A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Well I don't know where all the numbers are coming from, but Star Wars is very popular among the masses. That being said, of the people I know that are big Star Wars fans and (obviously) saw the movie, a bit more than half loved it, a bit less than half hated it. I thought it was pretty good...I've never seen such a serious divide in a Star Wars fan base on one movie. Episode VIII has really separated the fans.

I just saw the movie today. Did John Williams write the music? I’ve been disappointed with the music for TLJ and TFA. Is it time for John to retire?

 

[Bairstow]

I just saw the movie today. Did John Williams write the music? I’ve been disappointed with the music for TLJ and TFA. Is it time for John to retire?

Yep. Both were him and they're both underwhelming.
I am anticipating Michael Giacciono may eventually replace him, though his own score for Rogue One was instantly forgettable as well. I heard Giacchino had very little time to work on it, though.

 

[Cesar R M]

We've been discussing this in TLJ SPOILERS thread.

80-90% of the audience gives TLJ a thumbs up. That's from critics, 3 different scientifically sampled polls, one an unscientific self-selecting poll on IMDB which has a lot more 'votes' than RT. The outlier is RT's unscientific self-selecting poll. So, a fluke, or being tampered with by people with grudges, but not at all accurate.



This leaves Box Office numbers. What exactly was TLJ supposed to make compared to TFA? 100% as much? 80%? 50% (which is where Rogue 1 is at)?
Comparing the drop-off from Ep 4 to 5 and Ep 1 to 2, then you'd expect TLJ to be at 66%... which it seems it is on track to make.



So, the only data point showing that TLJ hurt the franchise in any way is the outlier RT number... and the ferocity of the haters who try to make it seem like more didn't like it than real polls show.

IMDB is irrelevant now. There are hackers, scriptkiddies and even "companies" making bots to inflate votes.
And its very usual now to see total crap movies getting favourable scores thanks to people from the production mass voting positive (like Asylum and syfy branded movies)

 

[englanddg]

I know this is a really odd idea...but how about...people...having...opinions. And, I dunno, voicing them. And debating them?

I mean, when did "well, box office" and "critic scores" become a valid response to direct critiques of the STORY?

"Well, you are wrong because x and y website says you are!"

What nonsense.

There have ALWAYS been ways to game these websites. From scraping to bots to whatever.

How about people address the points being made? And, then...ask the more relevant point. Do you check RT or IMDB or any other online ratings forum BEFORE you go see the movie?

I suspect not. Well, outside of when you are bored and are looking for "critically acclaimed movies" to look up on netflix.

We live in an era when movie tickets are not "expensive", frankly....this was not the case when the first trilogy aired. A trip to the movies was a few times a year, at MOST, experience.

Now, it is every few months. And, if you wait a few months, you can see that "blockbuster" on (insert streaming service).

It isn't the same market...and critics play far less of a role.

Critics mean something when you CARE about where your entertainment dollar is going. When you know if you give it a few months, and you can see it free On Demand, you care far less as a consumer...and as a result, critic results mean less.

NONE of this is discussed with the "critics love it" vs "fans hate it" talking points.

It's...far more complex.

 

[shortstop]

Yep. Both were him and they're both underwhelming.
I am anticipating Michael Giacciono may eventually replace him, though his own score for Rogue One was instantly forgettable as well. I heard Giacchino had very little time to work on it, though.

I found TFA’s score to be relatively lackluster aside from Rey’s Theme, which in my opinion is up there among best Star Wars music themes. I thought TLJ’s music was much better but mostly due to use of old/existing musical queues.

I am a huge fan of Giacchino, and Rogue One aside, I expect him to do well if (when) he takes over for John Williams entirely.

 

[smile]

IMDB is irrelevant now.

possibly, but i do find their 'rating by demographic' info rather telling.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt

 

[ford91exploder]

I know this is a really odd idea...but how about...people...having...opinions. And, I dunno, voicing them. And debating them?

I mean, when did "well, box office" and "critic scores" become a valid response to direct critiques of the STORY?

"Well, you are wrong because x and y website says you are!"

What nonsense.

There have ALWAYS been ways to game these websites. From scraping to bots to whatever.

How about people address the points being made? And, then...ask the more relevant point. Do you check RT or IMDB or any other online ratings forum BEFORE you go see the movie?

I suspect not. Well, outside of when you are bored and are looking for "critically acclaimed movies" to look up on netflix.

We live in an era when movie tickets are not "expensive", frankly....this was not the case when the first trilogy aired. A trip to the movies was a few times a year, at MOST, experience.

Now, it is every few months. And, if you wait a few months, you can see that "blockbuster" on (insert streaming service).

It isn't the same market...and critics play far less of a role.

Critics mean something when you CARE about where your entertainment dollar is going. When you know if you give it a few months, and you can see it free On Demand, you care far less as a consumer...and as a result, critic results mean less.

NONE of this is discussed with the "critics love it" vs "fans hate it" talking points.

It's...far more complex.

Actually its not that complex Disney has become rather thin skinned about criticism an example being the LA Times article about relations with Anaheim.

Because Disney has become such a dominant player in the movie industry critics are afraid of offending Disney and losing access to the Disney Studio so expect many more near unanimous great reviews of whatever Disney puts out, From here on out. EVERY Disney movie will be a critical success, The real indicator wlll be box office.

TLJ is a failure by the 'Every SW movie needs to make bigger box office than the previous one and must sell more merchandise'. Even though objectively it was a financial success I'm sure its seen as failure internal to Disney

 

[bclane]

 

[NearTheEars]

I don't know if $DIS thought TLJ would do as well as TFA, but they made sure they were going to make as much, if not more, money off of it. Look at the things they pulled with movie theaters if you want evidence - **65%** of each ticket sale, minimum # of weeks in the top theater, etc. That doesn't say to me that the movie studio is confident in its product, it smells like a movie studio that's desperate.

Personally, I think they've damaged Ep9, and possibly the SW brand in general, with some of what they did in Ep8. I, for one, am not applauding Rian Johnson for the hot pile of garbage he made. Between the thousands of negative Joe Star-Wars-Fan reviews and Mark Hamill on record as saying, "This isn't my Luke Skywalker", you have a good reason to be wary. Disney's response? "It making money!" "It's selling merchandise!!!" It took all of 4 years of Disney/Iger's "guidance" to reduce nearly 40 years of Star Wars fandom into a pile of rubble. Bravo.

Call me a curmudgeon if you wish, but Disney doesn't have the Midas touch it used to have, and the only thing Disney is doing right these days movie-wise is letting Kevin Feige run the MCU. They've run Pirates into the ground. They're running Star Wars into the ground. Pixar is... well, Pixar, but we need to see what's going to happen with them and WDAS without Lasseter.

Curmudgeon

 

[shortstop]

Actually its not that complex Disney has become rather thin skinned about criticism an example being the LA Times article about relations with Anaheim.

Because Disney has become such a dominant player in the movie industry critics are afraid of offending Disney and losing access to the Disney Studio so expect many more near unanimous great reviews of whatever Disney puts out, From here on out. EVERY Disney movie will be a critical success, The real indicator wlll be box office.

TLJ is a failure by the 'Every SW movie needs to make bigger box office than the previous one and must sell more merchandise'. Even though objectively it was a financial success I'm sure its seen as failure internal to Disney

That explains why Cars 3 received so much critical success, then...

 

[Jones14]

Yep. Both were him and they're both underwhelming.
I am anticipating Michael Giacciono may eventually replace him, though his own score for Rogue One was instantly forgettable as well. I heard Giacchino had very little time to work on it, though.

Really? I quite liked both scores, TFA in particular. I will admit that TLJ was more of a ‘best of Star Wars’ soundtrack and didn’t really tread new ground, but I also felt that he had already introduced so many themes in TFA that it would have been hard to develop more, particularly with such a focus on Luke and Leia in this movie.

Rogue One is definitely weak, but like you said, Giachinno had two weeks to do it. I believe that Desplat (Deathly Hallows) was the original composer, though, and so I was happy with the switch, even with the time crunch.

 

[ford91exploder]

That explains why Cars 3 received so much critical success, then...

That was a few years back before Disney got so touchy about messaging in the past couple of years starting with the spiked Hufffington Post piece and most recently banning LA Times because they reported on the friction with Anaheim.

 

[peter11435]

That was a few years back before Disney got so touchy about messaging...

It was this year.

Not even 4 months ago

 

[jakeman]

TLJ is a failure by the 'Every SW movie needs to make bigger box office than the previous one and must sell more merchandise'. Even though objectively it was a financial success I'm sure its seen as failure internal to Disney

TLJ is a failure by a completely arbitrary and unsourced set of parameters you have fabricated based on your delusional interpretations of the inner workings of TWDC.

I always find it interesting the way this forum gropes for weaknesses in Disney products, especially when the hive opinion is at odds with the public one.

TFA was a failure ultimately because of "Hollywood accounting". TLJ is still lurching towards it's final judgement on why it is ultimately a failure, but so far we have legitimately seen the following theories being bandied about:

• Paid off critics
• Russian hackers
• "My friends and I didn't like it so how could others?"
• Externally it is a financial success, but internally it's a failure because reasons

It's a fascinating undulation of the forum in general and these threads in particular.

That's not a defense of TLJ just an observation on how the forum works.

 

[jakeman]

That was a few years back before Disney got so touchy about messaging in the past couple of years starting with the spiked Hufffington Post piece and most recently banning LA Times because they reported on the friction with Anaheim.

There is a reason these threads in particular latched onto the HuffPo piece.

 

[lazyboy97o]

TFA was a failure ultimately because of "Hollywood accounting".

Hollywood Accounting is a real thing and it would not be surprising if The Last Jedi never posts a net profit. David Prowse has long complained about being told that Return of the Jedi is still not profitable. It’s also why Winston Groom has not allowed a sequel to Forrest Gump, saying it would be wrong to sell the sequel rights for a movie that didn’t make any money. It’s not how Studios measure success, but it is a real and rather scummy practice.

 

[JoeCamel]

Hollywood Accounting is a real thing and it would not be surprising if The Last Jedi never posts a net profit. David Prowse has long complained about being told that Return of the Jedi is still not profitable. It’s also why Winston Groom has not allowed a sequel to Forrest Gump, saying it would be wrong to sell the sequel rights for a movie that didn’t make any money. It’s not how Studios measure success, but it is a real and rather scummy practice.

When they offer that 1/4 or 1/2 point be sure it comes off the front end not the back if you have the pull. If they are talking multiple points then you won't be doing the negotiating, you have people for that.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Hollywood Accounting is a real thing and it would not be surprising if The Last Jedi never posts a net profit. David Prowse has long complained about being told that Return of the Jedi is still not profitable. It’s also why Winston Groom has not allowed a sequel to Forrest Gump, saying it would be wrong to sell the sequel rights for a movie that didn’t make any money. It’s not how Studios measure success, but it is a real and rather scummy practice.

Great, another “Hollywood accounting” discussion. It’s a tax avoidance scheme. If you never post a gross profit, the corporation which holds the film’s copyright is never taxed. Any monies the film makes are sent to predetermined parties, studio, investors, actors and crew, as expenses so revenues are never greater than expenses.

This isn’t hard.

These films do make money, but it’s only the taxman, and some suckers, who don’t see a profit. TFA made money on its investment and so will TLJ. Saying they’re failures is preposterous.

 

[AEfx]

In addition to the recent articles (e.g., "JJ is Pitching his Idea for Episode IX to Iger" or https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-rian-johnson-freedom-no-pre-planned-story/), the "Art of" books make it pretty clear that there is/was no "master plan" nor pre-planned, over-arching storyline for this new trilogy.

They are building this plane mid-flight.

And it certainly shows...I think once people are able to watch TFA and TLJ back to back they will see where those flaws are. They are just unmistakable. The films simply do not go together.

 

[AEfx]

I had no pre-existing grudge against Disney/Star Wars. I had no "perfect plot figured out". The movie didn't play out in any sort of logical way. But I'm on a high horse. My opinion doesn't matter. Only movie critics are allowed to like or dislike a movie. And I'm wrong. Gotcha.

You couldn't sound more condescending if you tried. Buh bye.

Exactly. You couldn't be more right.

I had no attachment to any particular direction for the story to take. So the idea of "well, people are just mad because it didn't follow their fantasy path" just are leaning on a terrible excuse. It's as bad as "well, ESB had mixed reviews when it came out" - which was for totally different situational reasons (the fact that at the time it was virtually unheard of for a film of this genre to end on a cliffhanger like that, as well as the rather somber tone).

The critics are just responding to the film on its own. Not as part of a trilogy. If it were a stand-alone film, it wouldn't have as many issues (though, it still would have some real leaps of logic and could have easily been 45 minutes shorter). As a follow-up to TFA, though, that's where it falls apart. It's biggest crime is that it makes TFA look as bad as some folks said it was at the time - something I spent two years railing against. It made so much of the film nonsensical and really the ultimate "Mary Sue". I just didn't believe they would do such a thing. Yet...they did, in this one.

What I also don't see folks acknowledging is that this time the "well, they were focusing on new characters" can't even be an excuse, because in terms of the film, Poe and Finn may well have not even been there and the film would have gone the same way. They had no impact on the story. All to turn the big plot of the sequel trilogy in to

Spoiler

"Twilight In Space"

.