A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[bclane]

Some Wakanda concept art...

 

[tissandtully]

One Halloween-themed note: don't know how many of you are aware of the amazing job HKDL does annually at holding a non-upcharge (only WDW and DLR charge extra for the holiday, although DL has the decency to offer overlays to two major E-Tickets for all Guests) celebration. And one most definitely aimed at tweens and older. This isn't the WDW mandate that MNSSHP (and every single offering) not offend special needs six-year-olds' Mommy Bloggers!

They actually have things that can scare you and generally offer multiple entertainment offerings, including temporary haunted houses, which while short on gore (how many zombies sucking on fake arms with fake blood squirting does one need, UNI?) are long on frights, theming and storytelling.

This year, they are doing something I think is borderline genius (in other words, common sense). They are offering a haunted house based on what scares you from Disney films, including Pinocchio, Hercules, Monsters Inc., Alice in Wonderland (Tim Burton films) and Beauty and the Beast. One reason these films work so well is they touch us emotionally and part of that is by scaring us (however temporarily so we can have the happy ending). Kids (and likely some fanbois) have nightmares after seeing some of these films. And that is OK ... but finally mining them in an attraction is just great. (Better than the infamous Villains Mountain blue sky deal or the never ever even getting that close fifth gate dedicated to Disney baddies.)

I really hope they pull this off because it is as obvious as say UNI using their classic horror/monster films of the 30s, 40s and 50s for HHNs (oh, they are still opting for gorefests based on current IP?) It amazes me that Disney has never attempted this.

Of course, I can recall four times in the last 20 years that execs with sense and a tiny bit of vision have tried to push through a more adult themed Halloween event at Disney's XXXXL Third Gate MAGICLand Park (really, is that list that three people from here sent me, legit?!?! They are so bereft of ideas and of understanding what that park will be that they can't come up with anything?!) only to be shot down (quite cruelly the second time, I might add).

Anyway, just in case you were interested.

Pretty sure those names aren't actually considered or a way to pick the name they really want, which as we all know is how WDW surveys works. I'm guessing someone is trying to make a case for Disney Beyond.

 

[flynnibus]

My guesses: Marvel attractions are being held up / potentially cancelled because...

1) It turns out that no matter how often they put Iron Man in front of Captain America in the Chinese market, the polling (and merch sales) indicates that Marvel is perceived to push an American agenda. If costs of developing big Marvel attractions won't be spread out to include the Chinese parks, Disney is perhaps considering them to be not worth the investment.

2) It turns out that the Marvel experiences WDI has come up with are all very one note (aside from wacky GotG). While Star Wars has the potential to create immersive environments, Marvel's 'real world + military bases' settings are earning yawns in the boardroom powerpoint presentations. (And the lackluster performance of Summer of Heroes might be evidence of the public's disinterest as well.)

3) Perhaps Disney is developing concerns over attractions depicting 'real' places like New York turned into warzones. Considering the terrorism, violence, and international tensions in the real world, the board may prefer to invest in pure escapism ...but at the same time, after pouring billions into Pandora & Star Wars, the prospect of only building Marvel's cosmic settings like Asgard isn't sitting well either.

4) Some crazy legal thing (other than UNI) is slowing everything down. Perhaps too many Marvel attraction proposals are similar to the ones that were going to be built in Dubai, and Disney would be a lawsuit target by whatever themed entertainment agencies worked on those.

5) Silliest of all - perhaps the specter of One Disney is returning with some edict that if attractions cannot be developed for cloning at ALL the parks, they will be disregarded. And the UNI contract preventing WDW Marvel attractions puts the kibosh on everybody else.

Or #6 - Someone argues they are already expanding enough... and the attendance/revenue stats don't need 'yet more' spending to get them to target.

 

[brb1006]

One Halloween-themed note: don't know how many of you are aware of the amazing job HKDL does annually at holding a non-upcharge (only WDW and DLR charge extra for the holiday, although DL has the decency to offer overlays to two major E-Tickets for all Guests) celebration. And one most definitely aimed at tweens and older. This isn't the WDW mandate that MNSSHP (and every single offering) not offend special needs six-year-olds' Mommy Bloggers!

They actually have things that can scare you and generally offer multiple entertainment offerings, including temporary haunted houses, which while short on gore (how many zombies sucking on fake arms with fake blood squirting does one need, UNI?) are long on frights, theming and storytelling.

This year, they are doing something I think is borderline genius (in other words, common sense). They are offering a haunted house based on what scares you from Disney films, including Pinocchio, Hercules, Monsters Inc., Alice in Wonderland (Tim Burton films) and Beauty and the Beast. One reason these films work so well is they touch us emotionally and part of that is by scaring us (however temporarily so we can have the happy ending). Kids (and likely some fanbois) have nightmares after seeing some of these films. And that is OK ... but finally mining them in an attraction is just great. (Better than the infamous Villains Mountain blue sky deal or the never ever even getting that close fifth gate dedicated to Disney baddies.)

I really hope they pull this off because it is as obvious as say UNI using their classic horror/monster films of the 30s, 40s and 50s for HHNs (oh, they are still opting for gorefests based on current IP?) It amazes me that Disney has never attempted this.

Of course, I can recall four times in the last 20 years that execs with sense and a tiny bit of vision have tried to push through a more adult themed Halloween event at Disney's XXXXL Third Gate MAGICLand Park (really, is that list that three people from here sent me, legit?!?! They are so bereft of ideas and of understanding what that park will be that they can't come up with anything?!) only to be shot down (quite cruelly the second time, I might add).

Anyway, just in case you were interested.

They have a scare house called "The Nightmare Experiment" that features various Disney/Pixar characters and actually works including the Tim Burton Mad Hatter.

 

[ford91exploder]

My guesses: Marvel attractions are being held up / potentially cancelled because...

1) It turns out that no matter how often they put Iron Man in front of Captain America in the Chinese market, the polling (and merch sales) indicates that Marvel is perceived to push an American agenda. If costs of developing big Marvel attractions won't be spread out to include the Chinese parks, Disney is perhaps considering them to be not worth the investment.

2) It turns out that the Marvel experiences WDI has come up with are all very one note (aside from wacky GotG). While Star Wars has the potential to create immersive environments, Marvel's 'real world + military bases' settings are earning yawns in the boardroom powerpoint presentations. (And the lackluster performance of Summer of Heroes might be evidence of the public's disinterest as well.)

3) Perhaps Disney is developing concerns over attractions depicting 'real' places like New York turned into warzones. Considering the terrorism, violence, and international tensions in the real world, the board may prefer to invest in pure escapism ...but at the same time, after pouring billions into Pandora & Star Wars, the prospect of only building Marvel's cosmic settings like Asgard isn't sitting well either.

4) Some crazy legal thing (other than UNI) is slowing everything down. Perhaps too many Marvel attraction proposals are similar to the ones that were going to be built in Dubai, and Disney would be a lawsuit target by whatever themed entertainment agencies worked on those.

5) Silliest of all - perhaps the specter of One Disney is returning with some edict that if attractions cannot be developed for cloning at ALL the parks, they will be disregarded. And the UNI contract preventing WDW Marvel attractions puts the kibosh on everybody else.

Definitely #1 is a factor, but my money is on #5 given TWDC' miserly nature towards park spending

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

I know that doesn't say much. What can I do? I can tell you that Marvel attractions that have been budgeted and started are absolutely happening (things like GotG: Peter Quill's Amazing 1983 Day at WDW where his Mommy, since she was dying of cancer, let him order the steak at the Poly's Tangaroa Terrace and ... HKDL's Tears of a Clown: Buzz Lightyear Gets Removed By Marvel Ants and John Lasseter Goes on a Drunken Binge and Trashes the best suite at the HKDL Hotel). But all those other things ... well, remember at various points of time (the 1990s Disney Decade ... all those 2007-08 era WDW projects etc.) when things were said to be happening? I wouldn't bet your life savings on them. Again, I am attempting to determine what is fact, what is possible and ... what is entertaining fiction.

Thank the gods.

 

[ford91exploder]

I don't know if it's really as big a danger as you think. I think the business model at WDW focuses primarily on less frequent visitors.

What created our lifetime affinity for the 'Disney' experience generally it was the whole WOW experience at the parks as a child or young adult.

That experience built the Disney brand, Without that experience what is Disney other than an overpriced tourist trap.

Before the only words for a Disney experience was 'WOW'

Now too often we hear from 'Normals' Too Hot/Crowded/Expensive, it was nothing special and we will not be going back. Not the words Disney fans want to hear not even me because this puts a dark cloud on the future of the parks.

How many 'Normals' even know Stat Wars and Marvel are Disney brands???

Where is the investment in the 'Disney' brand, As its being strip mined for cash now.

 

[ford91exploder]

Or #6 - Someone argues they are already expanding enough... and the attendance/revenue stats don't need 'yet more' spending to get them to target.

This also extremely plausible as we all know disney will latch onto any opportunity to NOT spend money on P&R

 

[Ag11gani]

Sorry to bother you @WDW1974, but I

They have a scare house called "The Nightmare Experiment" that features various Disney/Pixar characters and actually works including the Tim Burton Mad Hatter.

That was last years, this year they are doing a sequel to it which was what Spirit was talking about.

 

[brb1006]

That was last years, this year they are doing a sequel to it which was what Spirit was talking about.

I'm aware but I'm showing the previous one for those that never seen or heard of it.

 

[Ag11gani]

I'm aware but I'm showing the previous one for those that never seen or heard of it.

I misunderstood your post as it was in present tense. But I could only wish for something like that at WDW. If it wasn't for the idiots who can't read or ignores signs we could acctualy have something.

 

[ford91exploder]

Anecdotally, families with young children increasingly view the parks as one and done. These are folks who make really good money and know what their vacation dollars can get them elsewhere.

It's harder to get hooked because it's not as magical, regardless of frame of reference.

Disney thinks SEO and its social media shills are a replacement for the great word of mouth due to top quality experiences which built the brand.

Its ironic in a way because while millennials dont value things as much as previous generations they do value top quality experiences. And as millennials move into the prime disney window Disney decides to degrade the quality of experiences.

Genius sheer genius...

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Disney needs to give up on putting Marvel in the US parks. Marvel is better suited to the UNI parks and nothing Disney has proposed and will build matches what UNI did almost 20 years ago with MSHI and Spider Man.

Now China... Marvel is China's Star Wars. That's where the focus needs to be.

 

[matt9112]

I wonder about this.

It's not merely the higher prices; it's the increased crowds. It's one thing to pay a lot for a vacation and be treated well. It's quite another to wait in long lines time and time again.

Today there are parents taking their kids because the parents went when they were young. To the parents, going to WDW is a rite of passage. However, with crowds growing and Disney not adding corresponding capacity, the WDW experience has been downgraded.

From 2002 to 2016, Disney reported a cumulative attendance increase of 49% at its domestic theme parks. Theme park capacity has nowhere near kept pace with that increase. (Just imagine 49% more rides in 2016 than 2002!) The adults going today are having a radically different experience than they did a generation ago when they were children.

Are today's children going to remember WDW with the same fondness that their parents did when the parks were one-third less crowded? What affect will this have on WDW's long-term financial success?

this x100
the experience has gone down across the board more or less.
look they want over 100 bucks a night alot of times to stay at the pop? are you insane?

 

[GoofGoof]

What created our lifetime affinity for the 'Disney' experience generally it was the whole WOW experience at the parks as a child or young adult.

That experience built the Disney brand, Without that experience what is Disney other than an overpriced tourist trap.

Before the only words for a Disney experience was 'WOW'

Now too often we hear from 'Normals' Too Hot/Crowded/Expensive, it was nothing special and we will not be going back. Not the words Disney fans want to hear not even me because this puts a dark cloud on the future of the parks.

How many 'Normals' even know Stat Wars and Marvel are Disney brands???

Where is the investment in the 'Disney' brand, As its being strip mined for cash now.

It's possible to have a "wow" factor and still not focus your business strategy on frequent visitors. Look at professional sports as a perfect example. When I was younger I knew many families who had full or partial season tickets for the big 4 professional sports in Philly. It was possible for a blue collar middle class family to go to many games a year. Flash forward to today and I can barely afford to bring my kids to a handful of games a year. It's mostly just corporations that own season tickets these days. The leagues have all gone from a focus on a hard core small group of fans attending a large quantity of games to a larger pool of fans attending only a few games. It's not because the NFL or NBA are lesser products or lack a wow factor. It's exactly the opposite and they are printing money.

You fail to realize that Disney parks are still wildly popular. The normals don't care whether Star Wars or Marvel or Avatar are owned by Disney. They just want fun stuff to do. I've never heard anyone question that Universal has Harry Potter attractions when it's a WB movie. If you think the pure Disney brands are losing popularity check out how long the lines are to meet the classic characters and how long the lines are for Peter Pan or 7 Dwarft rides. Since WDW opened there have been plenty of people that described it as too hot/crowded/expensive. This is nothing new. It's an urban legend that everyone who went to WDW in the 80s loved it unconditionally. There were people who didn't like it then for a lot of the same reasons. It's been hot in FL most of the year since 1971. Can't blame that on Iger.

To bring the professional sports analogy around to WDW it's possible that in the not so distant future it will be much more rare for someone to visit WDW multiple times a year just like it's less common for an average person to go to the bulk of a teams home games in any sport. The frequent, regular visitors may be the ones impacted the most but the normals as you call them won't really be impacted a whole lot.

 

[ford91exploder]

It's possible to have a "wow" factor and still not focus your business strategy on frequent visitors. Look at professional sports as a perfect example. When I was younger I knew many families who had full or partial season tickets for the big 4 professional sports in Philly. It was possible for a blue collar middle class family to go to many games a year. Flash forward to today and I can barely afford to bring my kids to a handful of games a year. It's mostly just corporations that own season tickets these days. The leagues have all gone from a focus on a hard core small group of fans attending a large quantity of games to a larger pool of fans attending only a few games. It's not because the NFL or NBA are lesser products or lack a wow factor. It's exactly the opposite and they are printing money.

You fail to realize that Disney parks are still wildly popular. The normals don't care whether Star Wars or Marvel or Avatar are owned by Disney. They just want fun stuff to do. I've never heard anyone question that Universal has Harry Potter attractions when it's a WB movie. If you think the pure Disney brands are losing popularity check out how long the lines are to meet the classic characters and how long the lines are for Peter Pan or 7 Dwarft rides. Since WDW opened there have been plenty of people that described it as too hot/crowded/expensive. This is nothing new. It's an urban legend that everyone who went to WDW in the 80s loved it unconditionally. There were people who didn't like it then for a lot of the same reasons. It's been hot in FL most of the year since 1971. Can't blame that on Iger.

To bring the professional sports analogy around to WDW it's possible that in the not so distant future it will be much more rare for someone to visit WDW multiple times a year just like it's less common for an average person to go to the bulk of a teams home games in any sport. The frequent, regular visitors may be the ones impacted the most but the normals as you call them won't really be impacted a whole lot.

No I don't fail to recognize that the Disney parks are wildly popular now. I believe the reason is more driven by inertia driven by nostalgia rather than genuine excitement for the product being offered TODAY.

The X factor thats missing is the parks pre 'bad Eisner/Iger' era had something that made people want to return over and over again.

Now it's more 'ive been to disney dont know what the big deal is about the place'. I hear this from too many first timers and i dont think is a good thing

 

[tirian]

Do you mind. I'm proud to have no fashion sense.

At which point do you pull a Kanye and create your own sense of fashion?

 

[the.dreamfinder]

There's a word that's been creeping around the discussion here for the past couple days that hasn't appeared yet; value.

The Disney theme parks used to give guests value for their money.

Here's how Walt Disney Productions saw value.

 

[Kman101]

For as many of us who don't find the same value, WDW isn't exactly hurting. So someone still finds value in it.

 

[Hakunamatata]

For as many of us who don't find the same value, WDW isn't exactly hurting. So someone still finds value in it.

I think they are fondly referred to as "rubes" in these threads.