A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[englanddg]

One thing I’ve seen constantly brought up about Leia is that whatever smart remark she had there was an equal dynamic between her and Han Solo. They were both strong willed characters that wouldn’t take anything from anybody.

It was her strong will that actually made Han rethink his life, which became his arc. She was literally the only character with a will strong enough to shame him into doing the right thing. Even Luke couldn't do that...he had to bribe Han.

Of course, that development got tossed to the wind and he became a deadbeat dad, running around the galaxy in his old hot rod ship with his lifelong drinking buddy, and probably not even paying galactic child support to boot!

Edgy...no, I'm sorry "groundbreaking storytelling"... (rolls eyes)

But this goes back to the "EU vs new Canon" thing I mentioned earlier. When they come out and say, for example, that L3-37 (and, lets not get into what a terrible pun/idea that name was) is the first character to care about droid rights and want a revolution. EU fans say...um, no...that was IG-88.

They say, look at these strong female leads, Star Wars has never had those before. Fans point to Leia, Mara Jade, Kreia (KOTOR), Ahsoka, Amidala, Satine, Sabine, Hera...ooh, man, the list goes on. Some of which still live in the D-Canon, even. So, what are they talking about?

So, it's not even that they are "breaking new ground"...so...what are they on about?

It's...silly. And sad.

 

[Jones14]

I don't think Star Wars is having a problem with making relatable characters. I do think they're having a problem with figuring out which characters are more relatable/interesting ahead of time, and giving them screentime accordingly.

Example: Poe was supposed to die in TFA, and JJ changed his mind last minute to keep him. Fast forward to Last Jedi, and Poe now is the most interesting of the new trio, but was given less time to shine than Finn, who turned out to be less interesting onscreen than he probably seemed in the script. This isn't anyone's fault, per se, and Boyega certainly does a great job, but it's indicative of the fact that you don't know who's gonna resonate with the audience until its out there, and since half of the movies feature completely different casts than the other two, it's hard for them to find the groove.

You can bet that IX will have a lot more Poe (partially because Carrie Fisher is gone, and he literally has to take her place) and a little less Rose/Finn because of how we responded to them, but Rose was a new character and Finn was being eaten up by audiences after TFA, so there was no time to learn that lesson beforehand.

After seeing Solo, it seems like they're getting a better grasp on it (I'm ready for a Qi'ra movie without even a mention of Han now), but it's a slow process, and they've (necessarily) introduced so many characters that a lot of them are gonna underwhelm until we (and they) can look at the whole picture. Some of them will continue to underwhelm, even when we get to see a lot of them (Dooku, Ewoks, Finn in TLJ), and some will underwhelm because we don't get enough (Grievous, Darth Maul, Boba Fett) to make us feel justified in investing in them. But that's how franchise movies work; it's a constant juggling of characters to figure out who the audience will want to see in THIS one, and it changes with every film that comes out.

 

[Mike S]

I don't think Star Wars is having a problem with making relatable characters. I do think they're having a problem with figuring out which characters are more relatable/interesting ahead of time, and giving them screentime accordingly.

Example: Poe was supposed to die in TFA, and JJ changed his mind last minute to keep him. Fast forward to Last Jedi, and Poe now is the most interesting of the new trio, but was given less time to shine than Finn, who turned out to be less interesting onscreen than he probably seemed in the script. This isn't anyone's fault, per se, and Boyega certainly does a great job, but it's indicative of the fact that you don't know who's gonna resonate with the audience until its out there, and since half of the movies feature completely different casts than the other two, it's hard for them to find the groove.

You can bet that IX will have a lot more Poe (partially because Carrie Fisher is gone, and he literally has to take her place) and a little less Rose/Finn because of how we responded to them, but Rose was a new character and Finn was being eaten up by audiences after TFA, so there was no time to learn that lesson beforehand.

After seeing Solo, it seems like they're getting a better grasp on it (I'm ready for a Qi'ra movie without even a mention of Han now), but it's a slow process, and they've (necessarily) introduced so many characters that a lot of them are gonna underwhelm until we (and they) can look at the whole picture. Some of them will continue to underwhelm, even when we get to see a lot of them (Dooku, Ewoks, Finn in TLJ), and some will underwhelm because we don't get enough (Grievous, Darth Maul, Boba Fett) to make us feel justified in investing in them. But that's how franchise movies work; it's a constant juggling of characters to figure out who the audience will want to see in THIS one, and it changes with every film that comes out.

Finn should’ve died at the end of TLJ. It would’ve been a good end for the guy who always abandoned whoever who was with to end up sacrificing himself like that. But no, instead we have Rose coming in to save him and giving her BS “save what we love instead of destroying what we hate” line. Not to mention the fact they were literally feet away from the AT-ATs and miraculously were able to walk all the way back to the base without getting killed. Literally, what, the, hell.

 

[Quinnmac000]

Finn should’ve died at the end of TLJ. It would’ve been a good end for the guy who always abandoned whoever who was with to end up sacrificing himself like that. But no, instead we have Rose coming in to save him and giving her BS “save what we love instead of destroying what we hate” line. Not to mention the fact they were literally feet away from the AT-ATs and miraculously were able to walk all the way back to the base without getting killed. Literally, what, the, hell.

Rose was to pander to the Asian populace and for diversity which didn't work. Not because the character was necessary to the story.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Kennedy just doesn't get it. I'm not even going to go into "the force is female" and "little girls just don't identify with Luke Skywalker" comments.

I won't even comment about the belief movies should be about escapism and not about pushing political agendas.

Let's just go right to Film making 101 - Character development. Here's a few.

Taking some one like Finn - who many speculated when the first trailers for TFA were released - may be the new Jedi hero. They've essentially turned him into a lovable, incompetent, former storm-trooper janitor, who needs a strong woman (first Rey and then Rose Tico) to find his moral compass. Then after the cliffhanger in TFA, you introduce him in TLJ by having him fall off a table and spraying bodily fluid while wearing that ridiculous looking medical suit.

Then you have Poe. Someone who has some charisma, is a rebel, and is the closest character to an early Han Solo. The Poe character had real potential - sadly it was wasted. In TLJ, Poe is basically punished and sent to his room by a purple haired Laura Dern, who's character served absolutely no purpose in the movie other than to reprimand Poe.

What did they do to Lando? Did any of them actually watch the original triology? So I'm to believe Lando - the "ladies man" of the galaxy -- when he was younger -- wanted to get jiggy with droids? Really?

Can't even bring myself to comment on L3-37. It's that ridiculous.

Seems like Disney doesn't learn. They allowed ESPN to be infiltrated with political views and agendas. And how'd that work out for them? Nobody wants that with sports.

Now they let it creep into their movies - and expect a different result?

This is not about "Star Wars Fatigue". Marvel released Infinity War - 10. Weeks. After Black Panther. Marvel has released 19 movies in 10 years. This has nothing to do with fatigue - it has to do with the people at the top not knowing (or not caring) what they are doing.

 

[Princess Leia]

... in other news, I hope Disney never has a problem like Cedar Point had today:
http://www.cleveland19.com/story/38291826/power-outage-at-cedar-point-leaves-riders-in-sun-for-hours
Power's restored now (apparently a car ran into a utility pole), but it's the hottest day of the year up here in NW Ohio, and I can't imagine being stuck on the Millennium Force, or any other ride, for more than an hour in 90+ degree heat.

 

[AEfx]

One thing I’ve seen constantly brought up about Leia is that whatever smart remark she had there was an equal dynamic between her and Han Solo. They were both strong willed characters that wouldn’t take anything from anybody.

And at least with Han and Leia they had time to freaking breathe and had a believable relationship. There are several years in between ANH and ESB. Same can even be said for Anakin/Padme between Episodes II and III. It is just so ludicrous that all these characters in the Sequel Trilogy have these supposedly deep relationships yet they have known each other for mere days.

The only way they could explain Crylo and MaryRay having such an intense connection was "Snoke tricked them" - I mean...it just makes no freaking sense whatsoever. Now that you can sit and watch TFA and TLJ together, it is mind blowing how terribly they go together. Just look at the scene in TFA where Crylo goes ballistic when he finds out "the girl on Jakku" escaped with Finn. A girl he supposedly has never met and is "no one"...just one of the many ways that TFA and TLJ seem like they take place in alternate universes.

 

[englanddg]

And at least with Han and Leia they had time to freaking breathe and had a believable relationship. There are several years in between ANH and ESB. Same can even be said for Anakin/Padme between Episodes II and III. It is just so ludicrous that all these characters in the Sequel Trilogy have these supposedly deep relationships yet they have known each other for mere days.

The only way they could explain Crylo and MaryRay having such an intense connection was "Snoke tricked them" - I mean...it just makes no freaking sense whatsoever. Now that you can sit and watch TFA and TLJ together, it is mind blowing how terribly they go together. Just look at the scene in TFA where Crylo goes ballistic when he finds out "the girl on Jakku" escaped with Finn. A girl he supposedly has never met and is "no one"...just one of the many ways that TFA and TLJ seem like they take place in alternate universes.

Obviously their deep bond is due to his Fabio like physique.

I mean, that makes as much sense as anything else the film presents.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't think Star Wars is having a problem with making relatable characters. I do think they're having a problem with figuring out which characters are more relatable/interesting ahead of time, and giving them screentime accordingly.

What you describe is the same broken process of chasing marketing boxes. Characters with a strong story are relatable. Sometimes that means lots of screen time and other times it means only a bit, but the story should be the driving force, not “People will like [character] so that means x minutes of screen time in each act.”

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

What I find most ironic is that Disney's media arm wants to force down our throats messages of social injustice.........yet their parks division is busy refining a class system.

Who the heck is steering this ship?

 

[englanddg]

What I find most ironic is that Disney's media arm wants to force down our throats messages of social injustice.........yet their parks division is busy refining a class system.

Who the heck is steering this ship?

Heh, not to mention the anti-capitalist messaging. Seriously, Disney...YOU are gonna lecture on that topic?

Further, they really should tread lightly about animal abuse themes as well...considering Animal Kingdom. The more extreme position on Animal Rights has been that any form of captivity is a form of slavery. It's not even all that new an idea, in those circles.

A silly side story, but as an example, the reason why Livingston (the Lion Fish in Picard's office, who version 1 died after a janitor unplugged the tank over a weekend. So they hard wired the tank before purchasing version 2, and you can see episodes where the tank is noticeably empty during this period) wasn't included in the Enterprise E Ready Room for Nemesis because the director felt that "Picard wouldn't enslave an animal".

 

[ChrisFL]

...just one of the many ways that TFA and TLJ seem like they take place in alternate universes.

Perhaps that's the Episode 9 reveal

 

[englanddg]

Perhaps that's the Episode 9 reveal

You know what Star Trek needs? Mikey Spock to fly in and team up with Rey.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Perhaps that's the Episode 9 reveal

Obergruppenführer Smith will be commanding the Death Star.

 

[englanddg]

Obergruppenführer Smith will be commanding the Death Star.

Episode 9.

 

[TeriofTerror]

You keep avoiding the issue of process. Coming to rely on expensive, 11th hour fixes is not good leadership.

Wouldn't it have been an example of far worse leadership I'd they hadn't tried to fix it?

 

[englanddg]

Wouldn't it have been an example of far worse leadership I'd they hadn't tried to fix it?

Or...desperation.

 

[Mike S]

Kennedy just doesn't get it. I'm not even going to go into "the force is female" and "little girls just don't identify with Luke Skywalker" comments.

I won't even comment about the belief movies should be about escapism and not about pushing political agendas.

Let's just go right to Film making 101 - Character development. Here's a few.

Taking some one like Finn - who many speculated when the first trailers for TFA were released - may be the new Jedi hero. They've essentially turned him into a lovable, incompetent, former storm-trooper janitor, who needs a strong woman (first Rey and then Rose Tico) to find his moral compass. Then after the cliffhanger in TFA, you introduce him in TLJ by having him fall off a table and spraying bodily fluid while wearing that ridiculous looking medical suit.

Then you have Poe. Someone who has some charisma, is a rebel, and is the closest character to an early Han Solo. The Poe character had real potential - sadly it was wasted. In TLJ, Poe is basically punished and sent to his room by a purple haired Laura Dern, who's character served absolutely no purpose in the movie other than to reprimand Poe.

What did they do to Lando? Did any of them actually watch the original triology? So I'm to believe Lando - the "ladies man" of the galaxy -- when he was younger -- wanted to get jiggy with droids? Really?

Can't even bring myself to comment on L3-37. It's that ridiculous.

Seems like Disney doesn't learn. They allowed ESPN to be infiltrated with political views and agendas. And how'd that work out for them? Nobody wants that with sports.

Now they let it creep into their movies - and expect a different result?

This is not about "Star Wars Fatigue". Marvel released Infinity War - 10. Weeks. After Black Panther. Marvel has released 19 movies in 10 years. This has nothing to do with fatigue - it has to do with the people at the top not knowing (or not caring) what they are doing.

To this day a Stormtooper turned Jedi would’ve been bad@$$ as all hell. I was so ready for it too. Rey could’ve been fine if she wasn’t a Mary Sue.

What you describe is the same broken process of chasing marketing boxes. Characters with a strong story are relatable. Sometimes that means lots of screen time and other times it means only a bit, but the story should be the driving force, not “People will like [character] so that means x minutes of screen time in each act.”

To drive this point home, how long was Ellie in UP?

Episode 9.

Oh what Mel Brooks could do today with a Spaceballs sequel that roasts the hell out of Disney Star Wars...

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Oh what Mel Brooks could do today with a Spaceballs sequel that roasts the hell out of Disney Star Wars...

Kathleen Kennedy thinks Spaceballs IS the original Star Wars. Follow me here:

Has there ever been a ship in the Star Wars universe that has run out of gas...before TLJ? Sound familiar? The Eagle 5 from Spaceballs ran out of gas, it was part of the plot, they needed to get to Druidia........just like it was in TLJ - they needed to get to Crete)

The antagonist (Kylo Ren) a Darth Vader wannabe keeps taking off his helmet to get face time.........much like Dark Helmet in Spaceballs.

Both of these antagonists have a commander of their ship that is incompetent - Hux in SW and Colonel Sanders in Spaceballs.

Rey is "force" sensitive and does not know who her parents are......Lonestar in Spaceballs is "schwartz" sensitive and also is unsure of his parents.

L3 37 is Dot Matrix.

 

[englanddg]

To this day a Stormtooper turned Jedi would’ve been bad@$$ as all hell. I was so ready for it too. Rey could’ve been fine if she wasn’t a Mary Sue.

To drive this point home, how long was Ellie in UP?

Oh what Mel Brooks could do today with a Spaceballs sequel that roasts the hell out of Disney Star Wars...

I'm not even sure Rian (and maybe even Kathleen) know the difference.

Need proof? This guys video came from some chatter me, and a few others, had on one of his streams (CaptainRednek being another, he used his Patreon Powers to make it happen)...Anti-Trekker didn't believe us, until he got into it.

Well...judge for yourself. (language warning, it's because of Spaceballs)