A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[the.dreamfinder]

It's not replacing rides. Shoehorned in to me is putting Frozen into Malestrom. Putting Nemo in the Seas. Putting Guardians into Energy.

I still feel Disney is using their IPs better than Universal. Look at Jimmy Fallon for example and Fast and Furious. I will take a Toy Story Land and Star Wars Land over that all day long.

You’re both coming at this from the perspective of the consumer/fan. Themed entertainment is an art form and how the art is conceptualized and experienced should go hand in hand during a critical discussion. Guests experience Animal Kingdom in a completely different way than they do with IoA. Guests don’t need to have Joe Rohde lecture them for ninety minutes about the intentions and thematic underpinnings of the park before they enter. They feel it. They experience it in new ways every time they visit. They form a relationship with the park and can engage more deeply with it.

EPCOT Center’s been dead for years and yet it still resonates with the people lucky enough to have visited it in its prime. Heck, even kids who never got to ride Horizons or Journey Into Imagination V1 are very interested in them and not in some insincere “orange bird fandom” way.

Themed entertainment is art.

You can form a relationship with art.

You can’t form a relationship through an ancillary licensing agreement.

Beat Super Mario Odyssey earlier and I want to leave you guys with a story about the other big Nintendo game that came out this year; The Legend of Zelda- Breath of the Wild. A gamer, who took tons of pictures over the course of their journey, printed a physical photo album to remember their adventures in Hyrule. The bond they formed with this virtual space over the course of the game meant so much to them that they wanted to remember it in a tangible way.

 

[BrianLo]

Ok, Your assertion is SWL has not been shoehorned into DL, How does it fit within the areas theme?

Let's do this rigamarole again. Star Wars is a Space Fantasy, set technically in the past but with clear allusions to fantasy-like tech of tomorrow. They are building a far reaches of the galaxies' frontier trading outpost on the edge of (you guessed it) frontier-land.

No, it does not truly qualify as Americana, perhaps a stickler for some as an under-written theme. No, the source material was not created under Disney's flagship. Yes, the land is an adaptation from said source material, but IT IS an original location and creation specifically for the parks. No, the land will not accommodate additional properties. Yes, the land is dichotomous to Disneyland's diminutive use of land. But the scaling is respectful of legacy architecture and at the same time recognizes the industry of themed design has evolved. No, nothing that people feared about the land outscaling the park was actually true. Yes, the train spends about as much time in this new land as it did in Frontierland before this summer (it is actually visible in the land briefly). Yes, there is going to be guest crowding issues (which has nothing to do with its appropriateness and everything to do with longstanding mismanagement of resort infrastructure).

Yes, it pretty much fits the same qualifiers as 20k leagues under the sea. Something no one seems to question as inappropriate for a castle park - and yet - there it was. Neither would a Jules Verne-based Land (French), or Alice in Wonderland (British) or any other land previously proposed for that plot have fit any better or worse on any of the above metrics. Neither of those would have contained original locations created by imagineering either.

No, I will not and certainly have not convinced a single soul who is vehemently opposed to this that it fits. But I'm no stranger to this phenomenon with Pandora. The outrage slowly fades once people stop inventing the worst-of scenarios and wake up to what they are actually doing.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Heck, even kids who never got to ride Horizons or Journey Into Imagination V1 are very interested in them and not in some insincere “orange bird fandom” way.

As a side note, I'm tired of the no$talgic merch craze that's being milked all the time by Disney. It's flat out insulting for the same company who destroyed so much of its own legacy to then turn around and push $30 t-shirts to show how much they "like" their fans.

If they really want to move Figment merch, for example, then they should build an attraction that can create its own hype and fanbase.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Star Wars has been a part of 3 Disneylands for decades. It's pointless to argue whether or not it (or Indiana Jones) fits now.

Star Wars Land, however, is limiting in both it's conceptual scope (compared to the broad themes of the rest of the park) and the lack of physical expansion space & existing park capacity to handle such crowds. I think that's fair to say, regardless of how good or bad the end result is.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

But I'm no stranger to this phenomenon with Pandora. The outrage slowly fades once people stop inventing the worst-of scenarios and wake up to what they are actually doing.

But Pandora works thematically with the park. A lot of the controversy in the fan community around Pandora was the idea that this was Disney’s response to Wizarding World Hogsmeade and whether it could actually be that. Little evidence shows that it has, but it works for the park in adding capacity and bringing fictional creatures to the park in a single land.

The problem with your SW:GE argument is that it’s ex post facto. Disneyland needed a major expansion. It was going to be built on the Circle D Ranch or the subs, Autopia, and the PeopleMover/monorail tracks. They chose a plan that would use the former.

We go back and forth on this a lot, but that’s it. There was no thematic justification for the decision when it was made. Bob wants Star Wars to be in the parks in a big way before he leaves the company. Presence and maximum revenue extraction are the goals. Is it the right decision for what Iger wants? Yes. Is it the right decision for Disneyland, Star Wars in the medium of themed entertainment and P&R’s long term financial health? Absolutely not.

 

[ChrisFL]

I still feel Disney is using their IPs better than Universal. Look at Jimmy Fallon for example and Fast and Furious. I will take a Toy Story Land and Star Wars Land over that all day long.

You're comparing individual attractions to entire lands.

 

[ford91exploder]

Not what I said. There’s a distinction to be made between a theme park, that can contain IPs channeled through theme, and an IP multiplex, where anything goes, provided you own the rights.

Theme parks offer much deeper storytelling and emotional possibilities than an IP multiplex.
This medium is so young and so much hasn’t been done yet, only to be killed by the barbarians.

Universal did the IP multiplex and sadly Disney is copying Universal, Universal has always been about 'Ride The Movies'.

Sadly so is Disney under Iger because all he really cares about is being a movie mogul starting with putting the craptastic IP Avatar into AK, Shoehorning SWL into DL, GotG and Frozen in EPCOT

The great irony is Disney HAD a movie park where all of this stuff could fit organically although Frozen probably would have been a better fit in Fantasyland, Perhaps over by the old gondola station where the transition from a german village to a nordic princedom would have been an easy fit

Yet the movie park has been gutted for what appear to be largely financial reasons as the closed rides were expensive to operate, The justification for the closures never made sense unless looked at in a 'make the numbers' context.

Historically P&R reinvested approximately 20% of revenue in the parks under Iger that fell to a low of 7% and even now 'during biggest expansion evah' is only about 12%, yet up I-4 a bit UNI is spending what Disney USED to spend and their P&R financials are far better than Disneys, is UNI better than Disney, no not yet, Let's face it Avatar did not 'git r done' for Disney as has one low capacity ride in demand.

SWL has the potential to backfire spectacularly as the lands ride systems dont have the capacity and people are gonna be ed if little Johnny and Aidan don't get to ride SW attractions after spending new car money on a trip.

Disney needed to GO BIG on SWL as usual they bunted.

Disney has been so focused on growing the stock price that they missed a major chance to actually grow the P&R business significantly.

Like I said SW needed its OWN park perhaps you build only one, But it would need to have massive capacity and probably at least 8-10 high capacity E-tickets. Imagine an omnimover through the Gungans underwater city, a Hogwarts express trip through a Star Destroyer.

If I had been in charge I would have done a SW gate in FL, And MARVEL in CA probably in DCA

Why one asks, because it gets people to BOTH my US park complexes.

Plus doing it like I suggest would not have destroyed the thematic integrity of 4 parks!

 

[Mike S]

So Universal bought another 100 acres for Site B.
https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...ve-universal-orlando-resortscoops-up-100.html

Let the games begin.

 

[ford91exploder]

Star Wars has been a part of 3 Disneylands for decades. It's pointless to argue whether or not it (or Indiana Jones) fits now.

Star Wars Land, however, is limiting in both it's conceptual scope (compared to the broad themes of the rest of the park) and the lack of physical expansion space & existing park capacity to handle such crowds. I think that's fair to say, regardless of how good or bad the end result is.

SWL is going to be an epic logistical disaster, think the last SWW multiplied by x100

All Disney will accomplish with SWL is gridlock and tens of thousands of disappointed fans who will come and not be able to ride, The lands needed capacities in the high thousands perhaps even low teens per hour instead we have capacities of in the low thousands

I'm gonna break out the popcorn on SWL's opening day and enjoy the tears of the fanbois. And later watch the independent bloggers rip disney a new one for the logistical failures. Im sure the usual suspects will get their comp hotel stays and all the rides they can ride with an army of plaids.

Normal guests, well not so much...

 

[bhg469]

SWL is going to be an epic logistical disaster, think the last SWW multiplied by x100

All Disney will accomplish with SWL is gridlock and tens of thousands of disappointed fans who will come and not be able to ride, The lands needed capacities in the high thousands perhaps even low teens per hour instead we have capacities of in the low thousands

I'm gonna break out the popcorn on SWL's opening day and enjoy the tears of the fanbois. And later watch the independent bloggers rip disney a new one for the logistical failures. Im sure the usual suspects will get their comp hotel stays and all the rides they can ride with an army of plaids.

Normal guests, well not so much...

Opening day? I don't see them being able to handle this for a few years. Unlike pandora, people are planning trips for this. It will be potter opening on a whole new level and I just don't see them being able to handle this.

 

[ford91exploder]

Opening day? I don't see them being able to handle this for a few years. Unlike pandora, people are planning trips for this. It will be potter opening on a whole new level and I just don't see them being able to handle this.

Nope, This will be B-school case study in how to underinvest in the face of pent up demand. The FAIL will be epic.

Supposedly Iger will be gone by then so whoever gets the top seat at Disney will take the fall for this one. I feel sorry for them already

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Opening day? I don't see them being able to handle this for a few years. Unlike pandora, people are planning trips for this. It will be potter opening on a whole new level and I just don't see them being able to handle this.

If they’re smart, they’ll have mandatory entrance times like WWoHP did. Wonder if paid guaranteed access, as rumored for DL, would come to DHS?

 

[truecoat]

So Universal bought another 100 acres for Site B.
https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando...ve-universal-orlando-resortscoops-up-100.html

Let the games begin.

575 acres to work with, not too bad. I heard this also gives them another road for access.

 

[BrianLo]

But Pandora works thematically with the park. A lot of the controversy in the fan community around Pandora was the idea that this was Disney’s response to Wizarding World Hogsmeade and whether it could actually be that. Little evidence shows that it has, but it works for the park in adding capacity and bringing fictional creatures to the park in a single land.

The problem with your SW:GE argument is that it’s ex post facto. Disneyland needed a major expansion. It was going to be built on the Circle D Ranch or the subs, Autopia, and the PeopleMover/monorail tracks. They chose a plan that would use the former.

We go back and forth on this a lot, but that’s it. There was no thematic justification for the decision when it was made. Bob wants Star Wars to be in the parks in a big way before he leaves the company. Presence and maximum revenue extraction are the goals. Is it the right decision for what Iger wants? Yes. Is it the right decision for Disneyland, Star Wars in the medium of themed entertainment and P&R’s long term financial health? Absolutely not.

Totally! Iger’s motivations are Iger’s motivations. They don’t dictate how WDI handles a product. I think Pandora is apt because despite the motivation (jump on the IP land bandwagon/response to Potter) a thematically coherent product was added to AK in the end. The same could or could not occur here. Iger wants to get Star Wars in the parks, that doesn’t mean WDI can’t create a thematically coherent vision for DL despite Iger’s goal... he isn’t the one designing it.

I think the thing that bothers me is that many people aren’t even In favour of thematic consistency to begin with. The common counter proposal is a 3rd Park dumping ground full of IP. That’s just another multiplex as you say (or immersive property park to put it more lightly). A dumping ground park does not advance themed design either. SW:GE is at least an attempt at upholding themes beyond ‘Star wars is a movie’.

 

[ford91exploder]

If they’re smart, they’ll have mandatory entrance times like WWoHP did. Wonder if paid guaranteed access, as rumored for DL, would come to DHS?

Im sure paid access will be a component the only question is how much. DW and her school BFF paid for VIP at the last SW celebration. So they could charge a grand a day and there would stil be a waitlist

 

[ChrisFL]

Totally! Iger’s motivations are Iger’s motivations. They don’t dictate how WDI handles a product. I think Pandora is apt because despite the motivation (jump on the IP land bandwagon/response to Potter) a thematically coherent product was added to AK in the end. The same could or could not occur here. Iger wants to get Star Wars in the parks, that doesn’t mean WDI can’t create a thematically coherent vision for DL despite Iger’s goal... he isn’t the one designing it.

I think the thing that bothers me is that many people aren’t even In favour of thematic consistency to begin with. The common counter proposal is a 3rd Park dumping ground full of IP. That’s just another multiplex as you say (or immersive property park to put it more lightly). A dumping ground park does not advance themed design either. SW:GE is at least an attempt at upholding themes beyond ‘Star wars is a movie’.

I definitely understand your point, however I also think it is becoming more and more difficult to get original, non-IP experiences to be popular and able to be funded in this day and age. They're trying to also please the "what did your last quarter do for me" kind of investors which unfortunately Disney has to worry about.

So with that in mind, trying to fulfill the needs of what IP can fit in where becomes even more difficult if trying to fit into a Disneyland style park and not go the "generic studio" route.

 

[doctornick]

Oh, this could be really good. New creative ride system... I remember when Disney used to do that sort of thing.

Like the Shanghai POTC system?

 

[EricsBiscuit]

I think the paid access is the ticket price. For what DHS will offer, it'll be "access to SWL, plus this other stuff." They really need to add, keyword ADD, Cars Land, Indiana Jones land, daytime parade, daytime something in Hollywood Hills Ampitheater, and refresh all the shows in order to fix the park IMO.

 

[brb1006]

So in an attempt to turn this thread to a more positive direction. I found a good quality version of The Age Of Information song and diorama that was formerly at Communicore. Martin would love this.

 

[WDWTank]

I still feel Disney is using their IPs better than Universal. Look at Jimmy Fallon for example and Fast and Furious. I will take a Toy Story Land and Star Wars Land over that all day long.

The Jimmy Fallon ride sucks