A Spirited Perfect Ten

space42

Well-Known Member
I don't think the overall forum is too pessimistic. I only wish that some people didn't see the glass half empty literally all of the time, and I don't think you can disagree with me on that one.


I only wish Disney gave us something optimistic to talk about ;)

I've said it before... it's interesting experience - to be a loyal customer for over 40 years and slowly feel that your business is no longer wanted (or needed). I want to be WOWed again. I'm waiting for that same feeling I had going on Splash Mountain just after it opened (same goes for Big Thunder, Alien Encounter, Original Imagination, World of Motion, Horizons, SSE, TOT). When does that happen? Star Wars land in 2020?
 
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spacemt354

Chili's
This logic is backwards. I like it, and I wish it were the case, but it's not the reality. New attractions make the park more crowded, not less. Rather than "supporting visitors," they draw additional guests. The additional crowds for Mine Train, for example, far exceed the additional capacity that Mine Train provides, making everything else more crowded. The only way to support guests with new attractions is to intentionally build crappy attractions that will absorb people but not attract them.

This logic seems to hold for the Magic Kingdom, but I'm not sure how it applies to the other parks.
Or build attractions with better hourly capacity.

That being said I tend to agree with this notion, and don't understand the argument for MK needing another E-ticket. And pointing at the lack of one since 1992 as proof that Disney doesn't build.

It's flawed in my view because by giving the MK another E-ticket you'd just be driving up attendance at the MK, and leaving the other 3 parks behind. What they need is more attractions at the other parks. That's where the need is, because while more attractions will equal more guests at the resort as a whole, they will be more evenly dispersed throughout the days.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Or build attractions with better hourly capacity.

That being said I tend to agree with this notion, and don't understand the argument for MK needing another E-ticket. And pointing at the lack of one since 1992 as proof that Disney doesn't build.

It's flawed in my view because by giving the MK another E-ticket you'd just be driving up attendance at the MK, and leaving the other 3 parks behind. What they need is more attractions at the other parks. That's where the need is, because while more attractions will equal more guests at the resort as a whole, they will be more evenly dispersed throughout the days.
Exactly correct. The key to more attendance at WDW might actually be less attendance (or at least more even attendance) at the Magic Kingdom. It's the very reason I wasn't as upset as many folks were that New Fantasyland didn't have a super headliner.

Ignoring all creative criticisms, this is why Frozen in the World Showcase is absolutely brilliant from an operational perspective. It's not being built in Norway for lack of a more appropriate option (technically Fantasyland), it's going to Norway because Fantasyland is already a nightmare and little girls don't care about Norwegian culture.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I only wish Disney gave us something optimistic to talk about ;)

I've said it before... it's interesting experience - to be a loyal customer for over 40 years and slowly feel that your business is no longer wanted (or needed). I want to be WOWed again. I'm waiting for that same feeling I had going on Splash Mountain just after it opened (same goes for Big Thunder, Alien Encounter, Original Imagination, World of Motion, Horizons, SSE, TOT). When does that happen? Star Wars land in 2020?

That's my key problem I started as a WDW fan as a teen in the 80''s back then the place was amazing and Disney was always adding something be it as simple as a menu item, people who have just started visiting the park have no idea what it was like then, fast forward to today it's now about what has Disney taken AWAY this visit.

A key example is Ohana they raised the price and subtracted one of the courses and they rush you, when I'm presented with the bill before the dessert course it's clearly about how many seatings can Ohana achieve vs giving the guests a good experience.

It's clear Disney no longer wants the repeat customer because they see the differences between visits and that trend is not a good one from a guest centric point of view.

What the MK needs is significant new capacity without increasing the admission count this means expansion beyond the berm. It will never happen though because all TWDC cares about is cramming more people into too small a space
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
First click is only used internally, the numbers on the reports from TEA are all clicks(not provided by Disney, they likely have an ops mole feeding them daily attendance figures)
It is probably far more than that. The numbers are not compiled by the TEA. That work is done by AECOM, a massive multinational conglomerate that purchased Buzz Price's company and remains one of the big names in economic and feasibility analysis. Not just for theme parks, but other larger scale develops around the world.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Since the tide has turned and the Hub refurb is the thought-du-jour, I'll share my 2 cents for the what seems like a millionth time.

Yes, Hub 3.0 is going to be more aesthetically pleasing that Hub 2.0 when it's completed (when being the key word as it's still not completed... coming up on the 1.5 year mark for concrete and wall city at the heart of the most Magical Kingdom on Earth).

No, it won't ever look as good as the original Hub. I have no idea why moderate sized trees like Anaheim's wouldn't have been a happy compromise for the show vs. The Show.

The real question that everyone keeps tap dancing around not discussing is the WHY Hub 3.0 got funding? It certainly wasn't to make it more aesthetically pleasing, that's for sure. The real answer to this question is indicative of the real issues facing the resort as a whole.

For MM+ to "be a success", it's vile offspring FP+ has to work also.

FP+ is the perception of value. For it to have this perception, there has to be FP+ reservation time slots available in the system for people to select. Even after adding FP+ to virtually everything, there is still difficulties in steering crowds where WDW wants them to go - away from the "popular" things.



People "dim enough" to reserve a spot for fireworks. Again, the perception of value comes up. FP+ is all smoke and mirrors. If every guest was well versed in the art of waging war on the Mouse when on property at WDW, then everyone would know that they should book all of the low capacity/popular attractions over high capacity/less popular ones and not waste them on attractions that would never need a FP to begin with. Since MM+ and FP+ (and it's billions of capital invested) aren't bringing any new ride vehicles into the equation, the resort needed to get other "perceived" value into the pool of available time slots. Thus, the "dim people" may perceive value in picking up a FP+ for this and they are none-the-wiser that a smarter choice could have/should have been made. Even dim people would select Wishes over Stitch.

Those attending the Church of MM+, may I get a Praise You+ to those poor souls sacrificing themselves to Wishes FP+ so ye may be blessed with a better chance at a 7DMT FP.

But wait... wouldn't all that mean that having the Hub refurb funded by the need to get more FP+ pasture in the system be a good thing?



Ah... what does it matter?

There in lay the real heart of what the last several pages of discussion have all been about.

If you care about WDW, and I think it's safe to say that anyone reading this discussion let alone making and account and posting to it - does care, then those that do care should be smart enough to know that the more decisions that are made like Hub 3.0 the more we all lose at the resort.

If you choose to accept Hub 3.0 as a necessary evil because of the state of the resort, then you are going to be doomed to a resort where the quality of all the parks will suffer. WDW finding more ways to cram people into prime nighttime spectacular viewing locations at MK will not fix the overall issue with keeping guests at DHS, AK, or EPCOT. If people still continue to flock to the Castle each night in lieu of the other options on property, then the future will be more and more open spaces. After all, concrete and artificial grass are cheaper than building attractions that do bring actual capacity to the table and not just empty spaces filled with perceived value.

As long as people keep accepting less when paying more... nothing will change.

Don't be the WDW fan that accepts the day when FP+ is added to Aloha Isle as a good thing. "I didn't get a FP+ for Splash Mountain; but, it was worth it for my Dole Whip".
Fantastic post.
Should be required reading.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
First click is only used internally, the numbers on the reports from TEA are all clicks(not provided by Disney, they likely have an ops mole feeding them daily attendance figures)
Ticketing and attendance is what I do for a living. They no doubt have internal reporting that will give them a breakdown of any statistic they need, multiple visits, times, ticket type forced entry invalid tickets, all the way down to the specific turnstile.

That information will never be publicized.
 
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Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
It matters because the original Hub screened and obscured and acted as a buffer to the other lands. The new one, as you said, is a quasi extension of the castle and Fantasyland. To accept that that is ok is to disregard one of the main functions of what the Hub is meant to do.

The "who cares what it was" argument is the same logic that tries to explain why Nemo and the Three Caballeros work at Epcot, or why generic shops are a better use of space than the clubs of Pleasure Island, or why the new lobby at the Poly is so great.

As Spirit said, this is one of those things a person either "gets" or doesn't get because it comes down to the way you (generic, not directly at you @Goofyernmost) see things.
It's no more visible then it ever was. I don't know where you folks come up with this stuff. You could always see the other lands from the hub. They weren't trying to hide anything.

Although I appreciate your attempting to not direct this at me, it still is, isn't it? You know what though, there is a better then even chance that it is Spirit that "doesn't get it". For all his knowledge stuff like this ends up being one persons perspective as opposed to someone else's. It is also his opinion about what it was supposed to be for, it is not necessarily the actuality. As I stated one can like it or not like it, that is our right as human beings. The right we don't have is to decide who is wrong, because none of us were there or in the decision making circle at the time. That is one of the problems with this board or any board, people will not accept that no one is right in these discussions. All any of us are doing is expressing our opinion. Some opinion will inevitably make more sense then others and it is up to us to make the determination which thought works the best for us. Not to ridicule or attempt to belittle someone that may have a different outlook. Following the leader is not the best way for humans to live their lives.
 

stevehousse

Well-Known Member
I meant WDW as a whole, and this response is the EXACT nonsense I was talking about. Why criticize people for reserving a spot for fireworks? If that's what they want to do, why does it matter to you? :banghead:

This...I think sometimes people forget that not every one has the same views as themselves, but it's nothing to get upset about. Who cares what people FP! LOL it just sounds stupid even saying it. Everyone has different tastes and that's probably one of the only good things about MM+ is that you can get fps for the rides YOU want. Just because the ride or show may sound stupid to you, it doesn't to others. I will happily admit that I have a FP for Journey into Imagination with Figment! Does that sound silly, to some yes. Do I know the ride was so much more unique and better when I was a kid, yes. But it's one of my kids favorite.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
The same people who will sit in a grocery store with a calculator to figure out which toilet paper is the best price per square, are the same ones who endlessly give WDW a free pass on price increases and experience cutting.

Simple economics is more is preferred to less yet somehow Disney has wired their brains to give them a free pass.

Amazing phenomenon
Pixie dust is a strong drug.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
As long as people keep accepting less when paying more... nothing will change.

Most WDW fans have a relatively low expectations for what constitues a successful trip. So long as they get to go on their favourite ride, eat their favourite treat and get their key family photo, they don't care about the little stuff like the hub makeover, price increases or what goes on at the Poly. Heck, I'm betting most wouldn't be too upset if the Poly was leveled altogether and replaced with Art of Animation 2.0 since it wouldn't "affect" them and it's still something Disney® related.

It's why you're far more likely to see complaints about Pirates of the Caribbean closing for the summer or the hat coming down than any kind of major design or operational change.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
That's my key problem I started as a WDW fan as a teen in the 80''s back then the place was amazing and Disney was always adding something be it as simple as a menu item, people who have just started visiting the park have no idea what it was like then, fast forward to today it's now about what has Disney taken AWAY this visit.

A key example is Ohana they raised the price and subtracted one of the courses and they rush you, when I'm presented with the bill before the dessert course it's clearly about how many seatings can Ohana achieve vs giving the guests a good experience.

It's clear Disney no longer wants the repeat customer because they see the differences between visits and that trend is not a good one from a guest centric point of view.

What the MK needs is significant new capacity without increasing the admission count this means expansion beyond the berm. It will never happen though because all TWDC cares about is cramming more people into too small a space
You must have had a really d*wad server.
When I went, it was packed but noone rushed me.
infact they kept asking if I would like more.
Then they offered the desert and I HAD to ask for my bill.

Note that I went right before President's day weekend.
but then, like I said before.. I didnt had a perfect day either (really undercooked beef)
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
And safety has to mean paving everything and removing trees? I don't think so.

"Safety" could just as easily mean capping capacity to prevent monster crowds and hazardous, unenjoyable conditions. It can mean not cramming people into a park's central area for shows.

For me, the old, beautiful, park-like hub was more important than any castle show (on that horrible stage), parade or projection show. And fastpasses for fireworks...good lord...:facepalm:
So correct by exclusion of people to enjoy it's intended purpose so we can include foliage that was only there for show anyway? Got any idea who gets to chose who gets excluded and who gets to enjoy the offerings?

And there we come to the root of the situation... "For me, the old, beautiful, park like hub was more important". I'm sure it was to you, but, priorities change and those priorities do not always line up with our personal desires. And, please, paving everything and removing trees did not happen to anywhere near the extent that you guys are trying to convey. Yes, it opened it up, gave more space for people to enjoy, added fountains and grass, some of which is fake, (not sure why that matters unless one is planning to graze), designed it more like a REAL palace garden for the betterment of the entertaining process and the reality of that is all that is needed to know that in spite of the loss of a couple of trees, it is a much nicer, user friendly location now.
 

stlphil

Well-Known Member
I don't think the overall forum is too pessimistic. I only wish that some people didn't see the glass half empty literally all of the time, and I don't think you can disagree with me on that one.
Sorry but this is just bunk (as is usually the case when someone says "I don't think you can disagree with me...").

If you look at my posts regarding WDW you will see that they are (mostly) all negative. I guess that makes me a hater, or a doom-and-gloomer.

But, if you look at my posts regarding DL you will see that they are (mostly) all positive. Same company, same type of enterprise, and most importantly, same person- me.

The negativity that WDW receives on this forum in recent years is richly deserved. And my personal negativity is not born out of hate, but out of desire to see Disney to live up to their own ideals as they once practiced them at WDW. Because it was the manifestation of those ideals that gave me the passion about the place that keeps me here.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Sorry but this is just bunk (as is usually the case when someone says "I don't think you can disagree with me...").

If you look at my posts regarding WDW you will see that they are (mostly) all negative. I guess that makes me a hater, or a doom-and-gloomer.

But, if you look at my posts regarding DL you will see that they are (mostly) all positive. Same company, same type of enterprise, and most importantly, same person- me.

The negativity that WDW receives on this forum in recent years is richly deserved. And my personal negativity is not born out of hate, but out of desire to see Disney to live up to their own ideals as they once practiced them at WDW. Because it was the manifestation of those ideals that gave me the passion about the place that keeps me here.
They've also gone to call people like us trolls as well
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
So correct by exclusion of people to enjoy it's intended purpose so we can include foliage that was only there for show anyway? Got any idea who gets to chose who gets excluded and who gets to enjoy the offerings?

And there we come to the root of the situation... "For me, the old, beautiful, park like hub was more important". I'm sure it was to you, but, priorities change and those priorities do not always line up with our personal desires. And, please, paving everything and removing trees did not happen to anywhere near the extent that you guys are trying to convey. Yes, it opened it up, gave more space for people to enjoy, added fountains and grass, some of which is fake, (not sure why that matters unless one is planning to graze), designed it more like a REAL palace garden for the betterment of the entertaining process and the reality of that is all that is needed to know that in spite of the loss of a couple of trees, it is a much nicer, user friendly location now.

So the thoughts on the AstroTurf.....

I've been burned by AstroTurf in August/September before. I forget which sporting event it was, but I kneeled down on it in the middle of the afternoon and stood right up in a hurry.

It retains heat badly. It's like ice when it's wet. Plus there are the cancer links.

That's where I'm at on the grass. I'll check it out myself but I'm apprehensive
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
As for the hub? I miss the trees. I miss the shade. I miss benches. I miss being able to get out of the brutal sun.

In three of the four parks, they become nothing but concrete wastelands have endless open space where you dying of the heat.

I think shade is very very important when it comes to having average daily attendance of 50,000 people and an average temperature over 90°.
 

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