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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Timmay

Well-Known Member
If someone disagrees with the current approach it’s more than fair to ask what the alternative is.

You don’t give one, under the guise of “having a life”, so your opposition has no basis.
Those two paragraphs are completely different things. People can be opposed to something and not have an alternative ready to present without the opposition having “no basis.” We may not agree with the opposition, but let’s stop making such broad generalizations.
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
Those two paragraphs are completely different things. People can be opposed to something and not have an alternative ready to present without the opposition having “no basis.” We may not agree with the opposition, but let’s stop making such broad generalizations.

As has been pointed out, many many things have been tried in terms of getting people vaccinated.

Merely being protected from a dangerous virus wasn't enough for some people. Protecting others as well as oneself wasn't enough. Lotteries wasn't enough. Removing mask mandates wasn't enough.

Now we're onto things like making vaccination a requirement for employment, or attending leisure destinations.

If people are still opposed to any or all of these steps, what's next? I don't know doesn't cut it.

If one can't suggest an alternative, are they even part of the conversation? The rest of us will continue to push for things that might work, not just throw our hands up in the air and give up.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
What’s not clear is if these continued decreases are because this COVID-19 wave is ebbing or because some of the people in the recent hospitalization spike are now part of the death toll reported over the last two weeks.

Probably more to do with the uptick in the vaccination rate and the 15,000 people a day who got sick and now have some form of natural immunity.

55% of the state are now vaccinated and probably another 25% have had the virus, it’s not the ideal way to get immunity but for those that survived it works.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
That should have been a requirement from day one.
So far that’s the one part of the new plan that isn’t an actual requirement. In his speech Biden did say he would encourage states and businesses to require proof of vaccination for large group gatherings but there isn’t anything concrete that I saw in there requiring it. I don’t know if there is even authority for the Federal government to actually require private businesses to ask for proof of vaccination.
 

Timmay

Well-Known Member
As has been pointed out, many many things have been tried in terms of getting people vaccinated.

Merely being protected from a dangerous virus wasn't enough for some people. Protecting others as well as oneself wasn't enough. Lotteries wasn't enough. Removing mask mandates wasn't enough.

Now we're onto things like making vaccination a requirement for employment, or attending leisure destinations.

If people are still opposed to any or all of these steps, what's next? I don't know doesn't cut it.

If one can't suggest an alternative, are they even part of the conversation? The rest of us will continue to push for things that might work, not just throw our hands up in the air and give up.
Great. Still doesn’t mean someone’s opposition to something has no basis simply because they offer no alternative. We may find the opposition unthinkable and easily dismissed…but that still doesn’t equate to it having no basis.
 

Figgy1

Well-Known Member
My step-dad went to the Dr. Friday because he's been having low fever and running nose for a week now. He's early 70s, vaccinated, and works at Home Depot with a mask. Doctor didn't with do a covid test because he said likelihood of a breakthrough case is minimal and said it's just allergies. Are the chances pretty low? Sure, but not exactly comforting to make an assumption given his age and if the 8 month vaccination period holds, he's due for a booster next week.
Keeping my fingers crossed that it's just the usual pita seasonal allergies.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Great. Still doesn’t mean someone’s opposition to something has no basis simply because they offer no alternative. We may find the opposition unthinkable and easily dismissed…but that still doesn’t equate to it having no basis.
I think for me this Is the situation. We have a completely unacceptable situation with covid right now. The status quo is not an option. The current administration is trying something new. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn‘t but we need to try something. When someone says they don’t like this plan that’s a fair opinion to have, but it’s also fair to ask what them what the alternative should be. Based on the posting history of the person involved and the answer given I assume they feel the status quo is fine and we don’t need a new plan. To me that’s unacceptable, but I suppose that’s just my opinion and someone could legitimately feel that way. Good thing the people in charge aren’t going with the status quo.
 

Timmay

Well-Known Member
I think for me this Is the situation. We have a completely unacceptable situation with covid right now. The status quo is not an option. The current administration is trying something new. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn‘t but we need to try something. When someone says they don’t like this plan that’s a fair opinion to have, but it’s also fair to ask what them what the alternative should be. Based on the posting history of the person involved and the answer given I assume they feel the status quo is fine and we don’t need a new plan. To me that’s unacceptable, but I suppose that’s just my opinion and someone could legitimately feel that way. Good thing the people in charge aren’t going with the status quo.
Well, I do keep saying we need a clear and definable goal. I personally am more apt to get fully behind most anything that does. To me that’s what gives something legitimacy, and I suppose proves we are all different.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
As has been pointed out, many many things have been tried in terms of getting people vaccinated.

Merely being protected from a dangerous virus wasn't enough for some people. Protecting others as well as oneself wasn't enough. Lotteries wasn't enough. Removing mask mandates wasn't enough.

Now we're onto things like making vaccination a requirement for employment, or attending leisure destinations.

If people are still opposed to any or all of these steps, what's next? I don't know doesn't cut it.

If one can't suggest an alternative, are they even part of the conversation? The rest of us will continue to push for things that might work, not just throw our hands up in the air and give up.
The answer is not a mandate via executive order. Follow the established Constitional process.
 

dovetail65

Well-Known Member
There's nothing unconstitutional about Biden's actions. There's also nothing stopping congress from acting too.
Exactly, he is not mandating a needle in the arm he is mandating that if one does not get the vaccine that they only get tested.
I had FOX on 8 hours today and guess what they yelled andscreamed all day long, but forgot to mention to their listeners that anyone that does not want to get vaccinated only needs get tested once a week, which happens to be free in 90% of all states! My daughter got a free 1 day rapid test yesterday, no big deal!

The answer is not a mandate via executive order. Follow the established Constitutional process.
WRONG, the Feds have been doing it for more 100 years! Vaccinations are as American as Apple pie.

1905 Supreme court stated Vaccination can be mandatory:


Supreme court reiterates it again in 1922 applying it to schools:




Small Pox History:



Vaccination mandates In school since the 1850's:

 
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GoofGoof

Premium Member
There's nothing unconstitutional about Biden's actions. There's also nothing stopping congress from acting too.
It’s like talking to a wall. Some people think if they say it enough times it’s true. At this point let the lawsuits be filed and the courts decide. Many companies are in the process of changing their policies already and are very happy to have the backing of the Federal government to support a policy that will help keep their workers safe and keep workers on site being productive. Having this requirement is a big help for companies that feared they could lose some workers if they mandated vaccinations. Now its even playing field for everyone unless you are a very small business. It’s a big win for large companies.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
There's nothing unconstitutional about Biden's actions. There's also nothing stopping congress from acting too.
OSHA rules have been, until this point, post employment work rules. Now OSHA rules are pre employment work rules. Big difference.

Additionally, the Justice system was predicated on the principle of guaranteeing Life, Liberty, and Pusuit of Happiness except when ruled by a court if law.

The Judicial system can by trial by a jury:
Take life, in case of capital punishment
Take your money
Incarcerate you

Now by executive decree, you can lose your livelihood without trial.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
OSHA rules have been, until this point, post employment work rules. Now OSHA rules are pre employment work rules. Big difference.

Additionally, the Justice system was predicated on the principle of guaranteeing Life, Liberty, and Pusuit of Happiness except when ruled by a court if law.

The Judicial system can by trial by a jury:
Take life, in case of capital punishment
Take your money
Incarcerate you

Now by executive decree, you can lose your livelihood without trial.
The OSHA rule (which we haven’t even seen yet) is expected to require employers to test employees weekly for Covid and will allow an exception for fully vaccinated people to not be tested. It has no bearing on pre-employment work rules. There’s nothing that prevents a company from hiring an unvaccinated person and there’s nothing to prevent a company from keeping an unvaccinated worker who chooses to be tested weekly. What you are saying is pure fantasy.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
OSHA rules have been, until this point, post employment work rules. Now OSHA rules are pre employment work rules. Big difference.

Additionally, the Justice system was predicated on the principle of guaranteeing Life, Liberty, and Pusuit of Happiness except when ruled by a court if law.

The Judicial system can by trial by a jury:
Take life, in case of capital punishment
Take your money
Incarcerate you

Now by executive decree, you can lose your livelihood without trial.
You always could lose your job without any type of legal process. Most employment is at will, which means you can be fired for a good reason, a bad reason or no reason at all unless you are in a class of persons protected against discrimination. Examples of protected classes include race, age, disability and such. Unvaccinated people are not a protected class. There is no right to continue in a job.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
I don't care how it's done at this point. You all got shots as kids, the only difference is now you're aware of it. And some are crying just as loudly as they did as babies.

You'd think we were asking people to cut off a toe.

The country has demonstrated it can't act in it's own best self-interest. Therefore, we must make laws for the lowest common denominator, per usual.

If you think rights are being violated, you don't know what either of those words mean.
 

ArmoredRodent

Well-Known Member
OSHA rules have been, until this point, post employment work rules. Now OSHA rules are pre employment work rules. Big difference.

Additionally, the Justice system was predicated on the principle of guaranteeing Life, Liberty, and Pusuit of Happiness except when ruled by a court if law.

The Judicial system can by trial by a jury:
Take life, in case of capital punishment
Take your money
Incarcerate you

Now by executive decree, you can lose your livelihood without trial.
Wow. I try to be respectful, but literally every sentence here is wrong. I'll try to give the benefit of the doubt here, but I apologize in advance if this seems disjointed; unavoidable since the sentences literally make no sense to someone who understands the system and proposal being "explained" here.

I have no idea what this first sentence is supposed to mean, but maybe it's talking about the new vaccination rules applying before you go to work for someone. I discussed in a post above how the rules will actually be developed. But this sentence doesn't describe how OSHA rules work anyway; they are rules on the workplace, and are likely to say something like "workers in XYZ-type workplaces must be vaccinated or otherwise meet the following exceptions." It may be that the effect of that kind of workplace rule is that the employer won't hire people who won't get vaccinated or otherwise protect themselves and other workers, but that would certainly be a "post employment" rule, if I'm understanding this sentence at all. In any event, OSHA rules have always said things like: "you must wear this harness when you work on a roof, or you can't work there." They are PREVENTATIVE, not remedial. So if the employer says: "you'll have to wear a harness on the roof or I can't hire you," that doesn't convert what you're calling a "post employment" workplace rule into a "pre-employment rule."

If the second sentence means most people are entitled to Due Process in most cases (that is, the federal and state governments are bound by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments' requirements for Due Process), then yes, if you VIOLATE a rule, you get Due Process before punishment. You can't just go around suing to block rules that don't affect you; courts will throw you out because the defendant and the beneficiaries of the rule are as entitled to Due Process as you would be. In technical terms, you would not have "standing" to get a ruling by a court. The constitutional and statutory checks-and-balances that apply to a government agency's rulemaking also provide for a different type of Due Process; to the extent that applies in the OSHA case, it would be in the development and enforcement of the rule, and applies to the regulatory system of the Executive Branch, not, in the first instance, to the Judicial Branch. Otherwise, I'm not sure what's being said here. It is not the purpose of the Judicial Branch (except in a few situations) to make law; it is to decide "what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 1803.

The Judicial Branch can do far more than the three things you posit in the fractured third sentence here, and can only do the three things you say under certain specific limitations. For example, the recent Texas Abortion law decision by the Supreme Court, rejecting an application for an emergency injunction against the Texas law, can be boiled down to a simple, easy-to-understand rule: a court can only order relief against someone who has a chance to present a defense or case before the court, and a court literally has no power to order people who are not represented in court to do or not do something. That's what an "injunction" is: a court order to do or not do something. The problem with the Texas law is what's called "the fallacy of erasure," which is a fancy way of saying a court ruling that something is unconstitutional doesn't erase the unconstitutional law; it just can't be enforced. You can't enjoin a law; you can only enjoin those who would enforce the law not to do so. And a court can certainly act without a jury, especially in emergencies, and on constitutional matters. Suits against the federal government are usually decided without a jury trial. See, for example, 28 U.S.C. 2402; "Denial of jury trial in such circumstances does not contravene the Seventh Amendment. 'It hardly can be maintained that under the common law in 1791 jury trial was a matter of right for persons asserting claims against the sovereign.'" Galloway v. United States, 319 U.S. 372, 388 (1943).

But none of that applies to the OSHA rules at this point; the whole "pre-enforcement review" issue that derailed the Texas law literally doesn't exist before the proposed OSHA rule is at least drafted. In part, that's because courts can't issue "advisory opinions" talking about hypothetical situations. The Constitution forbids it. You have to have a concrete factual situation and specific injuries to have "standing" to even sue to block or affect a rule.

And you cannot lose your livelihood by an Executive Order, at least not any more. That happened to Americans of Japanese heritage during World War II, when President Franklin Roosevelt's order gave authority to the War Department, and many years later, this Nation apologized, paid money damages, and took steps to never do that again. That's not what's being talked about here; what's being discussed is a government agency using its congressionally-delegated authority to do something, hopefully in a constitutionally-appropriate manner. If it doesn't, there are available judicial remedies. For example, the recent Alabama Association of Realtors Supreme Court rejection of the moratorium on evictions was based on the CDC not having the authority to do that, even during the pandemic. "The District Court produced a comprehensive opinion concluding that the statute on which the CDC relies does not grant it the authority it claims." No. 21A23, Slip op. at 1 (per curiam).

Again, each of these sentences is wrong, and apparently based on an incomplete understanding of both the current proposals and the American system of government. I would strongly suggest that you refrain from making flat-out declarations of what the law is until you are sworn in as a federal judge and follow the rules to be sure you're talking about the right thing. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but it would save us both from some difficulties.
 
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