I was not inferring that the Force not be used or even controlled. Just pointing out that even Luke recognized that The Order failed even at its strongest.
I am uncertain what you mean by "self proclaimed" Star Wars fans and that they would get "laughed out of a room" for the thought of The Order not being the best way to fight evil. I was unaware that there are rules to being a Star Wars fan and that breaking said rules gets you laughed at. If so, fine by me. Some people are nothing more than followers that need to be part of a group in order to feel they have some form of acceptance and control in their lives. Others can stand on their own and make decisions without requiring others to agree with them.
although it may have appeared as such, that was not an attack -
consider the following analogy:
you go into a room with Wolverine fans and proclaim that Wolverine doesn't really need his claws; now, regardless of whether or not you may have a point, odds are high you'll get laughed out the room, as many feel the claws are an integral part of his character.
and i make that coming from the perspective that the jedi way did not fail and kindly direct you toward the jedi code below...
when doing so, you can see luke obviously transgressed (lack of training?) when he rose his saber to kylo - which, is truly counter to the person previously established in three movies and adored by generations ........... not completely unheard of that he would digress so much, i guess, but i've already gone down that route from a production standpoint.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace.
There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge.
There is no Passion, there is Serenity.
There is no Chaos, there is Harmony.
There is no Death, there is the Force.
there are core tenants of of stoicism and buddhism in there and if you can fundamentally improve on those two schools of thought, i highly encourage you to go start a church and prep mantle space for your nobel prize.
listen, as i had alluded to previously, i'm just simply choosing to get off the star wars train, and have no ill-will, grudge, or lost respect for those continuing to ride - may the force be with you (but is there even anyone left in the galaxy that knows what that truly means anymore?... argh, sorry)
