Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[danlb_2000]

Pennsylvania didn't have a summer spike but wasn't there a lot shut down over the summer? I could be wrong but I have a monthly business call with somebody who lives in PA and I remember her making comments about restrictions. As for the present, for 7 day rolling average, PA is currently at 521 cases per million population and FL is currently at 363 cases per million. This while your Governor is doing everything measured, sensibly and correctly and our Governor is a bumbling idiot doing everything wrong. If you believe that Wolf is doing the right thing then how can you argue that DeSantis is doing the wrong thing based upon the recent data?

Total cases per million since the start of the pandemic:

Florida: 46,528
PA: 29,060

 

[Parker in NYC]

I'm not a denier or a minimizer, but I am waiting for more studies/statistics to see if the long-lasting effects end up being more prevalent than with any other virus. All viruses have a small percentage of people who get chronic conditions.

Just not enough time has passed to get a true sense, also we need true number comparing how many were positive with no chronic conditions vs how many were positive with chronic conditions as result of Covid.

Right now you are heaving a lot about it because they are reporting on it. Not to say it doesn't happen, but is it worse with Covid? We just don't know yet.

Understandable. We'll just take our chances 'til then. I have a friend who's a fairly high-profile Broadway performer who will never be able to perform again due to the toll COVID took on his lungs. I can't speak for everyone but I'm concerned. Especially since he has the kind of bankroll that will protect him from losing everything he has but so many others don't.

 

[dreday3]

Understandable. We'll just take our chances 'til then.

Was that sarcasm? I'm not sure what that means.

What chances am I advocating taking by saying we need more time to see what types and prevalence of chronic conditions people end up with? Did I tell people to take off masks and chuck it all?

 

[Parker in NYC]

Was that sarcasm? I'm not sure what that means.

What chances am I advocating taking?

I edited my post. And yes, it was sarcasm because it's the usual song and dance and I don't know how else to respond to the usual song and dance.

 

[dreday3]

I edited my post. And yes, it was sarcasm because it's the usual song and dance and I don't know how else to respond to the usual song and dance.

If you'd like you can read back my posts and see where I stand in regards to Covid.

I'm sorry about your friend.
I still don't think we have true numbers of people who are going to to be affected by the chronic conditions. I went out of my way to say that I'm not saying it doesn't happen, we just don't know how prevalent.

If you find what I said offensive, then I think you will find most anyone's opinions offensive and we should probably not discuss.

 

[Parker in NYC]

If you'd like you can read back my posts and see where I stand in regards to Covid.

I'm sorry about your friend.
I still don't think we have true numbers of people who are going to to be affected by the chronic conditions. I went out of my way to say that I'm not saying it doesn't happen, we just don't know how prevalent.

If you find that offensive, then I think you will find most anyone's opinions offensive.

You were doing great until that last line. I'll consider it an incomplete forward pass.

 

[dreday3]

You were doing great until that last line. I'll consider it an incomplete forward pass.

No, I'm making the decision that I don't think our conversations would be very fruitful.

Have a good day!

 

[Parker in NYC]

No, I'm making the decision that I don't think our conversations would be very fruitful.

Have a good day!

In summation, anything we can do to advocate for and inspire the need for more awareness (since it isn't working for a lot of folks) that death isn't the worst thing that can happen, is completely negated by the idea that we just don't know the facts regarding what the effects will be months/years/decades down the line. Got it. How many more months do we need to avoid these conversations?

 

[WillWrambles]

Total cases per million since the start of the pandemic:

Florida: 46,528
PA: 29,060

I’m starting to hope we can do a recall election.

 

[DisneyCane]

However, setting a tone form the top that Covid restrictions aren’t necessary and then blocking localities from having their own restrictions is damaging. You can defend your guy all day long on it but he’s wrong on this. Dead wrong.

If you are referring to Desantis' executive order, it does not block localities from having their own restrictions. It prevents certain restrictions like shutting down any business. It also, as I mentioned before, does not allow for restaurants to be restricted to less than 50% of indoor dining capacity. There can still be local restrictions and mandates to provide for social distancing and whatever else.

It also suspends the collection of fines against individuals for COVID-related violations. The new mayor of Broward County recently sent an email that indicated the Governor's order does not prevent the County from issuing fines, just that they can't collect them while the order is in effect. It does not prevent any locality from fining and collecting fines against businesses for violation of restrictions.

You are misreading both the tone and the legalities of his order. With respect to the mandate that you focus on, in the areas of FL that I've spent time in (Southeast and Central/Near Disney), the overwhelming majority of people do what you want them to do anyway. Even without mandates, national businesses have set their own policy and, despite a handful of youtube clips, compliance with those policies is well over 90% from my personal observations.

 

[dreday3]

In summation, anything we can do to advocate for and inspire the need for more awareness (since it isn't working for a lot of folks) that death isn't the worst thing that can happen, is completely negated by the idea that we just don't know the facts regarding what the effects will be months/years/decades down the line. Got it. How many more months do we need to avoid these conversations?

You really can't handle if someone doesn't think the way you do, can you? Ever hear the phrase about "eating your own?". I'm on your side friend.

I didn't negate it, but I did say we need to know more facts about it. Everyone should still wear their masks, follow the rules and get the vaccine when able.

I don't know what else you are looking for, but the original question-what do we think about the chronic conditions - I answered what I thought. You chose to make it some personal attack on yourself and your friend.

I can't stand hyperbole when trying to have a real discussion about serious topics.

 

[Parker in NYC]

You really can't handle if someone doesn't think the way you do, can you?

I didn't negate it, but I did say we need to know more facts about it. Everyone should still wear their masks, follow the rules and get the vaccine when able.

I don't know what else you are looking for, but the original questions, is what do we think about the chronic conditions. I answered what I thought. You chose to make it some personal attack on yourself and your friend.

I can't stand hyperbole when trying to have a real discussion about serious topics.

I'm saying that maybe all of these charts about hospitalizations and death aren't the kinds of things that have been working too well with much of the populace. That's all. That isn't hyperbole, it's the fact that we're 9 months into this mess and people can't see beyond those statistics. What's the harm in that?

This isn't hyperbole and don't you dare say that I don't know how to have a discussion about a serious topic. I'm just wondering why 9 months later, the IDEA that maybe a different perspective broadcast to the average joe on the street could possibly be influential in rethinking the need for safety measures. But you've made it pretty clear that it's business as usual until we know more. 9 more months of business as usual. Have a lovely day.

But I see LAKESHOW and rowrbazzle and co. are in agreement with you, and as far as the latter is concerned, I have deep respect for their opinions. Maybe they just handle themselves with more clarity and grace.

 

[DisneyCane]

Total cases per million since the start of the pandemic:

Florida: 46,528
PA: 29,060

There was a long period where PA had much more severe restrictions in place than FL, especially during the summer spike in FL. Those numbers, combined with the current situation add credence to my opinion that severe restrictions serve to delay spread, not prevent spread. Once the restrictions are relaxed, the virus returns to natural behavior.

Also, some of that discrepancy in cases could possibly be due to more testing in FL earlier in the pandemic. Note that I didn't say all, I said some. In fatalities per million population for the pandemic, FL is at 866 and PA is at 831. Either the case fatality rate is inexplicably much higher in PA (2.86% vs. 1.86% in FL, 53% higher) or there were a lot of undetected cases in PA.

 

[dreday3]

I'm saying that maybe all of these charts about hospitalizations and death aren't the kinds of things that have been working too well with much of the populace. That's all. That isn't hyperbole, it's the fact that we're 9 months into this mess and people can't see beyond those statistics. What's the harm in that?

This isn't hyperbole and don't you dare say that I don't know how to have a discussion about a serious topic. I'm just wondering why 9 months later, the IDEA that maybe a different perspective broadcast to the average joe on the street could possibly be influential in rethinking the need for safety measures. But you've made it pretty clear that it's business as usual until we know more. 9 more months of business as usual. Have a lovely day.

But I see LAKESHOW and rowrbazzle and co. are in agreement with you, and as far as the latter is concerned, I have deep respect for their opinions. Maybe they just handle themselves with more clarity and grace.

I don't know what your last sentence means. But if by business as usual you mean, keep wearing the masks, don't gather, social distance and try to limit travel, then yes, business as usual. I thought I was answering a question about chronic conditions. Apparently it went deeper than that and perhaps I'm missing a backstory.

You don't like my posting style I guess. That's okay! There's a lid for every pot.

 

[Parker in NYC]

I don't know what your last sentence means.

You don't like my posting style I guess. That's okay! There's a lid for every pot.

What about my other dozen or so sentences? I really want an answer to why it would be so destructive to share with the public the risk of side effects over hospitalization and death percentages which haven't done a great job -- or have been picked apart (as in this thread) and proven that they aren't helpful. What is the problem with that? It's a simple question. Whether or not we have the data on it, I'm saying that from an emotional perspective, rather than a clinical, the side-effects could be more persuasive as to the risks. Is someone going to come back in a few months and say something like... "If we hadn't fear-mongered over side effects, we'd be in a better place now?" when it isn't fear-mongering whatsoever? They're already saying that about what has transpired.

 

[dreday3]

What about my other dozen or so sentences? I really want an answer to why it would be so destructive to share with the public the risk of side effects over hospitalization and death percentages which haven't done a great job -- or have been picked apart (as in this thread) and proven that they aren't helpful. What is the problem with that? It's a simple question. Whether or not we have the data on it, I'm saying that from an emotional perspective, rather than a clinical, the side-effects could be more persuasive as to the risks. Is someone going to come back in a few months and say something like... "If we hadn't fear-mongered over side effects, we'd be in a better place now?" when it isn't fear-mongering whatsoever? They're already saying that about what has transpired.

I answered your other sentences in my post.

I don't think I ever said that the public shouldn't know about side effects. I said we don't know the true scope of them yet. And then you were trying to insult me I think. And now it's getting silly and we should stop derailing the thread.

 

[GoofGoof]

There was a long period where PA had much more severe restrictions in place than FL, especially during the summer spike in FL. Those numbers, combined with the current situation add credence to my opinion that severe restrictions serve to delay spread, not prevent spread. Once the restrictions are relaxed, the virus returns to natural behavior.

Also, some of that discrepancy in cases could possibly be due to more testing in FL earlier in the pandemic. Note that I didn't say all, I said some. In fatalities per million population for the pandemic, FL is at 866 and PA is at 831. Either the case fatality rate is inexplicably much higher in PA (2.86% vs. 1.86% in FL, 53% higher) or there were a lot of undetected cases in PA.

Or the deaths in PA were early on as we were hit hard in March and we didn’t know as much about the vulnerability of long term care facilities. The percent of deaths from LT care is much higher in PA than FL since the 1st wave came later and there was time to prepare better. Since you love picking only stats that support your position try taking deaths per capita from May until present.

You are also wrong that PA had much more restrictions than FL. It’s just not true. They did have a statewide mask mandate (which has no impact on businesses). Restaurants were open, gyms, schools, just about every aspect of the economy just as much as FL. Hershey park was open just as much as WDW or Universal. The only exception is PA never fully opened bars and clubs. Bars could be open with indoor seating but no standing room bar service. People had to be seated at tables that were properly distanced. So if your definition of severe restrictions is no standing room at the bar then I guess that’s true. Didn’t FL eventually shut down bars over the summer during the spike? Funny how we forget what actually happened.

 

[GoofGoof]

If you are referring to Desantis' executive order, it does not block localities from having their own restrictions. It prevents certain restrictions like shutting down any business. It also, as I mentioned before, does not allow for restaurants to be restricted to less than 50% of indoor dining capacity. There can still be local restrictions and mandates to provide for social distancing and whatever else.

It also suspends the collection of fines against individuals for COVID-related violations. The new mayor of Broward County recently sent an email that indicated the Governor's order does not prevent the County from issuing fines, just that they can't collect them while the order is in effect. It does not prevent any locality from fining and collecting fines against businesses for violation of restrictions.

You are misreading both the tone and the legalities of his order. With respect to the mandate that you focus on, in the areas of FL that I've spent time in (Southeast and Central/Near Disney), the overwhelming majority of people do what you want them to do anyway. Even without mandates, national businesses have set their own policy and, despite a handful of youtube clips, compliance with those policies is well over 90% from my personal observations.

That’s good for those areas. I have family on both the East coast of FL, Naples and the Tampa area and they don’t report the same compliance. My FIL said when he goes to the store he says it’s about 50% compliance on masks. But, if most people are complying anyway why not mandate it to capture the rest? It’s a wink, wink, nod, nod to the denier crowd that it’s OK to pretend the virus doesn‘t exist IMHO.

 

[Jenny72]

I remember once reading about a campaign to discourage drunk driving in young people. The author said, don't focus on deaths because people can't envision that happening to themselves, and they don't really fear it. Talk about the high schoolers who are disfigured from accidents, who become quadriplegic or suffer disfiguring burns, because that is what they can envision and want to avoid.

I wonder if there is something similar going on here. People figure they aren't likely to die, or maybe they just think "if God says it's my time, then ok," but they don't typically think "If God thinks it's my time to rely on public assistance for six months or longer, then so be it. If God says it's time for my teeth to fall out painlessly because of vascular damage, I accept that." I actually think focusing on the long-haulers of Covid and the non-life-threatening effects would help compliance.

 

[Chi84]

I read this the other day and thought it was interesting.

Small Gatherings Spread the Virus, but Are They Causing the Surge? (Published 2020)

Yes, the coronavirus can be transmitted over cocktails and dinners. But these get-togethers may not account for the huge rise in cases.

www.nytimes.com

Many interesting points in that article. As the virus becomes more widespread, it's more difficult to pinpoint where someone was infected.

As stated in the article, some restrictions make no sense apart from the need for uniform enforceability. Our local arboretum requires people to wear masks as they pass each other on the trails even though there is no evidence the virus can be transmitted in that brief a time, outdoors, from several feet away.

People seem to have lost perspective. In reaction to the information about asymptomatic spread, they went from behaving as though anyone could have the virus (sensible) to believing everyone did have the virus (unreasonable). The last I heard, a little under 4% of the population has tested positive and the CDC has estimated twice as many may be infected. (If I'm wrong about that, sorry, but I'm sure someone will come along and correct it.) That leaves over 92% of the US population not infected. That's probably the reason for the article's finding that small gatherings may not be driving the spread - the chances of anyone being infected at such a gathering are quite low.

The original message about this virus still holds true. It is imperative to take all available measures to stop the spread because the size of the US population and limited hospital beds and healthcare resources will quickly be overwhelmed even by a small percentage of the population needing treatment. But the risk of the average person becoming infected is still quite low. I do everything I'm supposed to in terms of staying home as much as possible, wearing a mask when I'm out of the house, being careful about what I touch and washing hands, using sanitizer, etc. I'm careful, but not worried.