A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[Travel Junkie]

What in hell makes you think that people are depressed or distraught? Can you point out these posts? Because I'm not seeing them.

I did report and have a couple of your posts removed. I dared to have a different opinion than you and your replies were completely inappropriate. It certainly seemed like there was a meltdown in progress.

 

[Nubs70]

I did report and have a couple of your posts removed. I dared to have a different opinion than you and your replies were completely inappropriate. It certainly seemed like there was a meltdown in progress.

Reminds me of Wonder Twins Saturday morning cartoons.

"Form of Snowflake!!!"

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I did report and have a couple of your posts removed. I dared to have a different opinion than you and your replies were completely inappropriate. It certainly seemed like there was a meltdown in progress.

I would say it was a specific disagreement that while heated, didn't really cross any lines.

The report button is...well...not something I recommend for a lot of reasons. But in this case: this was a back and forth from another Star Wars thread that was pretty in depth...it just spilled over here. I think you might miss that context.

I've personally been called about two thousand names on other disney, sports and news sites since the dawn of the internet (which means i need to take up polo or something...I realize) and never ONCE hit the report button even though it was warranted. This is all a recreational activity that will bring some passion at times...it always dies down without going to the teacher. That's a characteristic of a debate. Just my opinion...it would not be different if I was the one getting the wagons circles around.

 

[AEfx]

I did report and have a couple of your posts removed. I dared to have a different opinion than you and your replies were completely inappropriate. It certainly seemed like there was a meltdown in progress.

Uh, please stop spreading nonsense and trying to create more drama. I have gotten passionate talking about the film, particularly when people have dismissed myself and others by calling us "disgruntled fanboys" or outright making stuff up that we were not saying in an attempt to troll, but playing this innocent you card is really unbecoming - if I said something "completely inappropriate" I would have been notified by the moderators. So please stop trying to create more drama than there is.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Uh, please stop spreading nonsense and trying to create more drama. I have gotten passionate talking about the film, particularly when people have dismissed myself and others by calling us "disgruntled fanboys" or outright making stuff up that we were not saying in an attempt to troll, but playing this innocent you card is really unbecoming - if I said something "completely inappropriate" I would have been notified by the moderators. So please stop trying to create more drama than there is.

This will all be over as soon as you capitulate and embrace TLJ for the awesome and ground-breaking film it truly is!!

Honestly, those who vehemently defend TLJ as some fantastic, franchise-changing movie remind me of the Borg - Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. It is possible to have different opinions on a subject and have a civil discussion at the same time. Being dismissive of other's opinions shows a lack of understanding and blind devotion. And yes, there are a lot of SW fans that could easily be included in the latter camp at one time or another (and I may have been included at one time, years and years ago), but those numbers have shrunk with TLJ. To quote someone I heard speak years ago on arguing over different opinions - "Not WRONG, just DIFFERENT".

Disney is gonna Disney the hell out of Star Wars, and they aren't even keeping it a secret. Translation: Rather than being thoughtful stewards of a franchise (cough*MCU*cough), they are going to wring every possible penny out of it and milk the **** out of it. To those in the upper levels of TWDC, Star Wars = cash cow. End of story. I know I'm in the minority here, but my opinion is Rogue One was completely unnecessary, as is the Han Solo movie. We knew the Death Star plans were stolen. Did we need to know every detail about how they were stolen? Some stories don't need to be told. They are better off being mysterious, kind of like what happens after "happily ever after".

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This will all be over as soon as you capitulate and embrace TLJ for the awesome and ground-breaking film it truly is!!

Honestly, those who vehemently defend TLJ as some fantastic, franchise-changing movie remind me of the Borg - Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. It is possible to have different opinions on a subject and have a civil discussion at the same time. Being dismissive of other's opinions shows a lack of understanding and blind devotion. And yes, there are a lot of SW fans that could easily be included in the latter camp at one time or another (and I may have been included at one time, years and years ago), but those numbers have shrunk with TLJ. To quote someone I heard speak years ago on arguing over different opinions - "Not WRONG, just DIFFERENT".

Disney is gonna Disney the hell out of Star Wars, and they aren't even keeping it a secret. Translation: Rather than being thoughtful stewards of a franchise (cough*MCU*cough), they are going to wring every possible penny out of it and milk the **** out of it. To those in the upper levels of TWDC, Star Wars = cash cow. End of story. I know I'm in the minority here, but my opinion is Rogue One was completely unnecessary, as is the Han Solo movie. We knew the Death Star plans were stolen. Did we need to know every detail about how they were stolen? Some stories don't need to be told. They are better off being mysterious, kind of like what happens after "happily ever after".

Good take...

Just my view...this movie is devisisve and won't add anything positive to the franchise. Nobody was introduced to latch on to...and no sequences or scenes are particularly memorable...

Ironically...the one sequence that fits that criteria resulted in the loss of all of it...the decent new leader (who you eliminated and that is beyond me), in the mon calamari cruiser that we've all accepted as the backbone of the rebellion (who had NO characters from that species working it...and they were key to jedi and rogue one), in the one heroic moment of the whole film....puff...all gone. You can't create a good character and then martyr them 15 minutes later. They haven't been around long enough to really be one.

But whatever...I just think the ship has sailed on this being regarded as "one of the best"...for years the more space catalogue fans have tried to make that argument out of revenge of the sith..."better than jedi"...
Nope...it never held water. Movies and the emotions tied to them by the masses are a product of where they are trapped In time. Jedi was super awesome at its time and frankly better acted than anyone gave its credit for compared to what they've done since. The fact that people said "well at least the story was better than attack of the hormones/clones" never made it 3rd best"...it's flawed writing/pacing and acting never would allow that...along with that horrid cgi.

These things are what they are and last jedi will go down as at best middle of the pack...maybe ahead of the prequels but like the "resistance"...being chased at an uncomfortable proximity...

We've scene quite a rollercoaster ride of shouting down if you're not a fan In a month.

At first the critics proved its great...then fan reactions came in and that was shouted down.

Negative user scores were just some internet trolls...but the numbers have grown to beyond "troll" level since and it can't be ignored...

Then it's "I'm sorry you don't like fun"...which is silly and a poor attempt to divert the subject...

And now we're all just wrong...even though the box office argument as a measure of success that I and others have looked at is kinda playing out. Then we get "oh what will they do with only a billion?"

That's disney/Star Wars fanboy nonsense and delusional. The longterm is a bigger issue than repeatedly trying to make the comparison to empire which doesn't apply...but that's historical record that's easy to point out but only if people are receptive. People are dug in. Oh well.

 

[BrianLo]

Controversial thought time:

I was just postulating to myself what would the conversation look like if Rey were a male character?

Would a male need to be the son of a famous Jedi to be ultra-powerful, or would we just be content that he was an orphan? Would there be a concern if the male lead were naturally good at fighting/flying? Would our male lead need to be romantically shipped to every single female character the franchise introduced?

Do we even have an equivalent male-centric "Mary Sue" in our vocabulary?

No, he'd just be James Bond, Don Draper, Bruce Wayne, Anakin Skywalker or any litany of male characters whom are just allowed to be unrealistically naturally gifted - and orphaned.


Edit: I should clarify that I'm in no way meaning to imply people who dislike any aspect of the movie are anywhere close to being sexist. It's just a weird cultural undercurrent by the concept of a Mary Sue - which seems fairly isolated to female characters in pop-culture.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Controversial thought time:

I was just postulating to myself what would the conversation look like if Rey were a male character?

Would a male need to be the son of a famous Jedi to be ultra-powerful, or would we just be content that he was an orphan? Would there be a concern if the male lead were naturally good at fighting/flying? Would our male lead need to be romantically shipped to every single female character the franchise introduced?

Do we even have an equivalent male-centric "Mary Sue" in our vocabulary?

No, he'd just be James Bond, Don Draper, Bruce Wayne, Anakin Skywalker or any litany of male characters whom are just allowed to be unrealistically naturally gifted - and orphaned.

Star Lord. His father was a mystery. Gunn said we would learn in the second film. If we hadn’t and he was just some dead beat on Earth, yes, I think people would have been annoyed.

 

[BrianLo]

Star Lord. His father was a mystery. Gunn said we would learn in the second film. If we hadn’t and he was just some dead beat on Earth, yes, I think people would have been annoyed.

Fair enough! But I don't think the justification of his character's abilities was as predicated on his father being a god. Until they told us so in the second movie at least. That was more due to a promise from the director that it was going to be important.

Not that I think Rey's gender would solve every single problem and complaint in the least, but I'm just curious how much of the conversation would be reduced as a result. We'll never know.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Fair enough! But I don't think the justification of his character's abilities was as predicated on his father being a god. Until they told us so in the second movie at least. That was more due to a promise from the director that it was going to be important.

Not that I think Rey's gender would solve every single problem and complaint in the least, but I'm just curious how much of the conversation would be reduced as a result. We'll never know.

But your examples of skilled males doesn’t hold up either. Bruce Wayne trained. Anakin Skywalker trained. James Bond trained. I’m guessing Don Draper was also trained in advertising.

 

[wdisney9000]

Controversial thought time:

I was just postulating to myself what would the conversation look like if Rey were a male character?

Would a male need to be the son of a famous Jedi to be ultra-powerful, or would we just be content that he was an orphan? Would there be a concern if the male lead were naturally good at fighting/flying? Would our male lead need to be romantically shipped to every single female character the franchise introduced?

Do we even have an equivalent male-centric "Mary Sue" in our vocabulary?

No, he'd just be James Bond, Don Draper, Bruce Wayne, Anakin Skywalker or any litany of male characters whom are just allowed to be unrealistically naturally gifted - and orphaned.

In all fairness , there are plenty of strong female characters in books and cinema that parallel each of your examples (i.e Bond, Draper,Skywalker, etc).

 

[BrianLo]

But your examples of skilled males doesn’t hold up either. Brice Wayne trained. Anakin Skywalker trained. James Bond trained. I’m guessing Don Draper was also trained in advertising.

Rey trained too - it's the self-taught issue people have major, major qualms with. The parentage of course does not excuse that plot point. "Ah, so she's Luke's daughter" doesn't explain that away. Unless the hope was for some mind-wipe business.

 

[bcoachable]

Star Lord. His father was a mystery. Gunn said we would learn in the second film. If we hadn’t and he was just some dead beat on Earth, yes, I think people would have been annoyed.

Maybe Ray belongs to Star Lord thanks to one of his flings (can i say that on here?) and thus we have the Marvel tie in that Disney has been longing for?

 

[BrianLo]

In all fairness , there are plenty of strong female characters in books and cinema that parallel each of your examples (i.e Bond, Draper,Skywalker, etc).

Totally. I didn't mean for it to come across accusatory. The gender of the character does not excuse away the issues, I don't mean to say people hate the new trilogy because of the female lead. I'm just wondering in my head how the conversation would have been altered as a result. Mostly because of this term "Mary Sue", which is seemingly often applied to female characters.

Wonder Woman is a perfect parallel example to Bond - etc. as you mentioned.

 

[bclane]

Controversial thought time:

I was just postulating to myself what would the conversation look like if Rey were a male character?

Would a male need to be the son of a famous Jedi to be ultra-powerful, or would we just be content that he was an orphan? Would there be a concern if the male lead were naturally good at fighting/flying? Would our male lead need to be romantically shipped to every single female character the franchise introduced?

Do we even have an equivalent male-centric "Mary Sue" in our vocabulary?

No, he'd just be James Bond, Don Draper, Bruce Wayne, Anakin Skywalker or any litany of male characters whom are just allowed to be unrealistically naturally gifted - and orphaned.

I think that while there are likely some people that dislike her as a hero simply because they are sexist, I think this probably represents a very small minority of the population...or at least I would hope so.

 

[Bairstow]

Fair enough! But I don't think the justification of his character's abilities was as predicated on his father being a god. Until they told us so in the second movie at least. That was more due to a promise from the director that it was going to be important.

Not that I think Rey's gender would solve every single problem and complaint in the least, but I'm just curious how much of the conversation would be reduced as a result. We'll never know.

I think you're conflating two separate complaints.

People disliked the Rey character in the first movie because she was able to fly a huge spaceship without being taught how... when the film had just made a point of showing us that people who have not been taught how to fly spaceships cannot.

People disliked the writing of the second film because where the first film spent a fair amount of time building up the importance of the mystery of Rey's parentage, the second film appeared to discard that notion, first visually and then explicitly. This can, of course, be undone again with a stroke of JJAbrahms keyboard, but for the time being anyone who was invested in seeing that story thread paid off was probably a little disappointed.

I would agree, however, that there are plenty of chauvinistic fans who are less receptive of Rey as a character because she is female, but their bias does not also mean that this character is especially compelling otherwise.

 

[yeti]

Controversial thought time:

I was just postulating to myself what would the conversation look like if Rey were a male character?

Would a male need to be the son of a famous Jedi to be ultra-powerful, or would we just be content that he was an orphan? Would there be a concern if the male lead were naturally good at fighting/flying? Would our male lead need to be romantically shipped to every single female character the franchise introduced?

Do we even have an equivalent male-centric "Mary Sue" in our vocabulary?

No, he'd just be James Bond, Don Draper, Bruce Wayne, Anakin Skywalker or any litany of male characters whom are just allowed to be unrealistically naturally gifted - and orphaned.


Edit: I should clarify that I'm in no way meaning to imply people who dislike any aspect of the movie are anywhere close to being sexist. It's just a weird cultural undercurrent by the concept of a Mary Sue - which seems fairly isolated to female characters in pop-culture.

The weird thing for me is, how did Rey and Kylo both become exponentially stronger between TFA and TLJ (that's what in Star Wars time, a week?)

When The Force Awakens came out, I always knew the Rey haters were hypocrites. Luke rescued a princess and even "used the force" to blow up the Death Star. Rey was able to hold her own against another untrained force user...that's it. That has nothing on what Luke was able to accomplish with virtually no training whatsoever. But "no.." they said, "she's such a Mary Sue" they said...

Now in The Last Jedi though, both of these characters achieve unbelievable powers out of nowhere. I'm assuming you all know what scenes I'm talking about. Neither of them have undergone any further training. So, what gives?

I liked the movie, but this "raw strength" excuse is one of the strangest deus ex machinas in Star Wars history...and that's saying a lot.

Also, Don Draper only got the job because he got his boss drunk.

 

[BrianLo]

I think you're conflating two separate complaints.

People disliked the Rey character in the first movie because she was able to fly a huge spaceship without being taught how... when the film had just made a point of showing us that people who have not been taught how to fly spaceships cannot.

People disliked the writing of the second film because where the first film spent a fair amount of time building up the importance of the mystery of Rey's parentage, the second film appeared to discard that notion, first visually and then explicitly. This can, of course, be undone again with a stroke of JJAbrahms keyboard, but for the time being anyone who was invested in seeing that story thread paid off was probably a little disappointed.

I would agree, however, that there are plenty of chauvinistic fans who are less receptive of Rey as a character because she is female, but their bias does not also mean that this character is especially compelling otherwise.

Agreed on all points. I personally think they are two separate complaints. I have seen quite a few people conflate the two though in their criticism of the movie, that's the root of my comment. Not my personal beliefs, because I do not see how they are related as you point out.

I can relate to the disappointment in the reveal because it is exactly how I felt about Lost's ending. JJ has a way with unfortunately building things up in such a way that when an ultimately potentially bolder and character defining choices are made it's disappointing that it does not exactly add up with how things were telegraphed.

Some good introspection, even if I'm still secretly ticked at Lost.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I really defended disney for Not Playing race and gender games with Star Wars...

Completely dismissed it 2 years ago...wasn't real receptive of it last year as I thought jones acquitted herself of it...

...but I'm starting to let the pickets get overrun on this.

The fisher story/lack of response was awful...they didn't need her (honestly we never did since endor). Her cringeworthy portrayal does nothing to fight archetypes in Hollywood or empower viewers...it just looks terrible and detracts from what was a fantastic role in the original trilogy. Hamill was the rock the whole thing was built on...fisher was next stone up. I can't state that with more conviction. She really (along with weaver) invented the female action hero (gold bikini not withstanding)...

In a way...Star Wars LEAST needed female empowerment coming into 7...

But Kennedy has gone really bonkers here and it's being done at the expense of the story. Finn and rose are useless...totally...even the Poe/holdo/fisher dynamic that was set up well now looks lost. He's an idiot? Great...he's also the highest ranking member of your army.

I would really like to know what they were doing instead of viewing/editing this film? Because I think they let Johnson do it alone on a conference call with corporate. It shows.

 

[Bairstow]

The weird thing for me is, how did Rey and Kylo both become exponentially stronger between TFA and TLJ (that's what in Star Wars time, a week?)

When The Force Awakens came out, I always knew the Rey haters were hypocrites. Luke rescued a princess and even "used the force" to blow up the Death Star. Rey was able to hold her own against another untrained force user...that's it. That has nothing on what Luke was able to accomplish with virtually no training whatsoever. But "no.." they said, "she's such a Mary Sue" they said...

Now in The Last Jedi though, both of these characters achieve unbelievable powers out of nowhere. I'm assuming you all know what scenes I'm talking about. Neither of them have undergone any further training. So, what gives?

I liked the movie, but this "raw strength" excuse is one of the strangest deus ex machinas in Star Wars history...and that's saying a lot.

Also, Don Draper only got the job because he got his boss drunk.

Is it ever explicit in Star Wars that Luke gets the shot off because of the force? My take on all the "force powers" in the first film is that it could all still be in people's heads- it's called a religion. It's not until the second movie that stuff starts to levitate and ghosts appear.

As for Kylo Ren, I thought **** is shown training him, and after that presumably Snoke taught him a thing or two. He's poorly-trained, not untrained like Rey.