A Spirited Perfect Ten

[Smiddimizer]

You're right. You win. How can I even further discuss this when you've resorted to bringing usernames into the discussion. I thank you for 100% proving my point.

You know what's hilarious? I didn't even notice your username.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

What they need is for the Studios/DAK/Epcot to draw and hold people. Of course, they havent been....

Epcot holds people just fine, but their attendance figures don't back it up. They're screwed by the fact that only "first click" counts as attendance and they're heavily park-hopped.

 

[wdisney9000]

and I don't care what they come up with for a night time show, it will never compete with Wishes or Illuminations.

But why would that be? Because Disney still had people like Don Dorsey and others who came from a different era and actually knew how to create a narrative rather than re-tell a story? Because Disney currently operates on the "good enough" standard? Because Imagineers probly know that any quality idea they have will be budgeted to death? None of the above? All of the above? Not trying to be a smart azz, just honestly asking your opinion.

 

[dizneycrazy09]

Don't you know you're supposed to criticize people who don't have the exact same desires as you? I don't think dessert parties are worth it, which is why I criticize Tomorrowland Terrace for hosting one. How dumb. What a bunch of idiots.

How silly of me to forget this...

 

[asianway]

Epcot holds people just fine, but their attendance figures don't back it up. They're screwed by the fact that only "first click" counts as attendance and they're heavily park-hopped.

First click is only used internally, the numbers on the reports from TEA are all clicks(not provided by Disney, they likely have an ops mole feeding them daily attendance figures)

 

[WildcatDen]

I had a long response to this in mind, but I think '74 said it better than I would have.

Lee. To think this is one thing, to write it down, is quite another.

 

[Cesar R M]

No one spends over 15 minutes in the Hub during the day when there is nothing going on anyway.

ahem..

the hub as the dance parties
the wish along mickey show in the castle.
and the parades. in the day

so, there is almost always something going on.

Yea, well that's what success does to you. I believe that the old Disney creed had safety listed before show.

success.. or greed?

 

[Cesar R M]

All of this HUB concrete wasteland banter is seriously starting to bring me down. I've been a faithful observer of these forums for about a decade now, and I've only just recently starting posting. After paying attention to the conversations over the last few weeks, it seems like the Doom and Gloomers are either growing in number or simply louder than ever. Personally, I come onto these forums for news and rumors and talk of what rides and attractions may bring joy to myself and my family in the future. Never in the ten years that I've been a member of this website have I seen such negativity and pessimism towards something that, at it's core, is meant to bring people happiness and joy. I understand that this a forum, and people should and could say whatever they want, but when is enough enough? We ALL get it. TONS of you have made yourselves loud and clear; you are upset with what WDW has become, and you want everyone to share in your opinion of what the parks SHOULD be. I wish WDW was different, but that doesn't mean I still don't love being there and the wonderful memories it has given me with my family. I sometimes feel like I'm an uneducated fool for even thinking that I enjoy WDW in 2015, and that's unfortunate. For the people that have clearly shown (and in some cases flat out said) that they HATE WDW now, why do you come to a WDW fan website and spew negativity? It just seems like anyone on here who likes ANYTHING that happens in WDW is immediately critisized for liking something 2015 WDW does. I just hope that people can stop making others' opinions about a new ride, show, or idea seem lesser because they may not be the same as their own. Apologies if this is off topic or preachy, but it's something I needed to say. Remember, 95% of us are here as a community because of our shared passion...

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Well, if you feel like this forum is way too pessimist, perhaps you should just stick to the official blog of Disney.
Where any hint of criticism is severely censored.
Or open your own forum that fits your tastes.

A forum will always gather to all spectrums, not specifically someone's.

 

[asianway]

Well, if you feel like this forum is way too pessimist, perhaps you should just stick to the official blog of Disney.
Where any hint of criticism is severely censored.
Or open your own forum that fits your tastes.

A forum will always gather to all spectrums, not specifically someone's.

Spectrum is the best word to use with this group

 

[andysol]

success.. or greed?

Disney is a business

 

[Cesar R M]

Sadly, this seems to have happened everywhere. I recall the same type malls as a kid, although not as nice as the one you describe. Still however, they had water fountains, foliage, and very nice holiday decor. Great places to visit, spend the day, spend some money. Now I avoid them like the plague.

its funny how they ended killing themselves by making these changes.. becoming generic and utilitarian.. now people just buy when they need..or even buy online.

The places and malls no longer seem to invite the guests to go around and see whats new.

It matters because the original Hub screened and obscured and acted as a buffer to the other lands. The new one, as you said, is a quasi extension of the castle and Fantasyland. To accept that that is ok is to disregard one of the main functions of what the Hub is meant to do.

The "who cares what it was" argument is the same logic that tries to explain why Nemo and the Three Caballeros work at Epcot, or why generic shops are a better use of space than the clubs of Pleasure Island, or why the new lobby at the Poly is so great.

As Spirit said, this is one of those things a person either "gets" or doesn't get because it comes down to the way you (generic, not directly at you @Goofyernmost) see things.

whoever claims that the caballeros work at Mexico in Epcot, really needs to be punched. This is coming from a Mexican.
The whole thing is facepalm inducing.

 

[dizneycrazy09]

Well, if you feel like this forum is way too pessimist, perhaps you should just stick to the official blog of Disney.
Where any hint of criticism is severely censored.
Or open your own forum that fits your tastes.

A forum will always gather to all spectrums, not specifically someone's.

I don't think the overall forum is too pessimistic. I only wish that some people didn't see the glass half empty literally all of the time, and I don't think you can disagree with me on that one.

 

[Cesar R M]

Disney is a business

 

[asianway]

The same people who will sit in a grocery store with a calculator to figure out which toilet paper is the best price per square, are the same ones who endlessly give WDW a free pass on price increases and experience cutting.

Simple economics is more is preferred to less yet somehow Disney has wired their brains to give them a free pass.

Amazing phenomenon

 

[wdwmagic]

All of this HUB concrete wasteland banter is seriously starting to bring me down. I've been a faithful observer of these forums for about a decade now, and I've only just recently starting posting. After paying attention to the conversations over the last few weeks, it seems like the Doom and Gloomers are either growing in number or simply louder than ever. Personally, I come onto these forums for news and rumors and talk of what rides and attractions may bring joy to myself and my family in the future. Never in the ten years that I've been a member of this website have I seen such negativity and pessimism towards something that, at it's core, is meant to bring people happiness and joy. I understand that this a forum, and people should and could say whatever they want, but when is enough enough? We ALL get it. TONS of you have made yourselves loud and clear; you are upset with what WDW has become, and you want everyone to share in your opinion of what the parks SHOULD be. I wish WDW was different, but that doesn't mean I still don't love being there and the wonderful memories it has given me with my family. I sometimes feel like I'm an uneducated fool for even thinking that I enjoy WDW in 2015, and that's unfortunate. For the people that have clearly shown (and in some cases flat out said) that they HATE WDW now, why do you come to a WDW fan website and spew negativity? It just seems like anyone on here who likes ANYTHING that happens in WDW is immediately critisized for liking something 2015 WDW does. I just hope that people can stop making others' opinions about a new ride, show, or idea seem lesser because they may not be the same as their own. Apologies if this is off topic or preachy, but it's something I needed to say. Remember, 95% of us are here as a community because of our shared passion...

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

You may not agree with a lot of the comments in this thread, and that is fine. But, be aware there are thousands of other threads on the forum, many of those are extremely positive in nature, and of course, you are always welcome to start your own, and contribute any positive comments you feel fit.

 

[Cesar R M]

Don't you know you're supposed to criticize people who don't have the exact same desires as you? I don't think dessert parties are worth it, which is why I criticize Tomorrowland Terrace for hosting one. How dumb. What a bunch of idiots.

I honestly think the extended hours at Epcot is the most silly cash grabs ever..

 

[LuvtheGoof]

But why would that be? Because Disney still had people like Don Dorsey and others who came from a different era and actually knew how to create a narrative rather than re-tell a story? Because Disney currently operates on the "good enough" standard? Because Imagineers probly know that any quality idea they have will be budgeted to death? None of the above? All of the above? Not trying to be a smart azz, just honestly asking your opinion.

Part of it is that it is MK and EPCOT. They are the main draws for WDW. Even if they come up with a fireworks show for HS that is better, I just don't think that it will draw that many people away from either of the other two parks. Part of it is also nostalgia for the current shows. Illuminations is my favorite by far, but I really love Wishes as well. Lots of people that visited prior to kids watched and fell in love with Wishes, and they want their kids to experience it as well. There hasn't really been a consistent fireworks show at HS, so it hasn't become necessary in most people's eyes. Even if there were a nightly show, I'm not sure we would go every trip. I do realize that they will both be replaced at some point, and I'm hoping that they can come up with a compelling show for both of them.

I grew up with the Main Street Electrical Parade, but preferred Spectromagic. I definitely disliked Disney for getting rid of my favorite night time parade. We don't know yet what will be coming next, but I can hope that it will be a worthwhile replacement. If not, then we won't go to see it. It's that simple, and there is nothing we can do about it, so I'm not going to go ranting that Disney sucks if they don't do exactly what I think they should do, or what they may have done in the past. It's pointless.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

That seems like every Disney restaurant. Thats been the trend and part of why I stopped eating at WDW restaurants and let Tables in Wonderland expire.

Again, that's just as much on you as it is them. We will never let a restaurant rush us. Please always remember to tell your server that you would like to take your time. Heck, just order your drinks and appetizer at first, not everything all at once. Then wait to order your entree when you are ready. It's not like they can say no to you if you want to wait. We have also done that many times to slow down a meal. Works like a charm.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

Since the tide has turned and the Hub refurb is the thought-du-jour, I'll share my 2 cents for the what seems like a millionth time.

Yes, Hub 3.0 is going to be more aesthetically pleasing that Hub 2.0 when it's completed (when being the key word as it's still not completed... coming up on the 1.5 year mark for concrete and wall city at the heart of the most Magical Kingdom on Earth).

No, it won't ever look as good as the original Hub. I have no idea why moderate sized trees like Anaheim's wouldn't have been a happy compromise for the show vs. The Show.

The real question that everyone keeps tap dancing around not discussing is the WHY Hub 3.0 got funding? It certainly wasn't to make it more aesthetically pleasing, that's for sure. The real answer to this question is indicative of the real issues facing the resort as a whole.

For MM+ to "be a success", it's vile offspring FP+ has to work also.

FP+ is the perception of value. For it to have this perception, there has to be FP+ reservation time slots available in the system for people to select. Even after adding FP+ to virtually everything, there is still difficulties in steering crowds where WDW wants them to go - away from the "popular" things.

You mean, bring "joy and happiness" to a handful of people dim enough to reserve a spot for fireworks?

People "dim enough" to reserve a spot for fireworks. Again, the perception of value comes up. FP+ is all smoke and mirrors. If every guest was well versed in the art of waging war on the Mouse when on property at WDW, then everyone would know that they should book all of the low capacity/popular attractions over high capacity/less popular ones and not waste them on attractions that would never need a FP to begin with. Since MM+ and FP+ (and it's billions of capital invested) aren't bringing any new ride vehicles into the equation, the resort needed to get other "perceived" value into the pool of available time slots. Thus, the "dim people" may perceive value in picking up a FP+ for this and they are none-the-wiser that a smarter choice could have/should have been made. Even dim people would select Wishes over Stitch.

Those attending the Church of MM+, may I get a Praise You+ to those poor souls sacrificing themselves to Wishes FP+ so ye may be blessed with a better chance at a 7DMT FP.

But wait... wouldn't all that mean that having the Hub refurb funded by the need to get more FP+ pasture in the system be a good thing?

I meant WDW as a whole, and this response is the EXACT nonsense I was talking about. Why criticize people for reserving a spot for fireworks? If that's what they want to do, why does it matter to you?

Ah... what does it matter?

There in lay the real heart of what the last several pages of discussion have all been about.

If you care about WDW, and I think it's safe to say that anyone reading this discussion let alone making and account and posting to it - does care, then those that do care should be smart enough to know that the more decisions that are made like Hub 3.0 the more we all lose at the resort.

If you choose to accept Hub 3.0 as a necessary evil because of the state of the resort, then you are going to be doomed to a resort where the quality of all the parks will suffer. WDW finding more ways to cram people into prime nighttime spectacular viewing locations at MK will not fix the overall issue with keeping guests at DHS, AK, or EPCOT. If people still continue to flock to the Castle each night in lieu of the other options on property, then the future will be more and more open spaces. After all, concrete and artificial grass are cheaper than building attractions that do bring actual capacity to the table and not just empty spaces filled with perceived value.

As long as people keep accepting less when paying more... nothing will change.

Don't be the WDW fan that accepts the day when FP+ is added to Aloha Isle as a good thing. "I didn't get a FP+ for Splash Mountain; but, it was worth it for my Dole Whip".

 

[RSoxNo1]

This!

Nearly every recent change at the Magic Kingdom has been done with the goal of cramming ever more people into the park. Second ferry dock, new bus loop, Hub changes, Main Street bypass, tree and bench removals; even the wider paths and stroller parking areas of Newish Fantasyland.

All of it has lessened the overall experience of being in the park. Details, landscaping, quiet spots and quaint features have all been lost in the name of operations and efficiency.

I mentioned this in another thread some time ago and I think it bears repeating: given its current transportation and infrastructure status, the Magic Kingdom is at full theoretical capacity (really, it reached that point about 5 million guests ago). Cramming 18 million people into that place when it was originally designed for about 10-12 million is ridiculous. And the guest experience, along with the park itself, is suffering.

The Magic Kingdom is the most popular theme park in the world. It has yet to be damaged by building elsewhere, be it at Epcot, Hollywood Studios or the Animal Kingdom, or be it at Universal. It needs things like the Main Street USA bypass to be done right. It needs capacity added to every land in the park without things that would be attendance drivers. And it needs $2 invested into each of the other parks for every $1 spent in the Magic Kingdom.

For Disney it's easier to add more walk ways to the Magic Kingdom than it is to address the real issue. Disney World is a very top heavy resort. The Magic Kingdom is 100% the driver of that resort. The other three parks fail to compete with it as a driver of attendance. Realistically, Hollywood Studios has the best chance. Epcot really should be a counter balance to the Magic Kingdom, but even after Frozen and Soarin' it's going to be 2-4 attractions short. The Animal Kingdom's additions will certainly help, but not to the same extent that Hollywood Studios additions will help.

Disney has never succeeded in taking crowds away from the Magic Kingdom, but they also have been neglecting the other parks. A serious commitment to the other parks is necessary and is the only hope in addressing the greater issue.