

If you move forward to today, this year the Theme Parks should do over $1.3 billion in operating cash flow. We are only one-third of the way through the year so we will see how the rest of the year goes but they are off to a very, very good start. And we see the Theme Parks now as a very big and very important part of our Company. They are about 20%, 20% to 25% of our operating cash flow and we see many, many years ahead of us of growth.​

Our strategy is very simple. We are going to invest in great attractions, probably about one a year at each of our major theme park locations. We think we have a fantastic creative group led by Mark Woodbury, who they are coming up with really cutting edge, great, very modern terrific attractions. And then we also think in Orlando that we are significantly under hotel-ed. Guests who stay on property tend to stay -- their length of stay in the theme parks increases by a day and we did a study that showed us that we can have many more hotel rooms than we have. So we recently opened a lot of hotel rooms but you will see a very significant hotel build out in Orlando over the next five or so years and we think if you look at our Company holistically with Illumination led by Chris Meledandri making great animated films that can travel to the Theme Parks and all the other things that come out of our movie studio that we have the ability holistically to create great IP and see that IP go into our Theme Parks and help drive the future.​

So Theme Parks I think when we first showed up were something that came with the rest of the Company and now they are right at the core of what we are all about and we think provide a tremendous growth opportunity.
I respect Burke but I think he's wrong about the typical "attraction per year" pattern most amusement parks back into. Recent amusement park history has shown that guests want more; they want immersive and well-themed lands based on popular IPs. Universal is not going to see the kind of growth they're experiencing right now if they fall into the usual "one per year" trap.

Attendance does seem to be booming at Universal right now. When asked what impact the strong dollar was having on international business, Burke added:

As it relates to Orlando, we have really seen no impact from the strong dollar. It is very difficult to tell because our attendance is up so dramatically. When your attendance is up 25%, it is basically coming from everywhere including international and we have very, very strong Latin American business and European businesses.

So we lap ourselves with Harry Potter this summer and would anticipate that the overage or the increase in attendance to decline but we don't think that international is going to be the kind of drag that is noticeable because we are on such a run and we are growing the overall business and a piece of that is international. But a big piece of that is local, domestic and faraway domestic as well.​

Of course he's right; growth is going to slow this summer but with the uncertain opening surrounding Diagon Alley, Universal still will have one and maybe two great quarters left before returning to normal levels.

Universal needs to come up with a strategy to turn its Orlando resort into a one-stop vacation destination. I just can't imagine that more hotels and a water park are going to do it. Yes, Universal is attracting a lot of folks right now but, when the day it done, it's still no more than a 2-day stop for most, meaning WDW continues to benefit from Uni's investments.
agree
gotta eventually get a third gate
 

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