A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
To me, saying that Disney has any role in this is like saying an incident happened at Walt Disney World when it actually happened down the street. I don't see how Disney is at fault for the actions of one man who has no ties to The Walt Disney Company currently.

When bad acts are committed by an officer of the company, the company IS responsible for the actions of it's officers. The BoD is supposed to be a check on the officers. Eisner fired the Weinsteins I'm sure there was some paperwork which necessitated public silence, I'd also not be surprised if 'evidence' was retained in the event of Civil/Criminal action against the Weinsteins to protect Disney.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Looks like they've got no problem with following along with EA and in a way going to an all new low when it comes to big video game development and micro transactions for randomized loot boxes in games that already cost $60.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insert...ike-theyre-going-to-be-a-serious-problem/amp/

I really hope lawmakers eventually notice this crap and regulation reigns it in. It's really getting ridiculous that what used to come standard or unlocked through simply getting better at a game now has to be gambled for or received incredibly slowly through a grind to make the payments look more attractive.

(please don't make me do this, please don't make me play devil's advocate...please...ugh...here goes)

Yes, the way EA has implemented this is stupid and terrible and they deserve what they are getting. But it's not for the reasons you think. The actual valid complaint is getting lost in the din.

The valid complaint is that general progression is tied to random boxes you earn and open (based on the beta). Now, that is VERY important to point out - based on the beta. Leaks have happened that show a different build of the game where it's quite different. If that turns out to be the case, then EA was really, really stupid to have it this way in the beta. The reason this is a bad thing is because you and I can both have equal skill, both play the same length of time, and both get the same number of kills, etc. - and one of us can be further ahead than the other. That is stupid and deserves the ire.

When it comes to DLC and microtransactions - here is the thing. They are here to stay. Well, no, you have two choices. One, live in a world where video games cost a standard $60, as they do, and put up with them (and is demanded by retailers and the game community at large, as well as just about every study/survey ever done), or games have a sliding scale, and a game like BF2 which cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make costs everyone $120 for the standard edition. When the financials are out, I won't be surprised if EA spent more on BF2 than Disney did on TLJ, and unlike a film Disney can profit on for essentially forever, a game has a much shorter lifespan.

Look what happened to the last BF. The crap storm around the fact that the full game was really the game plus the season pass, pretty much meaning you had to spend $100 to get the full game. Even though it was still the best selling game of the year (and by far the best selling Star Wars game ever), the gaming community still had a monstrous fit over it. So this time, they said okay, no DLC, all future content will be free. So they monetize the only other way there really is, micro-transactions. It's actually better for the gamers in this instance, as much as I wish it wasn't - that way, everyone gets the entire game experience and all content for $60, and the people that want to dump anywhere from a few bucks to a few thousand dollars (and don't kid yourself, there are enough people that will be dropping thousands on this game that it's going to add up significantly) to progress instantly, can.

It's gamer's demand that games (with ever-rising production costs) are not affected by inflation. Games essentially have not seen any price increase of significance in decades. Hell, I spent $60 for Super Mario Bros. 3 in 1990, and the average first-party NES game back then was $50. And video games never used to go on sale like they do now, either (contractually, they couldn't, even if the retailers wanted to). When companies switched to CDs, the prices remained at $50 until a couple of generations ago, and they are now still steady at $60.

(And don't you dare say, "Well Nintendo has managed to not really do it..." - they do now, and even before they always have been the worst company when it comes to inflated game prices. In fact - you'll have to look it up because you might not know, as it was before you were born, but their price fixing and practices against retailers and consumers were so bad on the NES that the FTC had to get involved and they got into a lot of legal trouble, not to mention that since they have continued selling the same damn games over and over and over on system after system at prices that are roundly ridiculous for the age of the games and the fact that they often use emulators and ROMs they themselves just download off of the freaking internet - literally, it's been proven).

So...be mad at EA. Be ed even. I am. But be ed at the right things. Be ed at the random progression system. But starting out with the complaint that this time, your $60 is getting you access to absolutely *all* the content in the game, the caveat being some people can spend more money to progress their little digital characters more quickly, when last time the complaint was you had to spend $100 to get the complete game, is just nonsensical and just gamers who aren't willing to accept the realities of buying games that cost as much as AAA major feature films.

Personally, I was just fine last time around when BF one had the content spread over the game and the season pass. But there was such uproar, they are doing it this way this time. The costs of making these games has gone up 50-100x, yet the prices have remained virtually the same. That's why so few companies actually stay in the game business for long. Unless you have a massive hit regularly, financially, they can't. The gaming community just can't have it both ways.
 
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AEfx

Well-Known Member
Bloomberg is reporting that 20th Century Fox, Warner Bros. and Universal Pictures are in talks to join Disney Movies Anywhere in an apparent ploy to kill Ultraviolet.

I'll be fine with it as long as the content transfers over, which it likely will. Ultraviolet was a wonderful idea, but unfortunately due to how many companies were involved, it was just mired in complexity for most casual users.

DMA has also been really good at getting the major providers involved, as well. My DMA films show up on my XBOX, on Amazon, on iOS, etc. If done right, it could work out well.

It's funny, though - the age of buying films is just dying, period. Digital is just extending the inevitable. The article says disc sales (I hate that they say "DVD") are down 10%, and digital sales are up 8%, which sounds like people are mostly converting. They aren't. Disc sales still gross far more than digital. The fact is, most people are happy with streaming at the moment, in spite of the fact that long-term, it's extremely problematic.

What will be interesting in the US is when we finally have to start dealing with data caps, like most of the rest of the world has. While we have basically the worst internet infrastructure in the industrialized nations (and even compared to many in the third-world!) we also are one of the only ones to have an AYCE-style service. People aren't going to be loving streaming so much once they realize that they are using up several GB an hour watching content, and they hit their caps part way through the month. It's a miracle it hasn't happened yet, because the broadband companies have already implemented the tech to do it and have run pilots in various areas in the country already. Of course, this doesn't even begin to address the other long term issues like content availability - but that is less tangible to people than caps are going to force their attention on.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Given Disney's recent behavior is it any surprise that that in game upcharges would be added to the Star Wars games.

It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Disney, but the game industry and the fact that gamers aren't willing to spend the amount of money commensurate with what these games cost to make. See above for a longer explanation. ;)
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Given Disney's recent behavior is it any surprise that that in game upcharges would be added to the Star Wars games.
This is what happens when you give Star Wars to EA.
(please don't make me do this, please don't make me play devil's advocate...please...ugh...here goes)

Yes, the way EA has implemented this is stupid and terrible and they deserve what they are getting. But it's not for the reasons you think. The actual valid complaint is getting lost in the din.

The valid complaint is that general progression is tied to random boxes you earn and open (based on the beta). Now, that is VERY important to point out - based on the beta. Leaks have happened that show a different build of the game where it's quite different. If that turns out to be the case, then EA was really, really stupid to have it this way in the beta. The reason this is a bad thing is because you and I can both have equal skill, both play the same length of time, and both get the same number of kills, etc. - and one of us can be further ahead than the other. That is stupid and deserves the ire.

When it comes to DLC and microtransactions - here is the thing. They are here to stay. Well, no, you have two choices. One, live in a world where video games cost a standard $60, as they do, and put up with them (and is demanded by retailers and the game community at large, as well as just about every study/survey ever done), or games have a sliding scale, and a game like BF2 which cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make costs everyone $120 for the standard edition. When the financials are out, I won't be surprised if EA spent more on BF2 than Disney did on TLJ, and unlike a film Disney can profit on for essentially forever, a game has a much shorter lifespan.

Look what happened to the last BF. The crap storm around the fact that the full game was really the game plus the season pass, pretty much meaning you had to spend $100 to get the full game. Even though it was still the best selling game of the year (and by far the best selling Star Wars game ever), the gaming community still had a monstrous fit over it. So this time, they said okay, no DLC, all future content will be free. So they monetize the only other way there really is, micro-transactions. It's actually better for the gamers in this instance, as much as I wish it wasn't - that way, everyone gets the entire game experience and all content for $60, and the people that want to dump anywhere from a few bucks to a few thousand dollars (and don't kid yourself, there are enough people that will be dropping thousands on this game that it's going to add up significantly) to progress instantly, can.

It's gamer's demand that games (with ever-rising production costs) are not affected by inflation. Games essentially have not seen any price increase of significance in decades. Hell, I spent $60 for Super Mario Bros. 3 in 1990, and the average first-party NES game back then was $50. And video games never used to go on sale like they do now, either (contractually, they couldn't, even if the retailers wanted to). When companies switched to CDs, the prices remained at $50 until a couple of generations ago, and they are now still steady at $60.

(And don't you dare say, "Well Nintendo has managed to not really do it..." - they do now, and even before they always have been the worst company when it comes to inflated game prices. In fact - you'll have to look it up because you might not know, as it was before you were born, but their price fixing and practices against retailers and consumers were so bad on the NES that the FTC had to get involved and they got into a lot of legal trouble, not to mention that since they have continued selling the same damn games over and over and over on system after system at prices that are roundly ridiculous for the age of the games and the fact that they often use emulators and ROMs they themselves just download off of the freaking internet - literally, it's been proven).

So...be mad at EA. Be ****ed even. I am. But be ****ed at the right things. Be ****ed at the random progression system. But starting out with the complaint that this time, your $60 is getting you access to absolutely *all* the content in the game, the caveat being some people can spend more money to progress their little digital characters more quickly, when last time the complaint was you had to spend $100 to get the complete game, is just nonsensical and just gamers who aren't willing to accept the realities of buying games that cost as much as AAA major feature films.

Personally, I was just fine last time around when BF one had the content spread over the game and the season pass. But there was such uproar, they are doing it this way this time. The costs of making these games has gone up 50-100x, yet the prices have remained virtually the same. That's why so few companies actually stay in the game business for long. Unless you have a massive hit regularly, financially, they can't. The gaming community just can't have it both ways.
Just like the history of Disney I've looked into, I've also looked into Nintendo and know full well what their practices were during the days of the NES. I also know that I recently bought a complete game from them (Zelda) that gave me hundreds of hours of entertainment for $60 that made me say, "you know what? I will spend $20 for extra content for this game I thoroughly enjoyed for so long." Rather than cutting into the base experience to gauge more money, they expand upon it which is what DLC should be. Also, not a micro transaction in sight for what is supposedly the most expensive game they've ever made.

The complaint about the original Battlefronts Season Pass was that the base game was so bare bones the fact all that content was locked away behind that paywall was extremely frustrating. And please, don't be one of those people who think they need to do crap like this. Rather than bring this on longer, I'll instead point you to the latest episode of "The Jimquisition" on YouTube. Not sure if I can link it here though.
 

Pixieish

Well-Known Member
This is what happens when you give Star Wars to EA.

Just like the history of Disney I've looked into, I've also looked into Nintendo and know full well what their practices were during the days of the NES. I also know that I recently bought a complete game from them (Zelda) that gave me hundreds of hours of entertainment for $60 that made me say, "you know what? I will spend $20 for extra content for this game I thoroughly enjoyed for so long." Also, not a micro transaction in sight for what is supposedly the most expensive game they've ever made.

The complaint about the original Battlefronts Season Pass was that the base game was so bare bones the fact all that content was locked away behind that paywall was extremely frustrating. And please, don't be one of those people who think they need to do crap like this. Rather than bring this on longer, I'll instead point you to the latest episode of "The Jimquisition" on YouTube. Not sure if I can link it here though.

THAT is horrible. At least with Disney Magic Kingdoms, usually only specific characters or attractions are behind the pay wall. For example, in the Aladdin expansion, I believe Iago was behind a paywall but you could work to get everyone else in the pack. That may also be a function that EA decided on...not Disney, or vice versa.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Disney, but the game industry and the fact that gamers aren't willing to spend the amount of money commensurate with what these games cost to make. See above for a longer explanation. ;)
So you are saying they developed a product to sell to people that don't want to or cannot pay for that product??

Wonderful business model.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
So you are saying they developed a product to sell to people that don't want to or cannot pay for that product??

Wonderful business model.
I think what he’s saying is that if they charged $150 for the game people wouldn’t buy it. Instead to make the $150 they want/need to make they are charging $50 for the base game and then sneaking in a bunch of upcharges to get the average customer to spend somewhere around $150 or maybe even more.
 

Pixieish

Well-Known Member
I think what he’s saying is that if they charged $150 for the game people wouldn’t buy it. Instead to make the $150 they want/need to make they are charging $50 for the base game and then sneaking in a bunch of upcharges to get the average customer to spend somewhere around $150 or maybe even more.
Usually WAY more if mobile app paywalls are any example.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
This is what happens when you give Star Wars to EA.

Just like the history of Disney I've looked into, I've also looked into Nintendo and know full well what their practices were during the days of the NES. I also know that I recently bought a complete game from them (Zelda) that gave me hundreds of hours of entertainment for $60 that made me say, "you know what? I will spend $20 for extra content for this game I thoroughly enjoyed for so long." Rather than cutting into the base experience to gauge more money, they expand upon it which is what DLC should be. Also, not a micro transaction in sight for what is supposedly the most expensive game they've ever made.

Using Zelda, the system seller, isn't really the best example - but again, that game cost $80 for the full experience. And because of Nintendo's hardware business, they know that when the Switch 2 comes out in a couple of years, they will be able to sell you that game all over again for $60 by adding a few bells and whistles. They do it to all the Nintendo games, and Nintendo fans are just desensitized to it. That's the "unique" Nintendo model. And let's not even begin to talk about their overpriced hardware. Again, they are a horrible example.

The complaint about the original Battlefronts Season Pass was that the base game was so bare bones the fact all that content was locked away behind that paywall was extremely frustrating. And please, don't be one of those people who think they need to do crap like this. Rather than bring this on longer, I'll instead point you to the latest episode of "The Jimquisition" on YouTube. Not sure if I can link it here though.

The myth that is was barebones really isn't here nor there - I don't think it was, and like I said - they spread the cost out. I spent 100's of hours in that game, and I got my $100 worth. So did most people who complained about the DLC issue.

I've seen that insipid video, and it ignores the truth - the argument is so whiny and immature and, unfortunately, rather typical of the gamer "communities" online. I'm sorry, but yes, I am "one of those people" that isn't a gamer who expects the video game world to stand still price-wise yet deliver games that cost astronomically more to make. You ignored every detail I provided, so this time I'll be succinct:

1) The cost of developing a AAA game has risen so much over the years, that a game like BF2 costs *hundreds of millions of dollars* to make. Even ten years ago, a AAA game rarely had a budget that broke seven figures.

2) The cost of video games to the consumer have been stagnant for decades.

3) The audience who purchases games regularly has shrunk at the same time. Only the bestselling games stand make any profit. And many are losses.

These are facts that the "gaming community" completely ignores. People aren't willing to pay a price out of the gate commensurate with what these games cost to make (BF, and it's Season Pass) and when they are given all the content for one low price, they aren't willing to put up with microtransactions that let other gamers who want to spend money pick up the slack by progressing their little digital characters more quickly.

You cannot have it both ways and still get the quality of game demanded.

Again, I don't like EA and the real issue is the progression system being random in the game itself for everyone - which again, leaks show may not be the case, we won't know until release - and EA deserves some flack if it is true. But it's the spoiled mentality of gamers who simply refuse the facts of what it takes to make these modern games that is to blame. Either pay $100 for a game with all content included, or put up with them moentizing the people who are willing to pay far more.

The video game business is a business like any other, and it cannot sustain unless we just drop the notions of AAA games to begin with, and all start playing indie crap all the time.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
I think what he’s saying is that if they charged $150 for the game people wouldn’t buy it. Instead to make the $150 they want/need to make they are charging $50 for the base game and then sneaking in a bunch of upcharges to get the average customer to spend somewhere around $150 or maybe even more.

Almost, but yes, the right track.

They essentially did that with the last BF game. The complete game really cost $100 - $60/game and $40/season pass. (That said, that was only people who had to have the game on release - within a couple of months you could just wait for a sale and pay $60-70 and get the whole thing, and even a few months beyond that, even cheaper.) There were no microtransactions.

People lost their crap over this. (Yet, I have to point out, the game was still the best selling game of the year, and the best selling Star Wars game of all time, by far.)

So, for BF2, they are putting the entire game and all content for sale at $60. All existing and future content. One price. Done.

However, these "loot boxes" that can make you progress in the game even more quickly (you get some for free, but then will be able to buy as many as you want for cash) are going to be available - "microtransactions" - which basically means you can spend all kinds of money and get a more powerful character more quickly. It's pejoratively refereed to as "Pay 2 Win".

The reason for the "almost" is this - most players will never spend a cent more than the original $60, yet they are getting the entire game (which everyone pretty much agrees is pretty frigging spectacular in terms of content). Those players that want to spend hordes of money to progress their characters more quickly are the ones picking up the slack. People are going to spend $100's and some $1000s of dollars on these boxes because they have too much disposable income and they want to have more powerful characters more quickly. They are called "whales".

So anyone who lays down $60 can experience the entire game, it's essentially just going to take them longer to make their guns more powerful. Yet, people are still cheesed off.

It's the FTP ("free to play") mobile model applied to AAA console games. I don't like that it's a reality, I would much rather just hand them $100 like I did with the last BF game, but the gaming community didn't like it and raised a fit. In mobile games, the whales (a single digit percentage of players) pay for the entire thing to exist, and the vast majority of players (70% on average) play a game for hundreds of hours absolutely free. The 20ish% in between totally free and whales are "dolphins", who spend a few bucks here and there.

With a AAA console game, the base game isn't "free", but it's the same concept.

All that said, in spite of the controversy and the ire of gaming, ahem, "journalists" (i.e. bloggers and YouTubers who make more money the more they cry and complain from appealing to the outrage for advertising clicks), this is still going to be the bestselling game of the year, just like it was last time. It's just a lot of noise from people online who will complain either way.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Usually WAY more if mobile app paywalls are any example.

Minor teminology correction - "paywall" means content like missions, maps, events, etc. - areas of the game that you can't experience without buying something additional. Most mobile games aren't like that. You can play for free forever and have access to the whole thing. The "microtransactions" are when you can spend money to advance within the game more quickly. 70% of people never spend a cent on them.

For example, in the major SW mobile game, Galaxy of Heroes - which is about building teams of characters and fighting them against others - a new character comes out that everyone can unlock for free. But if you want to max out it's level (which is pretty much required to make it competitive) you have to buy overpriced random "packs" that give incrementally get them up to high level. Some people literally spend a grand to do this. Yes, $1000, for one character in a mobile game, to have it first. The "free" players (the vast majority) have to wait a few months for an option to level up the character in-game.

Basically, the only reason to spend money in any of these games is to progress more quickly. I don't particularly like the model myself, but most people aren't willing to spend money on mobile games, period - they expect everything to just be free. Literally, it's seen as a noble thing to use a companies product and never pay them a cent for it.

The gaming business is moving to a model where the people willing to pay the most - the "whales" ( who ironically spend huge amounts of cash, to spend less time playing), are subsidizing the rest of it for everyone else, who wants to play games for free or at a minimal cost.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
So you are saying they developed a product to sell to people that don't want to or cannot pay for that product??

Wonderful business model.

That's a really silly way to look at it.

The game itself, BF2, is being praised to all hell rather unianimously, even by those shrieking the most, just based on the few levels available in beta.

Gamers aren't willing to spend what these games cost on ANY game. This "outrage" thing repeats itself every month or two with nearly all AAA multi-platform games. On mobile games, they expect them to be fully playable for free.

It's not the quality of the games, it's the unrealistic expectations of game consumers that games should somehow be free on mobile or in the case of a console game, not rise in cost. To bring a "local" comparison - the average major publisher game has been $60 for about 12 years now. How much has a WDW vacation gone up in 12 years?

When you add in the fact that most of the "gaming community" who makes this noise online generally skews to teenagers/early 20-somethings (games themselves are attracting an older audience now, but those that sit on the internet and talk about them regularly still skews much younger) who pay for their new games by making little deals at GameStop to trade in their old games and saving up gift-cards from grandma to pay for them to begin with, and the fact that even organized "boycotts" still result in bestselling games and they all still buy them, it's a lot of noise with very, very little effect. It's fed by people like the YouTuber that was mentioned above, who makes his living making YouTube videos, and the more stink they make, the more fires they fan, the more views they get, the more money they earn. These are also the ones that tend to never pay for movies, either - they just download bootleg cam copies when the film comes out, and then perfect digital copies once it's released.

There was just as much complaining about the last Battlefront game, yet it was the #1 selling game of the year, and the best selling Star Wars game of all time. People demand the quality of a AAA game that costs 100's of millions of dollars to make, but are willing to pay less and less for it, if they are willing to pay anything at all.
 

The_Jobu

Well-Known Member
2) The cost of video games to the consumer have been stagnant for decades.

3) The audience who purchases games regularly has shrunk at the same time. Only the bestselling games stand make any profit. And many are losses.

What on Earth are you basing this on?
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Isn't that everyone?

Who the heck wants to pay more when the price of games keeps sneaking higher?

I want to pay what I did for a WDW annual pass ten years ago, but that's not happening - they have practically doubled in price.

It's funny that people don't see how the demands of what they expect to experience in a game have gone up astronomically, along with the price of making that experience, yet think prices should stay the same.

However, that's what EA has done here - and people still aren't happy. BF2 costs $60, the same as every other AAA game ten years ago. For the complete game. Yet it cost a minimum of 10-20x more for them to make. The only difference is, people that want to pay more to speed up the progression of their little digital character can do so, to keep that price the same.

I prefer the other model - that they did with the first BF game. You spend $100 for the game and the season pass, and you get everything and that's it.

It's either, or. To expect consumer prices of a product that is costing many more times money to produce and to be so incredibly higher in graphical quality that people demand, you can't expect them to remain the same price for decades on end.
 

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